I have a high end system which is not SOTA. Instead of buying newer gear, I purchase newer designed cabling. The cabling does not carry SOTA pricing as it is made by Grover Huffman who I don't know if he has an education in physics or relevant engineering in the way cables or conductors work but they have a smattering of knowledge about some of it.
He is a genius though. As to skin effect, he uses a novel approach by flattening the conductors through a pair of steel rollers. The smaller conductors have a textured, embossed surface which permits the higher frequencies to travel along the minimum of surface area while the lower frequencies travel through the more mass areas and larger cables. I don't know if it works that way but his cables beat out most of the high end SOTA sold at 10X-30X his prices. I have been his beta tester for two decades. I still have to pay for his cables which adorn my two audio and two video systems. So, I rather pay $7,500 for those four systems cabling (power, ICs, speaker, digital) than upgrade my equipment for 10X that much.
By upgrading my cables (and tweaks in the past several years), I have saved myself $50,000 to $100,000 to attain near SOTA sound.
Local acquaintances with near SOTA (or they think SOTA) systems because they spent $500K to $850K think they sound good find out how wrong they are when they hear my more modest system. When they install Grover Huffman cables and remove the dreadful High Fidelity cables, their systems become listenable and enjoyable. Removing/replacing Transparent Audio cables result in more enjoyable results. These are $100K looms of wiring. Something is wrong when some SOTA cabling ruins the sound at very high prices.
At a previous audio show, there were three high end rooms with three levels of Transparent cable in each one. Moving from the least expensive to the most expensive ($100K+) resulted in worse and worse sound. I don't know if this proves anything other than paying more doesn't always get you more.
The most honest test of my changing gear and wiring is my wife who has zero interest in audiophilia and only cares about how the music sounds. She was a harsh critic for about 10+ years of my changes until about 10 years ago when she found my audio systems sounding better and better. Yes, I had an inferior sounding main system for decades. Upgrading my equipment in 2006 did not resolve the problems. Upgrading my cabling (as well as the designers' knowledge and ability) resulted in maximizing her (and my) enjoyment. Tweaks were also involved (Hallographs, Stillpoints, SR HFTs/fuses/outlets) and PPS E-Mats. Then last year I improved the system to really high end sound with a custom designed and built listening room for $165K. |
I'm an unpaid professional listener. I'm also an oxymoron. |
hombreJulian Hirsch founder of "Stereo Review" set up a test ... Julian Hirsch was not the founder of Stereo Review. ... he invited twenty experienced high-end audiophiles to audition a very expensive high end system ...
After listening all the participants waxed enthusiastically about how excellent the sound was ... in fact, they had been listening to a $300.00 Pioneer receiver ... They were furious. That’s fiction. Pure fiction. (And in fact, Hirsch did not setup his own listening tests.) But even if it were true, it proves nothing. It would be just a parlor trick. |
Cables do matter.
i am an ordinary joe blow, but have a good ear. I wasn’t sure about cables etc.
I just got a new preamp and tried 12 gauge “single grain” generic copper speaker wire cause it was easy and laying around.
I thought my moderately priced system ( thiel 2.4, Psaudio pre and amp) sounded crappy. My mind was telling me I wasted 8k on the system I cobbled together . I
reinstalled my 2 inch thick cables which I can’t remember who made them (?RCAudio?).
Big improvement. I won’t use fancy terms , just that no doubt they made a difference.
Don’t care why they do matter.
dave |
Hombre ,,Julianne Hirsch once claimed he didn’t need to listen to any particular component hooked up in a system to know how it performs. He simply glossed over the spec sheet. Some believed Hirssch was part of a group of highly advanced thinkers.
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:Hi, my name is Pavlov and I’m an Audioholic..."
*murmurs from the group* "Hi.", "Glad you’re here..." (etc.)
"...and I'm not insane...."
*group goes stone quiet* |
*!*
I....I think I just heard an infrasonic sound.....
There it is Again!
YES! Time for....*drooling*
LUNCH! *scrambles off*...... |
"Be sure to set your DVR for the next episode of:
CABLE CONFLICT! *Brash air horns*
...having gone through extended trials and tests, Dirk, Mark, and Frank have opted for the 'Direct Opt'! Each will select their favorite 1 meter interconnect and lash each other bloody until the LAS {Last Audioholic Standing} prevails! Cable terminations attached, of course! Miss this?!
Of Course Not! 12:00GMT Sunday! Snooze, You Lose!
Be There, Be Aware!"
(Brought to you by USUK, a division of Burns Cycallit Plastic, LTD.) |
Drbarney I like watching “Shark Tank” hopefully someday a completely new power cord design will be presented on a episode ,being 2020 I believe someday soon there will be a break through.
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drbarney1
The most esteemed and marketplace successful cable designers turn out to have little or no education in physics or relevant engineering in the way cables or conductors work but they have a smattering of knowledge about some of it. For me it takes only one fraud to discredit them completely. Many cable designers describe skin effect as a grievous source of distortion in speaker cables. They minimize the skin effect by reducing the distance from the surface of the cable to the center by either using a bundle of many insulated thin conductors or ribbon cables. If they really knew their physics and calculated how much the effective cross section of current carrying conductor is diminished by skin effect at 20 kHz for 8 gauge speaker wire that diminution would be a fraction of a percent. >>>>>That’s pretty funny stuff. You obviously must think the signal is the audio waveform. That’s gold, Jerry, gold! |
"...successful cable designers..." ...design good-looking cables and, just like with any fashion item, they should be paid for it. Is that design more worth than a Birkin bag to you is on you. |
"Some recent developments in cable design..." People still develop them? Why not work on improving wireless transfer instead? |
The most esteemed and marketplace successful cable designers turn out to have little or no education in physics or relevant engineering in the way cables or conductors work but they have a smattering of knowledge about some of it. For me it takes only one fraud to discredit them completely. Many cable designers describe skin effect as a grievous source of distortion in speaker cables. They minimize the skin effect by reducing the distance from the surface of the cable to the center by either using a bundle of many insulated thin conductors or ribbon cables. If they really knew their physics and calculated how much the effective cross section of current carrying conductor is diminished by skin effect at 20 kHz for 8 gauge speaker wire that diminution would be a fraction of a percent. There are online calculators which will calculate it for you without having to put together an integral from a graduate school E&M text. the total attenuation of a 20 kHz current for 8 gauge wire in series with a 4 Ohm speaker is only a fraction of a percent, something nobody can hear. The other claims calculate similarly embarrassing results, such as the static electric changes of energy in dipole molecules in the insulation of the cable. While bad connections can make a difference, you don't need to spend hundreds let alone thousands and in one case $70,000 for the "best" speaker cables. I use 8 gauge speaker cables with black insulation for the - and ruby red insulation for the + because I like the way it looks. Save your money and demand graduate school credentials of any "engineer" who designs cables.
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That was Really Boring!!! |
Back in the day I used to eagerly await the arrival of every issue of Stereo Review magazine. Julian Hirsch was notorious for his dismissal of audiophile nonsense. Not that I always agreed with him. He famously said all CD players sound the same and that all properly designed amplifiers sound the same. But back then he was probably mostly right.
Not so much today. He asserted that 99% of the sound quality was a product of two components; the phono cartridge and the speakers. Everything in between, he thought, was mostly irrelevant. Of course he wouldn't be tolerated by today's audiophiles, me included. But the argument can be made that he was responsible for the popularization and development of the home audio hobby. |
Anyone who has read a review of the AudioQuest Hurricane power cord and not (rpt not) come away thinking, well, maybe there really is something to all this power cord stuff - you know, polishing the surface of the conductor and honoring the inherent directionality of wire - yes, gentle readers, even in an obvious case of alternating signal 🔛- must be in some sort of catatonic state. 😳
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I put my favourite power cord on display,.
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The most important aspect of any power cord, interconnect or speaker cable is conductivity. All other properties are secondary. Some recent developments in cable design seem to strongly indicate that bandwidth may well trump conductivity as the most important aspect ( at least for audio) Conductivity is admittedly important in the quantitative sense whereas wide bandwidth is critical to qualitative issues such as reduced cable generated noise, and noise floor. |
"I suppose mostly you have mid-fi systems with insufficient resolution to allow differences to be heard." You could not be more wrong. Most of us have equipment with high resolution which makes us enjoy garbage that modern engineers produce and mix for our trash speakers. It is all about synergy. Once you realize that Bose wireless speaker actually is a revolutionary step ahead of your most recent fabulous cables, you will have arrived to the world of true audiophiles and connoisseurs of advanced technology. |
All you who revel in your ignorance make me laugh. I suppose mostly you have mid-fi systems with insufficient resolution to allow differences to be heard.
It is ironic that some of the greatest audiophiles (Dave Wilson) were recording engineers frustrated with inadequate equipment.
Most modern engineers produce garbage, and mix for trash speakers.
I am very happy that true music lovers have spent decades refining their knowledge, using oscilloscopes and ears, referencing live music and recording it, to produce fabulous cables far better than what was available even ten years ago. |
I agree. Vodka lifts all veils. The more the better. |
I saved a fortune not buying those $13,000.00 power cords, we now live quite comfortably in a double wide deluxe .
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This forum and this post (subject) in particular are like politics and religion. You NEVER will change anyone's mind here. They ignore science and we ignore their "ears." Personally, I'll always err on the side of science because I've tried the expensive stuff a number of times and never heard a (positive) difference. All things being equal, I'm glad I'm on the science side as I save tons of money and don't appear the fool. |
I always purchase Belden wire. Saved thousands of dollars.
Getting a dCS Bartok with the money I saved. |
I always purchase Belden wire. Saved thousands of dollars.
Getting a dCS Bartok with the money I saved. |
My reality.
Lise and I each have a favorite PC for the Dac. It's just not the same one
She comes home from work and walks in while I'm listening. "So you put your cord back in didn't you?"
Busted! Lol
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Geoffkait,
Poor wording on my part. I meant electrical connection. |
darkstar
The most important aspect of any power cord, interconnect or speaker cable is conductivity. All other properties are secondary. >>>>That can’t be true since copper cables frequently sound better than silver cables. Furthermore, since copper and silver are only 5% different in terms of conductivity you can probably eliminate conductivity entirely from consideration. Since virtually all cables are either copper or silver it looks like you choices of conductor material is rather limited anyway. 😛 |
The most important aspect of any power cord, interconnect or speaker cable is conductivity. All other properties are secondary.
I always orient my power cords and XLR cables correctly. So do you I suppose.
Mark Waldrup could have a second career as a televangelist. I avoid him.
Think for yourself and have fun. This is just an entertainment.
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doesn’t all this cable arguing and insulting come down to the fact that there is a Point of Diminishing Returns ... spend what you can afford and what makes a differnce to you as the listener. $3000 interconnects will not make a cheap amp sound better and expensive speaker cables won’t make speakers, of which you don’t like the sound, suddenly make you fall in love with them.
bad cables will degrade the sound of good equipment, but it is up to each listener to decide where their point of diminishing returns lies.
Some call it bang for the buck.
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hombre
A long time ago Julian Hirsch founder of "Stereo Review" set up a test in which he invited twenty experienced high-end audiophiles to audition a very expensive high end system. Mark Levinson, Linn Sondek TT, Dahlquist, etc. Over 10K in gear (which was really big bucks 50 years ago). After listening all the participants waxed enthusiastically about how excellent the sound was. The best they ever heard. Hirsch then informed them that, in fact, they had been listening to a $300.00 Pioneer receiver which he had hidden from view. They were furious. This tells us a lot about things like the sound of speaker wires. >>>>Chances are excellent you just made all that up. Apologies for using a preposition at the end of a sentence. Besides, blinds tests don’t mean anything. Didn’t you get the memo? |
It was all rigged so in fact the details don’t matter. Nobody’s going to give a million dollars away to anybody for any audio related test. If Kramer was supposed to the Randi Foundation’s key to audiophile myths they were barking up the wrong tree. Randi just needed stuff to publish in his newsletter since he was apparently unable to find any more spoon benders or ghost whisperers.
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A long time ago Julian Hirsch founder of "Stereo Review" set up a test in which he invited twenty experienced high-end audiophiles to audition a very expensive high end system. Mark Levinson, Linn Sondek TT, Dahlquist, etc. Over 10K in gear (which was really big bucks 50 years ago).
After listening all the participants waxed enthusiastically about how excellent the sound was. The best they ever heard. Hirsch then informed them that, in fact, they had been listening to a $300.00 Pioneer receiver which he had hidden from view. They were furious. This tells us a lot about things like the sound of speaker wires.
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geoffkait19,588 posts01-31-2020 7:54amFremer didn’t go through with the Million Dollar challenge because The Amazing Randi got cold feet and it was Randi who blinked first.
Actually it was Pear Cables that blinked. Not Randi. Fremer wouldn't buy the cables on his own. Wanted to use his own. Randi's advisers wisely advised against it due to tampering concerns. If I was sure I could win $1,000,000 I'd certainly spend $7,250 on cables. The whole story, including emails, are on Reddit. |
Yes, he went through the MacArthur grant in short order. Listen, he and his husband live a reasonable middle class existence in Florida but they went through most of his meager savings fighting to keep his husband from doing serious jail time over passport/immigration fraud IIRC. Nonetheless, the educational foundation was always the backstop for the "challenges". That was a well thought our hedge against a "challenge loss". Back to the topic at hand...
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Randi went after several audiophiles, including your humble scribe and audio insider. There was going to be a Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip circa 2005 but it fell through due to considerable distrust on both sides. That’s when Kramer formerly of Butthole Surfers was the middle man between the chip challenger Wellfed and Randi. Someone actually signed up for the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip but flunked the test. Duh! Regardless of whether Johnny Carson gave Randi any money, Randi was definitely not a pauper. He was almost certainly able to back up his Million Dollar Challenge if he lost, which I don’t think he ever did. Of course, his blind tests were fairly well rigged to prevent such an occurrence. 1986A $273,000 MacArthur Foundation Fellowship was awarded to James Randi for his investigations of the claims of Uri Geller and TV " faith healers" [152]Honorary membership, Israeli Society for Promoting the Art of Magic. [150] |
@geoffkait
"Randi got the million from Johnny Carson when he died to go after spoon benders and dowsers. A quick search turns up Randi’s net worth at 1.5 Million. Most likely Randi got cold feet thinking, gee, I know the Challenge is rigged but maybe these crazy audiophiles really can hear the difference between $25,000 cables and bog standard cables. After all, Randi didn’t know anything whatsoever about audio. He just saw audiophiles as a rich source of entertainment and self promotion. Besides, he didn’t run the James Randi Educational Foundation and host retreats on his yacht in the Caribbean on just his looks. Of course Randi would say it was Fremer who got cold,feet. Duh!"
There’s no doubt that Carson loved Randi, but he didn’t gift anything material to Randi personally nor apparently during his lifetime. Randi did receive union scale for each episode he appeared. The Carson Foundation has gifted to the educational foundation in Randi’s name over the years. In short, not that that it matters to any of us, but Randi isn’t worth $1.5.
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A block of platinum is mostly empty space. The same holds true for blockheads. |
There is no reality, just our personal perceptions. It's kind of like The Matrix |
asvjerry, Now, I had recently seen a comment/claim/or? of one, inferring that they had ’liquid metal cables’....!?...*huh?* I believe there are two contributors to audiogon who are closely involved with it so they may chime in. If not, search for Teo Audio cables on the Internet and you may find more information there. When it comes to metals and room temperature, maybe more practical question would be what is considered "liquid". Periodic table is full of metals (90, or so, if I remember correctly) and there may be a few that are not as liquidy as mercury, but are still not fully solid at room temperature. Especially if you apply different rules/definition than what all of us have learned once upon a time. I am not going to look it up now, but definition of "liquid" may be your answer. |
I apologize Geoffkait , perhaps someone has taken over your identity. I just checked , your handle is identical to this dude , Oh well , anyway liked your reply 👍 |
geoffkait, "I enjoy reading your comments here on Audiogon ..." You made it! Even the longest journey starts with the first step. There truly is someone for everyone. I was already losing hope for you. |
That’s weird. I don’t even have a blog. I’ve always wished there were more of me, though. 🤗
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I hope I have the right Geoffkait here . Anyway I came across your blog completely by accident while reading Greta Thunberg’s idea for the world economies though I don’t agree with your own ideas of climate crisis action I did leave a comment on your blog and never got a reply.
Because your completely off the grid i want to tell you your approach is far too radical by quitting your career , going all out vegan and moving into a tree house , please reconsider don’t go away forever, I enjoy reading your comments here on Audiogon ...
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So I'll give my own personal experience here and my opinion based on that.
Starting out in audio I was using an old NAD integrated and some well reviewed $100 Pioneer speakers. Switching from Monster copper to Transparent Audio entry level cables (~$2-300) made a huge difference. Volume was louder, the detail came into focus. Undeniably better. Someone listening from the other room could hear the difference. It was like i opened a valve and the amp didnt need to work as hard. So based on that experience I believe cables matter.
Later on, still using the Transparent cables, but with a much more expensive set up I replaced a Mogami interconnect (~$40) with a Nordost (~$300) connecting my DAC to my tube amp. More subtle but noticeable difference.
What does that teach me: like everything else in this hobby:
(1) Trust your ears. Mine tell me cables make a difference. Just because some egg head cant explain why, doesn't mean its not real.
2) Diminishing marginal returns - true in cables just like it is true in every other component. |
Now, I had recently seen a comment/claim/or? of one, inferring that they had 'liquid metal cables'....!?...*huh?*
The only 'room temp' metal I'm aware of....is mercury.
And, mercury isn't the sort of thing I'd want around the house in any quantity, being poisonous 'n all. Fun to slosh around in a jar, but...
Any knowledge or thoughts on this?
Curious minds....all that...;) |
Randi got the million from Johnny Carson when he died to go after spoon benders and dowsers. A quick search turns up Randi’s net worth at 1.5 Million. Most likely Randi got cold feet thinking, gee, I know the Challenge is rigged but maybe these crazy audiophiles really can hear the difference between $25,000 cables and bog standard cables. After all, Randi didn’t know anything whatsoever about audio. He just saw audiophiles as a rich source of entertainment and self promotion. Besides, he didn’t run the James Randi Educational Foundation and host retreats on his yacht in the Caribbean on just his looks. Of course Randi would say it was Fremer who got cold,feet. Duh!
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Randi apparently couldn’t demonstrate the financial means to carry out the challenge. Turns out he was very likely close to insolvency. |
Fremer didn’t go through with the Million Dollar challenge because The Amazing Randi got cold feet and it was Randi who blinked first.
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