Solid core OFC vs stranded OCC copper

tjag

if you tried the new tech silver and copper and they saw in a terrible that means your equipment is crap, OCC single crystal copper and silver are far superior to anything OFC on the market at any price that was proven over 50 years ago so if they sounded bad in your system you haven't got very good equipment because single crystal lets everything through good or bad so obviously what you're hearing is how bad your other equipment is.

I’m a believer in OCC copper. My speaker cables are OCC copper, and most of my interconnects are also OCC copper. 

I will say it again.  Some people cannot hear differences between stuff like wiring, caps, etc.  And because they can't hear differences they believe that noone else can.   True, they get to save money.

I use the Neotech Sahara cables, they are rectangular OCC copper they sound superior to the round OCC but very expensive and the silver rectangular OCC is really crazy price, but the sound quality is exemplary.

@eyecatcher127 

It's very cool that that the manufacture makes an upgrade kit for the crossovers , but new drivers too !

Whichever way you go from my experience I'd stay away from silver plating over copper wiring , either use pure copper or pure silver  .

@vair68robert I'll check out that forum.  They are ascend 3way with 6-1/2" seas drivers and raal ribbon. The designer has a new upgrade kit that is a klippel nfs redesign of crossover and updated drivers keeping the existing wiring and cabinet.

I invested in the kits, and I'm going to do the install. That is why I'm considering to upgrade the hookup wiring while I have eveything apart. The original wiring appears to be a niclely twisted pair of silver tinned changda 600v 14awg hookup wire with push connectors and soldered to the tweeter and crossofer. I'm considering using cardas, aq, canare but may just leave it alone since i'm sure i know it will change the sound and unknown if the change in capacitance would promote phase shift etc.  

@eyecatcher127 

Who  manufactures the speakers and  What size and type wire is being used now ,  have you or are you going to upgrade the crossovers ?

On the Thiel forum there is a lot of conversation about internal wiring ,  I myself rewired using Cardas 17.5awg for the tweeter , midrange and using 15.5awg for the woofer , where the original wiring was 18awg solid  .  I have also upgraded the components on the crossovers .

Hi all.  I'm trying to avoid experimentation and looking for a cost effective recommendation around under $5 per foot for14awg copper wire to be used internal wiring from crossover to speaker drivers that would have realistic imaging, soundstaging and neutral sound signature.  

I was thinking initially to use solid core like I'm using from the amp to binding posts but realize it may be a little difficult to deal with being multple conuctors of solid. So I'm also considering stranded since it would be much more flexible.  

Also, would star quad or other geometry be overkill to use internally?

No romance agree yes there is difference between solid core and strand.Try monster cable they are strand, and Audioquest solid core.Strand do sound grainy and thinner.Solid core are cleaner sounding and better tonal balance in general.In my system strand for tubes and solid core for solid state.my o2 cents

@sasho - I have no experience with the Neotech NES 3002 2 x 9 AWG speaker cable cable.

While it may well be a very good cable i.e. compared to other brands on the market, it’s touted benefits are proabably due in large part to the UP-OCC copper used

Based on what I see of the cable geometry, compared to my Helix AIR cables, there is an aweful lot of Teflon insulation used on seperate wires, together with PVC insulation, which would contribute to high DK values, so the overall the capacitance of this cables would probably be quite high like Kimber Kables wire,

• which is not a problem with Tube amps, but some high current solid state amps might not like this cable.
• Because of the high DK values the clarity, details and image would not be as good as the Helix AIR geometry

The Helix AIR approach to cables provide exceptionally low Dielectric Constant (DK) values, which mitigates cable distortions to extremely low levels, making it one of the best approaches for clarity, details and imaging

But - If the Helix DIY AIR is not for you, I would recommend taking a look at Zavfino cables. They use UP-OCC solid copper coupled with good cable geometry and their high end use Graphine, which apparently results in lower DK levels

Speaker Cables - ZavfinoUSA

As for my choice of UP-OCC wire

1. OCC6N Copper Hook-Up Wire (partsconnexion.com)
2. Neotech Copper PTFE Solid Hook-Up Wire (partsconnexion.com)

I have tried both of these in the Helix AIR geometry cables and #1 was noticebly better, but not by a HUGE margin, just a little more dynamic

Hope that helps - Steve

Steve,

greetings and thanks for support

Would you please take a look at Neotech NES 3002 2 x 9 AWG speaker cable

It uses 19 Individual solid core strands with pvc Insulation per single conductor

there are reports It Is very good sounding cable 

do you have experience with that cable compared to your Helix cable

what Is you first and second choice to date for solid core OCC hook Up wire

@sasho - if each strand is insulated - the problem with running parallel strands of wire is that you increase the capacitance of the finished cable - much like Kimber Kables products, which have a relatively high capacitance compared to many other brands.

Some systems do not like the higher capacitance, whereas other systems are not bothered by it.

But it can be an expensive lesson to learn

You can run 2 x 16 gauge or 2 x 14 gauge wires without loosing too much flexibility

I run 2 x 14 gauge solid bare wires, where each wire is inside it’s own teflon tube that has a larger inside diameter then the diameter of the wire.

• Using a Teflon tube for insulation actually reduces the capacitance because the insulation is only ever in contact with a very small percentage of the surface area of the actual wire
  • because the tube does not collapse around the wire, like cotton or silk, it creates a tiny layer of.air between the wire and the teflon tube
  • for wires that have a moulded teflon insulation the contact area between the wire and the insulation is close to 100%
• This approach results in a very low Dielectric Constant (DK)

e.g.

• Teflon’s DK is 2.2
• Foamed Teflon has a value of 1.45
• Silk and cotton is 1.3
• air is 1.1 and a vacuum is 1.0

Lowering the DK improves clarity and details and as a result, the image is far more realistic.

I use solid wire because trying to accomplish this with a stranded wire is extremely difficult, but unfortunately it does make for a stiffer cable, so I use a stranded wire for the neutral, which provides some flexibility and assists ia a more natural curve to the finished cable,

Hope that helps

I think that from practical point 12 AWG solid core Is thick and not flexible to work with and to use. Also, for bass I like to have 11 AWG

I fear that 12 AWG solid core will be hard to bend

I am not sure though how flexible would be 8 x 20 AWG or 5 x 18 AWG

there Is a reason that some brands use smaller multi solid cores In their speaker cables

Neotech makes OCC up to 12 awg both solid and stranded ,

so why would you want solid OFC ? 

Litz is the way to go. Cardas, Zavfino, LessLoss all use this design and process and make quality products, Zavfino is more reasonable in pricing. 

@auxinput,

thank you very much for support

appreciated very much 

what do you recommend - join 8 x 20 AWG solid core strands to get 11 AWG, or join 5 x 18 AWG to get 11 AWG

@sasho - if you are using Neotech teflon coated, I would recommend 20 awg. The 18 awg can start to lose high frequency response/resolution.

However, the VH Audio UniCrystal™ OCC Copper Hookup Wire
with AirLok™ Insulation at 18 awg is superior to any of the Neotech stuff (due to the type of foamed Fluoropolymer insulation he uses. The VH Audio 18awg wire is more expensive at $6 / foot, but it’s better overall.

Audioquest uses "true solid core" in a lot of their wires (but not everything).

Kimber uses "pseudo solid core" or almost solid core.  It actually a stranded conductor that uses only about 7 relatively thick strands per bundle.  It's still stranded, but better than most other stranded cables (which can compromise up to 30-40 tiny strands).

thank you for replays

Well regarded Neotech NES 3002 2 x 9 AWG speaker cable got 19 solid cores per phase

Audioquest, Kimber also use multi solid core

@sasho  I don't know to be honest as I've not done that with this wire. I tried parallel wiring before and didn't like it. 

I braided 2 18ga, 3 20ga, 4 22 ga, solid core insulated copper wires for each positive and negative leg (9 ea) for about 12ft and it works well-enough (or it's the speakers). I've tried a few things, nothing expensive, and haven't wanted to change yet. But.

@noromance,

I plan to join strands from same solid core wire - Neotech UP-OCC PTFE

what do you recommend - join 8 x 20 AWG solid core strands to get 11 AWG, or join 5 x 18 AWG to get 11 AWG

How do you join cable ends to be easy (not siiff) to connect to AMP / Speaker post terminal

I bought some more Neotech UP-OCC PTFE 14g to make up some speaker cables for my Spendors. They’re currently running Clear Day Shotgun(?) solid core silver. Look to be 18gauge. Should be interesting.

@blue_collar_audio_guy - after many years of building my own cables, plus conferring with other audiophiles all over the globe that also tried many different configurations of wire types,

Generally,

• a solid wire provides exceptional clarity and details compared to a  stranded wire made from similar grade of metal
  • the impact can be observed in the more expansive image that solid wires achieve. 
• WRT OFC vs. OCC
  • OFC is far less dyamic than UP-OCC wire regardless of whether either is stranded or solid

Regards - Steve

I'll vote for solid core speaker cables and interconnect cables. I vote for stranded cord power cords. Also solid core digital cable. On my tube gear feeding a pair of Nola ko speakers the solid core cables perform much nicer than stranded core cables. I'm using the Audioquest pure silver cables. 

The Kimber is my current fave, likely due to the "less loss for longer runs" thing which is why I bought it. Heavier gauge. It's amazing cable for the money.

@wolf_garcia ​​​​​​

Which cable (you own) of the ones you mentioned is the best performer sound wise?

Thanks 

Sounds to me that the comments are all over the map.  It's clear to me there are variables that the DIY's aren't considering and even some that cable companies aren't considering as well. When I was a consultant I evaluated some very expensive cables and inexpensive ones from various manufacturers.  I came to the conclusion that cables make a difference, the differences have nothing to do with price, and some high end manufacturers either ignore EMI or they don't know how to shield their cable from it.  You guys have the right idea here: buy it, listen to it, and take it back if you don't feel the improvement is worth the $ or if it's worse than what you had originally.  

"I recognize that it's very difficult to make comparisons where only one factor has been changed"...

Yet it is just that 1 thing that makes the audible difference and the diy thing worth trying in the first place.period.

I recently bought a pair of the newer version Kimber 8PR (with the "Varistrand" solid core thing) speaker cables and they’re very flexible (unlike myself), present 9 AWG to each speaker input, and sound fabulous. I needed a longer run than my AQ or Morrow provided so these were surprisingly inexpensive (under 500 bucks for 13 1/2 feet) and I had to try ’em...amazing for the price. I have AQ Type 8 (great cables) and Rocket 33s (later 4 conductor per leg version) both extremely solid core. Extremely...

I agree with so many variables coming into play hard to determine litz vs solid core alone. I simply tune by ear, metallurgy and cable design all come into play. I've found perfect DIY Helix Image power cable recipe to be combo of solid core VHAudio Airlock on hot, Take Five cryo'd litz for neutral, solid core ground. I've tried all solid core, prefer the litz on neutral. As stated above, plating bring another variable to table, I have tin, silver and gold plating on various cables. And then we have  gauge of wire, connectors ,type of cable, so many variables! The idea of one type cable for my entire system hasn't been something I've contemplated or wanted to try.

Hi mceljo.  I respect your opinion, but I have done a significant amount of testing with so many different types of cable and wire over the years.   My statement stands after listening to all sorts of different configuration (like you say - multiple wires vs. single wire, etc.).   In some cases, the multiple wire scenarios actually did better with bass and open sounding highs.

My statements above were in direct response to the original post "solid-core OFC vs stranded OCC".

@auxinput - You really cannot attribute the difference in sound between the two cables to one being solid core and the other stranded when there was multiple other differences in design/configuration (e.g.multiple small conductors vs. one larger conductor, different grades of copper, likely different dielectrics).

I see a lot of audiophiles comparing two similar products that have multiple differences in design/configuration and then attributing whatever difference in sound they heard to whatever the specific attribute is the topic of the day.  I recognize that it's very difficult to make comparisons where only one factor has been changed, but we can't cherry pick one of the differences as the explanation for the overall difference.

"When comparing OFC to OCC in general, the OFC wire can sometimes be a bit harsher sounding and there is definitely a loss of resolution with OFC"

I concur this statement...after diy’ing a few ac/speaker cables.OFC has a little more "smack/but slight glare" to timber but tone is truer with OCC i feel...Auxinput has it right...synergy.

Some years ago I did a comparison on DIY power cords using the following as internal wire:

- #1 - Using cheap crap Radio Shack 20 awg solid-core copper conductors with PVC insulation (multiple wires to make a 14 awg power cord).

- #2 - Using high grade Furutech 14awg STRANDED OCC Copper power cable.

Listening tests revealed that the Furutech OCC copper provided a much higher resolution sound.

The power cord using cheap Radio Shack solid-core conductors did not have good high frequency resolution and overall sound was not quite as crisp and clear....BUT .. the Radio Shack solid core just sounded so much more natural when compared to the Furutech stranded OCC. The Radio Shack solid core has better mid-bass and midrange body. The Furutech had that low-end "Hi-Fi" type of sound and just did not sound as natural or real. If these were my only choices, it would be the crap Radio Shack wire because it was just so much more pleasant and enjoyable to listen to.

noromance's comment stating "solid core is cleaner, less confused when music is busy, and yields blacker internote spaces" is definitely a characteristic here as well.

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When comparing OFC to OCC in general, the OFC wire can sometimes be a bit harsher sounding and there is definitely a loss of resolution with OFC. Think of OFC wire as 1000 male-to-female and female-to-male plug adapters between the source and target. An OCC wire would be like having 3-5 adapters between source and target. The loss and harshness from surface contact on 1000 connections is what you get with OFC.

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There are some comments on silver interconnects. I have gotten to the point where I don’t like silver or silver-plated conductors for anything relating to analog waveforms (i.e. power cord, interconnects, speaker cable). However, all of my components are all high-resolution revealing. A solid-core silver cable could do well if your components are on the warm side.

BUT, I have found that solid-core silver is absolutely excellent for digital cables (i.e. AES/EBU or HDMI or something). The copper digital cables are on the warm side and don’t have as much resolution. Though, it is a balancing act and system synergy definitely comes into play here.

I think the issue is a bit more complicated than just a generic difference between litz vs solid cables. I tried the Neotech OCC solid cables both copper and copper with silver and they sound terrible.

People praize the Audio Quest Thunderbird and William Tell. They also praize the Transparent Music Wave Ultra cables. But these are expensive.

I would like to find a speaker cable that sounds good and 3D without costing an arm and a leg. Whether it's solid or litz doesn't matter. 

@pharaoh 

What is the name of the cables you're using please? 

​​​​​​

You should go all solid core, you would get better  improvement than optimizing your network. 

Well, if we're discussing sound qualities, a little this, a little that, I use combos of everything and various metals as well. I'd say vast majority of what I have in entire system is litz.

I prefer solid core OCC/OFC over stranded after testing a few brands and set ups.

For some reason it performed better in my small modest system.  I've tried Silver Sonic, higher end Audioquest, and lower end Kimber Cables.  The best was actually "Anti-Cables" done in true bi-wire. 

This will sound ridiculous, but I see one advantage to stiff solid core is that the cables suspend in free air on their own....no need for cable risers!!!

It might be worth simply testing really good solid core for a week or so and see how you like it.  It seems a lot of folks who use it, swear and stick with it. 

Occ. period, 

Solid core speaker cables definitely sound better than stranded. Tara Labs and Audioquest both make excellent solid core cables. Audioquest Rocket 88 is one of my favorites. 

@goodlistening64 I tend to go the other way. I would not try a cable that was only 15 awg.

That said, it would probably be fine on low power systems or systems with an active bass driver.

Edit to add:  I am intrigued by a speaker cable that is stiff enough to stay where you put it rather than lay where it wants to lay.  Audioquest has a free in home trial.  My system is using less that one watt per channel....maybe I should consider it.

Jerry

@carlsbad

Audioquest type 4 & 5 is solid core. Both carry two solid red and black cores for bi-wiring. Audioquest states Type 5 is 15 AWG in total.

Stranded speaker cables remind me of the Monster cables I started with in the 90’s, which are still being sold today, albeit they tout "pure copper" today. But why would I go back to that?

I have found that the larger (lower) AWG is better for Power cords. So I am interested to know why that would make a difference in speaker cable runs? My runs are about 20 feet, and a bigger AWG is important for resistance, but I am curious if you have heard a sonic difference with the use of a bigger AWG in your speaker runs? My speakers are Martin Logan motions and go down to 4 ohms.

In the Audioquest world (and I am not sold on any manufacturer) if I was to upgrade to Type 9, I would still get the same 15 AWG solid core wire but with the dielectric-bias (battery), so Audioquest is in not providing a larger core as you go up their product line. As far as I know, 15 AWG is the most copper found in Audioquest speaker wire line, so I have always just surmised that going with a larger copper core will not enhance the sound.

OK.  So talking speaker cables.  I'm not aware of anyone using solid core cables for speaker cables.  Speaker cables should be at least 12 awg and preferably 10 awg.  That would be very stiff.  

Speaker cables can be made by weaving individual strands of solid core ofc copper into a round braid.  12 strands of 22 gauge is 11awg equivalent so weave 24 strands (half for positive and half for ground) would make a good cable.  I use a very similar speaker cable but each of the woven strands is also stranded.  I am very happy with their performance.

I do use ofc solid braided interconnects.

Jerry

I find stranded cables smear the time domain and never provide the attack of a single solid core wire. This applies to both interconnects amd speaker wire.

OCC silver has proved the most lifelike and detailed for interconnects. I tried different wires with same plugs as I make my own cables. My speaker cables are solid core soft silver (bendable and better sound) 4n pure.

Sound stage is holographic, detailed, phase coherent and wonderfully natural and tight.. Never had anything close with even two strands of wire doing the same job.

How good is your hearing?

Stranded cables are actually made up of tiny solid core wires. Morrow audio stuff (which works fine) illustrate that point sort of, although they claim to be "small coated wires" bundled together...their top of the line "anniversary" speakers cables have 2,304 small wires...now that's some solid core!

Thanks for the replies guys. 

@carlsbad lets say speaker cables. 

I really wouldn't obsess about this.