I’m looking high and low for speakers with the following attributes:
1. Wide and deep soundstage. Speakers can disappear from the soundstage. 2. Decent imaging. 3. Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. 4. Costs less than $10k.
I'm not saying only.... you could also go with efficient speakers with large woofers. those 2 options are your only route to take for the ultimate in dynamics. And again I'm not sure about the Jbl horns that you heard but normally horns actually produce far less distortion than other speakers.
For me the design is not relevant at all I am looking for sound not for a furniture. I will not hesitate to buy an ugly design speaker if it sounds right to me .
I can definitely agree the recording is very important. I can also see why somebody may say horns are not for them as they are too big and too expensive. But don't dismiss them as honky and not worthy of a good sound, that is blatantly wrong!
Yes, the recording, that's where you start. You also need right source and amp/speakers unit to do it right. Horns are not for everyone, not for me - too big and expensive to consider.
Seems a good number of horn manufacturers offering massive horn systems for home use maybe those extremely ignorant of whats available haven't noticed any horns at shows or available for sale.
The horn misconceptions reek of inexperience. Comments like horn speakers don’t image well is proof enough. They can do the disappearing act as well as any other speaker. This is why the internet can be a dangerous place to look for audio advice.
kosst what horns have you heard? Horns can image just fine. A friend of mine has a pair of vitavox they will just blow your mind with the sound and imaging. I have had numerous Tannoy's for high-frequency driver is a horn. As well as 604, same deal. Those are two of the best imaging speakers out there. I currently have a gigantic pair of Oris horn's and they pinpoint image with the best of them. There's a lot of misconception about horns out there and I hate to see it perpetuated. Horns can and do sound amazing
I would agree that, for overall sound quality, it’s hard to beat Legacy Audio at various price points. At $10k, the Focus SE, with its ribbon tweeter and prodigious bass, gets you imaging, soundstage, and the ability to reproduce music on a large scale, as well as having fairly high sensitivity.
I kind of hate to bring this up, but explosive dynamics requires recordings with high dynamic range. Unfortunately many CDs, LPs and SACDs, not to mention hi res downloads are being excessively compressed dynamic range wise. No worries. At least you can listen to them loud. 😳
Johnk is right, for extreme dynamics you need horns period
however there are dynamic speakers that do it better than others and they don't have multiple small woofers period.
Kosst the the reason they don't make them like that is because they don't have to. It's much more expensive and complicated . They had limited power with tubes so they had to use horns to get the sound levels. Then came the transistor and ruined everything. They figured that power was cheap so they could make inefficient smaller speakers and get the sound levels with the power. But in the trade-off we lost the dynamics.
To sum it up it's not that we have progressed beyond and made a better mouse trap it's just that the way they do it now is cheaper.
I have heard many, many speakers with multiple small woofers and some can have very good dynamics. However, they do not get to the level of horns. None, zip, zero, nil, nada. Doggedly denying that fact does not make it any less valid. High efficiency and displacement are the way to explosive dynamics as has been stated several times here already.
Yeah.... That’s why nobody uses systems like that anymore, right? Because it just can’t be done any other way? Step into the 21st century.
Stepping into the 21st century audio-wise has little if anything to do with replicating or even approaching core traits from the horn speakers of yore, but more to do with maintaining a paradigm of much smaller, more inefficient and less space-intrusive speakers. Those may have admirable qualities in regards to dynamics relative to their specific type and inherent limitations, but as poster johnk implies will fall short of much bigger and radically more efficient, fully horn-loaded speakers here.
That few (again, few, not "nobody") are using big horn speakers today could have a variety of reasons, some of which may include the impractical nature of sheer size (more on that later), and that the virtues of this segment of speakers are simply less sought after or appreciated today. It’s also a matter of priority; horn speakers usually requires of one to re-think overall system implementation, adjust to what’s typically a different kind of sound, and make a more conscious choice in the way they’re going to inhabit ones living-/listening room space.
Later decades of "advice" (i.e.: protocol, even) concerning the fitting speaker size for ones listening space seems to dictate small speakers for small(er) rooms, and by this token big horn speakers in particular would likely not fit until you had a literal barn to house them in. Personally I find this approach to be, diplomatically put, overly schooled, but of course this way the industry can find ways to cater to and justify its small-size speaker paradigm, and numb or lull the buyers into a more or less trained behavior. In effect the range of bigger speakers, the ones who are really beginning to approach live dynamics, are pulled out of reach to most buyers - if nothing else, and in addition to the reasons mentioned earlier, simply for being too expensive. Should achieving more realistic sound be an elitist boon? That would be a rhetorical question.. Sounds a bit too much like conspiracy? Well, lets not forget we’re up against an industry where catering to space constraints (and spousal acceptance) weighs in heavily, and where cost cutting of material quantity and quality comes into play, so to speak.
So, because it just can’t be done any other way? In large terms, yes - because it can’t be done any other way. As has been stated already, you can’t cheat physics.
Wow thanks for the info . Glad I didn’t mention ZZ Top or Green Day “ American Idiot Tour “. As far as “ Crime of the Century” , if you want to see a system stumble , play it LOUD ! BTW , I saw” Dark Side Of The Moon “ at the Cow Palace in SF , makes sense what you guys are sharing . Also +3 on the Tannoy’s , great suggestion. If I remember correctly Manly Labs , has them scattered around their shop . I’m glad there is not a -#5 Wife Factor restriction at play 😝. Thanks again, Mike B , Clovis , Ca.
Costs less than $10k. Sorry only horns can do Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. I know so many are sold on undersized cheap to build sell thin towers with far to small over worked wee mid range woofer combos installed in thin baffles requiring compensation in networks to correct it. But if one really wants what the threads poster demands only a fully loaded horn system will deliver it.
I agree a lot has changed in the market - Meyer, Nexo and Funktion One make great gear for PA. IMHO EAW Anya has the best portable array system currently for stadiums. These days, it is as much about an easily setup and controlled computerized adaptive sound management system as it is high quality transducers. Anya from EAW is the most impressive I have heard - it turns lousy venues into qood to excellent acoustics. Incredible ability to tune the sound in all directions.
It is just Buellrider97 specifically mentioned the sound from the Supertramp tour as being something he has been looking for. Supertramp like Pink Floyd were very careful about sound quality. Crime of the Century MFSL version is probably the most dynamic range pop album ever released! Supertramp were famous for their live sound too and especially the bass response.
That said not much has actually changed in terms of low distortion and high SPL. It simply takes lots of clean power and very expensive good quality drivers (large motors, large underhung voice coils and large woofers with high Xmax). At that time, the ATC 12 inch driver was the best in the entire PA market. Other large PA speaker manufacturers no doubt copied ATC higher performance designs (and made them at lower cost) and meanwhile ATC continued improving their design far beyond what is necessary for a PA setup and entered the high end studio market (where users were willing to pay for costly incremental performance improvements at high SPL for their showcase Main Monitors)
So to summarize, my last two comments are really directed at Buellrider97 and I am not suggesting anyone start building there own speakers to achieve "explosive dynamics" - although that is probably the cheapest solution!!!
mind that the attributions you are looking for are also very dependant on amp/preamp.
I can’t see anything outside these: - Tannoy Legacy Arden, needs a good quality/decent power amp - XTZ Divine Alpha, needs a powerful dynamic amp - absolutely gorgeous and capable speaker in that price range - equals the B&W 800D, but difficult to beat the Tannoy 15" DC driver for presence and soundstage - Giving you away a great tip, and far bettering the two above; there is actually a pre-owned pair of Tannoy GRF90 - you cannot get any better for the price in my opinion, these will do everything to a very high level, and kick you in the face with dynamics and huge soundstage. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-as-new-2017-10-21-speakers
Consider your journey to capture that sound forever is now over.
For a fact, Supertramp went on tour with their own gear - custom speakers using ATC drivers (same as Pink Floyd on tour, Genesis ’78 Trick of the Tail tour). All you need do is find some large ATC speakers with 12 or 15 inch woofers. I believe 12 inch (PA75-314) was what Supertramp and others used. High explosive levels with ultra low distortion. The studio version of that driver is even higher performance.
Phased array powered concert speakers can sound better than ever if they're good ones…they vary, as does the ability of professional sound mixers (like me). Bad live sound is inexcusable but common. I think any good system can be "explosive and dynamic" in the proper space, and about 12,000 examples exist. I like relatively small main drivers for their specificity (?) paired with powered subs to help with the grunt for either home or live stuff, and although the live stuff I do is uncompressed (I hate compressors) and smaller venue, it still requires way more wattage than home gear (thousands of watts actually) for clarity.
Hi, I’m looking forward to your findings. Wish #4 , certainly throws a huge curve ball ! Anyway , I heard a friends system, Westlake BBSM-15’s bi amped with a pair of Bryston 4BSST’s . He picked up an almost dead pair from a studio that had shut down . They were flat black . He refinished the cabinets and had the ( JBL ) drivers rebuilt at Orange County speaker . To me the older big JBL studios sound better than the new stuff. You will need a lot of power and some room treatment too . I saw Supertramp play at a restored theatre in Fresno when they first toured . They played “ Crime of the Century “ just like the album . I’ve been trying to capture that sound ever since! There is a guy named “ Chip “, he is on EBay as “ Rumdog”. He’s an old school JBL fanatic. He runs the 44XX series bi amped . Last year he was selling some Everest . He offered me a pair of JBL L 300’s restored for $5k. I’m at 559 392-5209. Text me for his number . He loves to talk and he is a wealth of knowledge . As far as trying you meet all your criteria, I started like you, and now my JBL’s are in the closet ( not for sale ). But to get it all and have the beautiful audiophile smoothness , Big System and Big Bucks . So on a budget , restored JBL , bi amped with a tube mid/ upper and SS in class A/B or class D. Run an active crossover and use room correction . And please share your results . Thanks , and Happy Listening , Mike B.
Explosive and dynamic sound has a lot to do with the room acoustics and how loud your amplifier can drive the speakers without distortion. I know this may sound heresy but any speaker costing more than $2000 should sound real good if paired with a great amplifier.
Rbstenho I agree speakers with multiple smaller woofers can go very low and clean in the bass. However these speakers almost always are less efficient so they do not have the best dynamics. The op asked for explosive dynamics and that is where you need efficiency. People are confusing deep bass and dynamics in this thread
There is no doubt all of the fantastic speakers you listed have very good bass. The thing is the OP is asking for "explosive" dynamics with force and surprise. Even my 200lb 6ft tall floorstanding speakers with 4 x 8 inch woofers are not capable of startling or surprising me, if anything the bass response is expected and balanced. My recommendation of large used JBL synthesis has no personal bias or ownership experience behind it, they just happen to make a speaker that could tick every box for the OP. Any speakers that have shocked or downright intimidated me have been speakers with large, usually high efficiency paper woofers. Spatial M3 Turbo S in a large room and a powerful amp are capable of hitting you in the chest bass but IMO fall short with the refinement the OP might be looking for. I don’t feel there is much depth to the soundstage compared to a something like an ATC. Clayton’s higher end models may very well be the full package. With a less than 10k budget options are limited.
Some of the best speakers I have heard or that I would own have smaller woofers. For example, your Magico S5, Raidho d5, revel salon 2, and others have 8” and 9” woofers, and they have the cleanest and sufficient bass that you would want. Most of these speakers use 3 or more smaller woofers instead of 1 larger woofer.
I don't know the ESS and have never heard that particular model of the focal. In my experience paper cone, large diameter, efficient drivers offer some of the best tone and impact in the business. Again you can't cheat physics.
The bar is set very low if Focal 936’s (a speaker I know better than most) are your reference in a conversation like this. I suggest getting out and listening to more speakers. Maybe you can find a fellow member in your area that has gear like most have mentioned in the thread. If you could find anything Shadorne has recommended to demo it would fit the bill.
I’d be looking for used and active ATC speakers, like the SCM50, 100 or, if within economical reach and space permits, the SCM150(ASL). Or, how about Volti Audio’s Rival (recently very favorably reviewed in Stereophile), or a used pair of its sibling, the all-horn Volti Audio Vittora’s (may be too expensive)? From the same company is also the Alura model, which should also be had within your budgetary requirements as a used pair.
In continuation of poster @analogluvr’s views and his fine recommendations, I’d stress: If you want to experience the full(er) envelope and macro-dynamic wallop be sure not to buy speakers too small or too inefficient; there’s really no replacement for displacement, as a saying goes, and all the named (and very efficient) Volti models should fit the bill here with their 15" bass units and powerful BMS mids compression driver, as should the larger ATC models already mentioned. Excellent micro-dynamics are especially to be found, I believe, with horn-loaded speakers, but even though the ATC’s are not horn-loaded I’m sure they’ll perform admirably in this regard as well (the 3" midrange "super" dome used here is a true powerhouse).
Kosst I guess I should've said you need big drivers and efficiency. If you have both of those attributes it will deliver in spades. If you don't have the size you need much more than one driver and then generally you lose out in the imaging, staging and coherency department. I say generally because I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. I just haven't heard them. If I were the OP I would look at Tannoy's or Altec 604 Based speakers. Or a pair of altec model 19, voice of the theatres or Valencias. In fact if you look at vintage stuff those attributes are very common. It's only when they started designing speakers with solid-state in mind that we lost our way. Efficiency was down, they started trying to make smaller boxes with wife acceptance factor in mind and then we ended up with more polite sounding speakers. You can't cheat physics...
Damn hard to find used at a reasonable price. I’ve posted a few ads over the years looking for a pair of IB2 and MB2 with no luck. Awesome speakers with the right gear!
Great choice for PMC IB2, but seems gone now! is well round sound speaker, tight and fast bass will surprise You. the sound disappeared even in smaller room and that midrange,man.....kind a miss it!!!
+1 for ATC's specially their actives, but all ATC's "can" sound a bit cold for some. Or for something a bit warmer yet still very dynamic with great depyh and sound stage most Wilson Watt/Puppy's, series 7 are my favourites.
kosst_amojan, you are correct. In a 2 channel setup, you don’t want to call attention to any subwoofer, if you can hear them, you don’t have them setup correctly. They should blend in. For more on subwoofer setup, check out Jim Smith’s articles on this subject.
Spatial Audio’s new reference speaker would certainly be worth a look if you are interested in open baffles. I heard the prototype at RMAF this year and they are pretty special. Right around 10k I think...
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