Yes, soundstage depth behind the speakers, how can we improve this, and what equipment is most important for this?
Deeper speakers have more sound depth?
Toe-in speakers makes it worse?
Has tube quality something to do with it?
Cables not, that is a fact!
Combination/match preamp/amp?
Distance speakers from backwall have impact, that is also a fact!
Before I had a unison research sinfonia integrated(2×ecc82+2×ecc83 +4×6550) and the depth was much better, the depth behind the speakers was about 6 to 8 foot behind the speakers by estimate.
Now I have a Coincident statement line stage mk2(2×101D) with triode corporation trx-m300(2×310A+1×274B+1×300B’s) amps, and it is maybe half that??
Everyone many thank’s, you all brought me wise things to do, and learned me a lot , so I understand more about how and why.
First thing will be shuffeling around with the speakers and treat the music with roomtreatment.
In the future the coincident statement speaker mk2 line stage gets competition from an other line stage, maybe a Supratek Cabernet DHT, and will probably leave the building, because the mid-high is a bit too much.
The triodes trx-m300 ’s will get takatsuki’s 274b(anyone want to sell a pair?) and some new western electric 300b’s(offers?)!
The 310A’s, I don’t know if I can replace them with western electric’s?(anyone with a spare quad for sale?)
Now it’s time to enjoy the music and not think of equipment 😁.
I just realized you have a photo of your system under your profile. You want a deeper sound stage… remove the equipment from between your speakers and add dampening material behind the system. See my system. My soundstage goes behind my wall and is separated from my speakers.
Setup 100 cent. Need find proper distance from wall. My rockport 15 feet from front and 6 from side dimension crazy good. Rel stack 8 feet in room play with that distance but I move across globe so look for simple system for new place. Look for japan horn.
Once you get your system to sound like flesh and blood performers in room chances are you'll love being closer to performers. The fact you need them to be at distance from you is sign of something amiss. Your new amp and pre are higher resolving than prior setup, this is exposing some flaw elsewhere. Nothing wrong with your equipment here, both are top flight performers!
I believe you have nailed it. The OP's current equipment is really top notch and in my opinion actually providing the more real or natural presentation. However I do recognize that if a more recessed sound stage is desired then go for it. Individual preference is a critical factor.
Headphones is a good startingpoint for people who want to start the hifi hobby, you learn cheaply about a lot aspects about sound. It safes a lot $$ in the end.
My room almost sounds symmetrical, means the soundstage is left and right way outside the speakers, depend on recording but sometimes about 4 foot. Q-sound recordings are also 90% symmetrical and completly left and right of me, almost behind me.
Vocals are between the speakers, a bit behind. Instruments and vocals on left or right speaker are little forward. With a choir in a church or an Orchestra I was used to hear(with the Unison Research Sinfonia) it mostly behind the speakers also wide, you could hear the room or church room in the recording like a big cloud. Now that is quit flat, not behind not forward, wide yes! I like live performance a bit upfront and choir/Orchestra a bit with room behind. The Unison had a deeper, but absolute no wider ss, and is a bit darker sounding but very comprehensive, but not as detailed. Give me warmth, musicality, live, micro/macro dynamics😁.
Cables ac are jps power ac+ for amps and cardas golden reference for pre and jps the digital ac for dac.
Links are PhantomCable gold and Nordost Frey2...all rca.
Speakercables are PhantomCable gold.
The frey will go...too detailed and not comprehensive and musical enough.
Ac is clean, not much around here...small village.
Headphones is a good startingpoint for people who want to start the hifi hobby, you learn cheaply about a lot aspects about sound. It safes a lot $$ in the end.
How far are the speakers from the wall (behind the speakers)
How far away from the listening position is the wall behind the listening position
RE: your statement -
Cables not, that is a fact!
By that - Do you mean - you believe cables will not impact image?
I’m just wondering, because my cables have made the biggest impact to the imaging in my system - much more than anything else - for both digital and analogue components. But I had to get the right cables :-).
So I am also curious to know - what cables are you using?
My soundstage create also imaging filling the room in some recordings more and in some other less, and an intimate impression like in my 7 headphones and better...I will neverr use them anymore...The sound is near me like with an headphone but in the room out of my head and disconnected from the speakers complketely...
If there is any connection between the sound and the speakers, your room is not under control...
@klappertjedundasAre your images dimensional, in that they have proportional width and depth. If they are fully dimensional ss positioning shouldn't be much bother. Sounds to me like you're getting FLAT and FORWARD ss, that would be a bother. There was recent thread here that asked specifically about where vocals located in relation to speaker front baffle, I recall most members systems ss located just behind front baffles. This is not abnormal ss!
I hear two perspectives with good system setups. One is more forward ss, illusion of performers in room, second is more recessed ss, illusion of performers in studio or recording venue. You may be person who prefers second perspective. Or, your image dimensionality is lacking.
How did the imaging from the Unison sound comparatively to present setup did individual images have more depth. I'd find it hard to believe that push pull would have greater dimensional imaging than present setup. Your should have top flight imaging with your pre and 300b amp!
Have you attended to AC in your room, therefore, dedicated circuits, conditioning if needed, power cords? Bad AC greatly affects ss and imaging.
One can also manipulate ss with speaker positioning, further out into room would help deepen stage, more toe in could help. Room treatments, front wall behind speaker important, reflective surfaces would bring ss forward, diffusion and/or absorption would be worth playing with. I know of two treatments I can guarantee will manipulate your ss to greatest effect I've experienced, one is Synergistic HFT, the other Schumann Resonators. Put a SR on front wall, I guarantee it will suck that phantom center image rearward.
In the end, you may just be one of those people preferring more recessed ss, but this usually sign something about sound quality is bothersome. Forward ss can sound in your face if sound quality not exactly right. Once you get your system to sound like flesh and blood performers in room chances are you'll love being closer to performers. The fact you need them to be at distance from you is sign of something amiss. Your new amp and pre are higher resolving than prior setup, this is exposing some flaw elsewhere. Nothing wrong with your equipment here, both are top flight performers!
Speakers carefully positioned. I like my Nola Boxers aimed straight ahead, maybe about seven feet away from my ears, at a height that has the tweets at ear level. A good room. Enough furniture to deaden the joint a little but not put it to sleep.
And positioning the speakers will not do.... It is only an elementary basic necessity that will not create soundstage...
A room acoustic control and treatment will do...
Dont upgrade with costly gear to improve soundstage.... the gear cannot replace acoustic...It is consumers market conditioning...snake oil sellers.... For sure some gear are better than other one but NONE could replace acoustic control....Acoustic is science...
thank's for explaning...the guy from who I bought the coincident and the Triode's had a very small room and the SS was very forward, I thought it was his room, but it was the amps and his room. The coincident is dht, shall a Supratek Cabernet dht be better, because this one is not 100% dht?
your knowledge is very good I see!
Roomtreatment is always a good investment...in the near future I will start with this.
still the question is it the coincident or the Triode's, the tubes? the triodes are based on a western electric 91a or b.....anyone familiar with this amps and how they do soundstage depth?
the speakers have proven they can do extreme soundstage also in depth.
You obviously need good quality equipment… speakers and electronics. Then you need ample room behind the speakers, appropriate rear wall (behind speakers) dampening… which is speaker dependent, and careful appropriate toe in.
My speakers are known for their ability to disappear. After having them for a while I noticed the didn’t and the soundstage was constricted. So I did some adjustments to the toe in… voilà soundstage widened and deepened and the speakers disappeared.
Great imaging that comes to mind… Wilson Audio, Audio Research, Audio Physics, Rowland, Merlin, I am sure there are a lot more…. Ribbon and planar speakers… but above all WORK. Positioning and room treatments.
Amp/speaker synergy, and room treatments/acoustics go a long way for sure just as other have noted. The last piece to my puzzle was the realization that in my room the soundstage was improved when I increased the distance between my speakers by one foot.
Your setup similar to me, I also have Coincident Statement MKII and custom build 300B monoblocks, extreme modded Klipschorn. My ss pretty much like yours, most recordings balance of sound just behind front baffle of speaker. But this sounds extremely natural to me, plenty of image dimensionality and image layering, images just closer to me than I've heard in some systems. Klipshcorns and required placement certainly have something to do with this.
I also have Coincident 845, had Prima Luna Dialogue Four, have used Denafrips Hyperion, Musical Fidelity M2si with Klipschorns. Also have Merlin VSM-MM, again with extreme mods, used these with two different 845 SET. Also Joule Electra LA100MkIII, Schitt Saga+ pres, and finally dac direct with number of dacs. In all cases my ss has been centered just behind front baffles of both speakers. This would suggest my room and room treatments dictating ss to large effect vs. equipment.
With Merlins I could manipulate ss depth to larger extent, I used room treatments, toe in, speaker placement. Ultimately, I prefer more forward, ss, I've had previous systems where ss more recessed, just didn't have the immediacy and extension into room I prefer. I've even gone to using various room treatments with intent to extend ss into room, I go for sound immersion.
SS placement doesn't matter that much to me as long as I have image dimensionality, images are what supplies the depth. I prefer the performers closer to me.
It also may be true DHT and SET have inherently more forward SS, I've heard this mentioned by others. Certainly part of what I hear as immediacy in these tubes.
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