Solid State vs. Tubes - What if Transistors came first?

“Tubes suck.”  -Lee Deforest. 

M51....poster boy for Terrets Posting Disorder (TPD)!

Anyone else see this?  Thought it was interesting and well written:

See randi.org/joom/content/view/121/#i7 to refresh your memory of a major silly scam being used to extract cash from na've audio fans. As I've told readers before, I often get involved in trying to establish a correspondence with the scammers, and that sometimes results in protracted exchanges. With that in mind, read the following emails between reader Matt Schaffner and Geoff Kait, the genius behind this whole Machina Dynamica farce. Matt wrote me:

I teach music technology at an accredited university in Louisville, Kentucky. When I read your blurb on the inventions at Machina Dynamica, I was stunned at their awesome claims. Knowing full well that they are a total fraud, I've been baiting the company's creator with emails. All of the classic signs of woo'woo are here: no reputable references, no outside testing, devices work by mysteriously harnessing the laws of quantum mechanics, etc. I thought you might be interested in our ongoing email exchange. This man is stealing people's money. Please let me know if I can donate to your cause by helping to expose this man.

The email exchange follows. First, Matt approached the Machina Dynamica CEO:

Geoff, I teach classes on music technology at an accredited university. I would like to test some of your products and publish materials on them. I am very excited about the possibility of seeing and hearing some of your devices. Is there any way we might discuss this further?

A prompt response followed from Geoff Kait:

Hello, Matt, thanks for your interest in Machina Dynamica. I respectfully decline to submit any of our products for testing.

Persisting, Matt wrote back:

Do you have any published materials on the testing and performance of your products?

Geoff countered with a desperate alibi:

Matt All testing information is proprietary. Performance data is also proprietary. All information that we deem relevant is published on Machina Dynamicas web site.

Translated: No. Matt, ever patient, asked:

Ok, I understand. I wanted to perform an in-class comparison of your goods with other well known audio products. Additionally, I was going to publish some materials concerning comparisons between highend sound technologies. How can I get information on your data? Have there been any reviews of your products in magazines or online?

In a somewhat ominous tone, Machina Dynamica answered:

I don't think you realize what you're getting yourself into. There is so much information available on-line you won't have enough time in a year or two to thoroughly examine it all, much less come to conclusions on the effectiveness of these products or how they compare to other products.

There was a review of Intelligent Chip by 2 PhDs at 6 Moons in Jan 07: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/photoncannons/photoncannons.html. There was a review of Clever Little Clock in Positive Feedback last year: positive feedback.com/Issue23/clock_nespa.htm. I have a white paper on Brilliant Pebbles at: machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm. I have a paper on Intelligent Chip at: machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm. Review of Intelligent Box by 2 PhDs at 6moons.com/audioreviews/machinadynamica2/ib.html.

Despite the mass of data contained in these references, our only interest at the JREF is: does the thing work? Similarly, Matt assured Geoff that he was undeterred:

I have students that can filter through much of this information. Also, reading things like this is what I do for a living. I have plenty of time to read, and if I only spend a single year doing research then I'm happy. Any additional material you have would be helpful. Do you have any other websites?

Geoff fired back:

Matt, my website has many pages; there is navigation at the top of the main page. www.machinadynamica.com

Ever gracious, Matt wrote:

Thanks, the pages on your site helped. None of the writing seems to describe the mechanisms of your inventions. Do you have the patent number for these devices so that I might see how exactly they work? I am very interested in the Intelligent Box and Card. I'm not seeing exactly what these do, and especially how they might work. I'm curious as to what exactly is changed on a CD to enhance its sound, as a CD contains data in the form of a dye. Do you change the dye somehow?

Thanks for all your help!

Then this salvo was fired off by Geoff:

Patents too expensive, furthermore I dont wish to reveal certain information so I don't go that route. Ironically, much safer not to have patent in these cases.

The Intelligent Box/Intelligent Card is the evolution of the Intelligent Chip, which does the same thing as the Box. The box replicates the CD player laser and gets the active material very close to the CD, one thing the Intelligent Chip did not do the Chip was placed on top of the player chassis while the CD played for 2 seconds. But the effects of the Chip and the Box are the same. The explanation of the Box is the same as for the Chip quantum mechanics photon interaction with the CD material. It's all explained in excruciating detail in my paper on the Intelligent Chip.

This is just blather, with no science factor at all, only buzz-words and fakery. And, obviously, a patent on such devices would not be too expensive, at all if they worked.. The USPTO [United States Patent and Trademark Office] tends to award patents to just about any devices mentioned to them, whether they actually exist or not, and whether they work at all. However, I find two things here with which I and Matt Schaffner can enthusiastically agree. First, I'm sure, as Geoff Kait wrote, that the effects of the Chip and the Box are the same. The Intelligent Chip does exactly the same thing that the Intelligent Box does exactly nothing. Second, yes, I'm sure that there is excruciating detail in that learned paper.

Ah, but as we go to press, Matt reports:

Here's the latest from Geoff Kait at Machina Dynamics. Apparently he has now created a CD cleaner using "fake" atoms name brand atoms are so expensive. This is his response to my email:

Begin response:
And 
The Box has a dedicated laser in it (so the box simulates the CD player "box" and laser). The advantage of the Intelligent Box is that the active material in the card is inserted into the interior of the Box so the active ingredient is very close to the laser and the CD, which is placed on top of the Intelligent Box when treating it. The top of the Box is clear so the CD is exposed to the photons of the laser and the photons emitted by the card when the laser strikes it. The active ingredient is contained in a thin layer spread out in the card's interior, like a sandwich. The simultaneous interaction of the laser photons and the Card photons with the polycarbonate layer of the CD improves the transparency of the layer so that when the CD is played the CD player laser "reads" the embedded data more accurately.

Comments Matt:

The active ingredient in the Card as for the Chip is actually artificial atoms! Pretty innovative for an audio product, wouldn't you say?

Oh, very

Paul
Bozeman, Montana
U.S.A.

What do you expect from a glorified bus driver? 👨🏻‍✈️

Dave, Thanks for posting one of the more bizarre, snarky and uninformed (notice I didn’t use the word ignorant) articles I have observed lo all these years. Matt obviously has some axe to grind. Who know’s why? Where do all these lonesome people come from? What gets overlooked sometimes, The Intelligent Chip was the most talked about audio tweak in audio history the year it appeared at CES in 2005.

I say crawl back up your arse. 🙀

Whoa! What? Hey, you must think I’m double jointed.

I’m gonna leave the huxter and the psychopath to the rest of you guys...happy listening!

Dave, I assume you’re headed back to the bathroom to read some more of my articles. Ta ta

I did!
Breakthrough in CD technology by Geoff Kait In The Manufacturer's Showcase 

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe."
Carl Sagan

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
Jonathan Swift

"It's easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled".
Mark Twain

That just about sums up Geoff's "products"

Pity the snakes!  Run, boys, the rendering truck is on the road. 💰👀🙀

Uh, oh! Country pops up n/a for Mr. Potty Mouth. I’m guessing down under. Am I close?

Keep trying, Dave_b. Have you tried eating a box of prunes? 

If transistors came first, it's probably true that we would not have tubes since there are no reasons and as the saying goes, necessity is the mother of all inventions, people wouldn't spend their time working on something that is not needed.  But that does not mean that tubes are inferior in term of sounding.  It's like saying a Ferrari is inferior to a Toyota because a Toyota is a lot more reliable.

Also another question to ask is that can we invent a device that sound even better than tubes and transistors?  Does such a device exist?

I mean it took lots of money and time back then to invent tubes and transistors.  It seems like in term of human well being and with respect to the planet earth, such a device is probably somewhere near the bottom of the list.  I doubt anyone will invest money into it.  Tubes and transistors we originally design for practical purposes like radio and communication.  Audio is just a byproduct. 

But theoretically can we invent such a device?  It's possible.  

You could say hybrid amps are better in some respects than either pure tube or pure solid state amps in some cases.

Nope. Upper U.S. 

So fun!!

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/378528-machina-dynamica-worst-scam-ever....

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/shady/2901/machina-dynamica-aka-geoff-kait-infringes-on-my-inte...

Im sure there’s more but I’m done going to the bathroom now!!

dave_b,

"This man is stealing people's money."

Seriously, do you think anybody is buying it?

Buying his stuff or the commentary about him?

dave_b,

After reading all the links above and having interacted with geoffkait on too many occasions, I developed the feeling that he has changed over time. I am not saying it is for strikingly better, but more  mellow.

dave_b,

"Buying it" was about buying his stuff. He is not stealing money if nobody is buying it. Do you really think anybody is buying it?

I ought to clunk your heads together. I’ve been rated No. 1 here for like forever. Hel-loo,

Probably not, but shouldn’t some sort of commerce law prevent wholesale lunacy from being peddled?  Of course our food chain is filled with glyphosate and nobody seems to care 😕

dave_b
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/shady/2901/machina-dynamica-aka-geoff-kait-infringes-on-my-inte....

Im sure there’s more but I’m done going to the bathroom now!!

>>>>Are you stupid or something? How could I have been infringing on HIS intellectual property? It was a photo of MY clock? Hel-looo! Anybody in there? Knock! Knock! 😛
Please note in the discussion linked to the best question was asked by Wellfed.

Number one huckster!

People tolerate it so there you go.

geoffkait,

You are the number one. At some point in history, rest of us will get it.

I’ve got my fingers crossed, pumpkin. But I’m not waiting by the phone.

maritime51
Nope. Upper U.S.

>>>>>Funny. Upper yours, too.

“If transistors came first, and then decades later tubes were invented, would we have any tube amps we would call high end?“

Erik, to thoroughly answer your question, I would have to say ...
No. B/c Class D would crush them both. :)

I thought Class D was transistors. 😳

“Boy, the flapping and hissing doubled once the truth came out.” -Lee Deforest 

This thread is a HOOT(on a number of levels)! To me, there’s just something about a signal, that’s been passed through a vacuum(dare I use the term, "ELECTRON tube"?), rather than silicon. Not that I don’t have SS, in my system. And, I’m even a clean, undistorted, no artificial color/flavor, no sugary glaze, kinda guy. It’s just that those 18 valves, between my two main amps and CD player, sound like the real thing(also, on a number of levels).  It's like cooking or building a car/motorcycle/plane engine.  If you pick the correct components/ingredients(tubes, caps, resistors, etc) and mix them together right, you'll be happy with the outcome.  BTW: I think some that lurk these pages, just enjoy being intentionally obtuse. Perhaps being argumentative/contrary, is all they have left? Happy listening(yeah, all of you)!

Mountebank.  🎱👮‍♂️

🍑 🎩

Ha, ha!  🐍💩

"If you pick the correct....ingredients...…..you’ll be happy with the outcome."

rodman99999,

As you mentioned, silicon just does not give that right feeling. It gives that artificial impression. Cold and technical. Not warm and natural while slightly, but pleasantly, imperfect. The inconvenience is that silicon can last longer while other vacuum(ing) devices degrade quickly and are better replaced as soon as any deterioration is noticed. And that becomes expensive in the long run.


In other words, tubes may make you feel better while transistors will last longer and give you enough satisfaction for longer time. That is what I meant.

Glubson, your statement is definitely true, and carefully worded, but only if the person in question is how do you say it, oh, yeah, deaf.

"Cold and technical. Not warm and natural while slightly, but pleasantly, imperfect. "

This argument reminds of the argument of amplifier feedback.  There are those who believe feedback is better and there are those who believe feedback is worse.  There are measurements that show feedback has lower distortion therefore it must be better, but listening impression tells another story.  Just like solid state vs. tube.  SS measures better but somehow tubes sound better to human ears but less than perfect with measurement.
Back to feedback, I had to chance to read an article from Pass Lab, and apparently he did some measurements on how distortion affected by feedback.  Audiogon does not allow posting a picture so I can't post that graph here, but what he found that although feedback does reduce "overall" distortion, it increases periodic distortion.  That is the distortion curve of feedback is "overall" lower vs. non-feedback, but there are spikes in the distortion curve that extends to multiple higher frequencies.
Back to the argument of SS vs. tubes, I suspect something similar is happening to SS.  It's the higher distortion order which extend to higher frequencies that make it sounds cold and technical.  These higher distortion spikes are very narrow so they don't add up to much in term of measurement, but the ears are sensitive to it.

I believe these higher order spikes fundamentally make music sound less than musical.  It's the extra high frequencies that our ears apparently don't really like.

Man, I love peaches, hamburgers and eggplant!  Snakes?  Not so much. 🐍💩

Bloody transistors age too, and well-made tube amp should last for 100 years with maybe couple of repairs.
I don't like only two things about tube amps - bad tubes occasionally blowing up and running out supply of good NOS tubes. I am sorry, I don't want third world made parts in my equipment. Some Russian tubes would do because they have a very long standing tradition of making tubes for the military. But you can't count on them, they may stop making them at any moment.

geoffkait,

"Glubson, your statement is definitely true, and carefully worded..."

You have not been giving me enough credit. All my statements are like that.

I like peaches. Eggplant only when it is unrecognizable. Babaganoush and similar.

"I am sorry, I don't want third world made parts in my equipment."

You are in trouble. Short of Red Bull, everything else may be produced in some "Third World" country.

This is an interesting subject.
Ralph where are you ? Besides tubes what is not exactly Western in those amps of yours ?
I would not be so sure when it comes to Gryphon, Ypsilon, Wavac, Allnic, Swiss electronics etc.

In my amplifier, many things could be not Western although I have no way of telling. It does say "Made in Japan" on it so my quick guess would be that at least some parts are from there making them Eastern. Not exactly "Third World" country, but when you mentioned "Western".

My comment about "third world made parts" was more along the lines of "it is hard to know where things are coming from these days and why does it matter anyway". Again, short of Red Bull, although who knows where they get sugar from. Probably not from Switzerland or Japan.