the fully automatic denon dlp-47l is a masterpeice of engineering and a joy to behold. I have one, along with a pioneer pl-518, restored, that has auto-return. both of the dd tables are built like tanks and have never had any issues. good luck. ps- have used both mm and mc cart on both. pps- my denon may become available soon as I try out the new technics pl-1500c.
So many great golden era DD tables out there, what do you recommend for $1000?
Pretty much as the title says.
Have been looking for a while for a decent DD table to add to my lot.
Have bought a few lower end ones and ultimately been dissapointed.
Now I know there were/ are literally hundreds of choices from the Japanese Golden era of DD tables.
Looking for suggestions from actual owners of solid DD tables up to about $1000 .
I have read and read but nothing substitutes for real experience.
This would likely not be my primary table, my Garrard 401 has that position for now.
Thank you.
Have been looking for a while for a decent DD table to add to my lot.
Have bought a few lower end ones and ultimately been dissapointed.
Now I know there were/ are literally hundreds of choices from the Japanese Golden era of DD tables.
Looking for suggestions from actual owners of solid DD tables up to about $1000 .
I have read and read but nothing substitutes for real experience.
This would likely not be my primary table, my Garrard 401 has that position for now.
Thank you.
279 responses Add your response
If you want the best sound, I recommend a Well Tempered Classic. I had one for many years before getting a Well Tempered Reference. The difference in sound between the two is minor. The Classic completely destroyed the VPI HW-19 Junior in sound quality that I compared it to at the time. You can find the Classic on the used market for about a grand. |
It's one curious case where the tonearm alone (from a P3) costs much more than the same tonearm, if you purchase it along with a turntable, like the PL70LII. In my opinion, the PL70LII with that tonearm is a screaming bargain at $1600 (price on Yahoo as quoted by Jessica above). I've seen the tonearm alone advertised for as much as $6000. |
Raul, The PL70LII is pretty well known to be a stealth bargain, if you "study" pioneer turntables. It only lacks some of the fringe features, including the massive suspended plinth, of the Exclusive P3. You're correct about the tonearm, too. Sometimes you see them for sale on "Hifido", the Japanese company that sells a lot of vintage stuff of all kinds, both in their real stores in Japan and by mail order. They are completely reputable, and they know how to pack and ship a turntable. If anyone wants to look, google "Hifido English". Unless you read Japanese. |
Dear Raul, thank you. I love digging around audio-heritage.jp I'm not sure how many of these higher end 1980s Japanese TT made it out of Japan, but they were popular here and they made many variations of models. There are 3 Pioneer PL-70LII on yahoo auction japan right now but they are all expensive in the 160.000yen ($1600) range. Like other countries the audiophiles always seem to fight over the rare top-end models while the step down models (which are often almost as good) go for much much less. Jessica |
Uber - I used
Plast-I-Clay Modeling Clay. I bought 8 lbs. from allartsupplies.com for a little over 20 bucks. I didn't use it all and gave what was leftover to my grandaughter, so it was a nice "two-fer"! The QL-Y66F stock feet are small and springy. I have springy floors and it was a bad combination. The MNPCTECH feet are big and heavy and seem to be well damped. I did both mods simultaneously, so I can't say which one had more impact, but before the mods I could not turn up the volume very loud at all without getting feedback from airborne vibrations. Now I can play as loud as I want with no negative effect. I also had to tiptoe across the floor, and since the mods, I don't think I've ever made the tonearm jump from footfalls. |
Dear @jessica-severin : That QL-A95 makes that the 101 looks as a really mediocre TT ( as a fact it's but this for other time dialogue/discussion. . ). I have too the information of many others JVC/Victor TTs and from other manufacturers through my japanese bibles ( hard paper. ) but I never gone to those fully integrated TTs pages and is surprising what we can found down there like this Pionner that came with the same tonearm that comes in the $$$$ Exclusive P-3 ! ! : https://audio-heritage.jp/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/pl-70lii.html Thank you for your real contribution for all of us. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
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I love my JVC QL-Y66F. I have 5 turntables, including a Clearaudio Emotion with the Satisfy arm and a Hana SL, but the JVC is my "main" table. I had to stuff some plasticlay inside the plinth and replace the bouncy feet with some highly damped aftermarket ones, but it sounds great. It's really noisy when it starts up and you it definitely does not have a "black background" while it's running, but it sings when it's playing music. I have a Kiseki Blue NS on it and use a Manley Chinook for the phono stage. I paid $545 for the table itself. The
Mnpctech feet were $100. I also have a Realistic LAB 440 with a Denon DL-301 MKII cartridge that is no slouch. |
"Actually I would prefer a mostly manual DD TT, a lot less to go wrong with aging electronics." Find yourself a nice DP59L and let the good times roll...The old Denons are hard to beat. I have (2) DP52F, a DP61F, and a DP59L.. Finding the 61F is tuff, it was the top fully auto that Denon made. The 52F is almost as bad. However, the 52F sister unit, the 51F does shows up on that "other site" regularly enough... I've had my first 52F since 1982 and it's never missed a beat... |
What about the audio technical direct drive tables. I have one in my basement system that serves me well. I am using a $200 at cartridge and it sounds pretty good to me. Are these considered to be horrible turntables? The total cost of table and cartridge was less than $500. Good luck in your pursuit. |
the circuit board is simpler with more integrated circuits than the 1970’s TT71 naaaah ...impossible, I don't see in the TT71 a complicated board, just a messy wiring. :) https://i.postimg.cc/05cYb9Mt/P1010219.jpg |
I support Halcro’s enthusiasm for JVC/Victor DD tables. On his enthusiasm I decided to try a QL-Y5. I was able to pick up a "junk" QL-Y5 sans-arm for practically nothing here in Tokyo and then custom mounted a MicroSeiki MA-505 arm. Yes I loose the JVC arm automation, but the MA-505 is an excellent vintage arm. I am beyond pleased with the choice and it is definitely the best table combo I have ever owned (Rega P3, Systemdek IIX/900 RB300) and sounds comparable to some really nice setups I’ve heard elsewhere. The QL-Y5 is the more price-down version of the QL-Y7 with a slightly lighter platter and plinth and less automation. One thing I like about the 1980s Y5/Y7 is that the circuit board is simpler with more integrated circuits than the 1970’s TT71/TT81 which are massive complex boards. It seems that there many broken TT71/TT81 out there but the Y5/Y7 generation seems to have less troubles. https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-y5.html https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-y7.html I think both of these 1980s JVC/Victor tables are excellent "hidden gems" Some others Victor models which I’ve heard people love https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-a75.html https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-a95.html https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-y77f.html |
04-09-2013 1:09amDear friends: Just for curiosity I gone to what the seller of my JVC TT posted on the ebay auction I won for 400.00: |
Vegasears. Think I said I was underwhelmed with a couple of my DD TT purchases early on, lol. But you are likely correct, nobody likes to admit they were wrong! Bestgroove. The rubber for counterweight is a question I asked the seller and he confirmed was in good shape and pictures show it sitting level not drooping. Feet may well be a different story but can always use aftermarket isolation feet possibly. We will see. Raul. Cannot buy them all and on this go round I chose the QLA7. No sleight intended to fans or advocates of any other table. |
@Uberwaltz I read that some QL7 owners inserted Dynamat-type damping material in the empty spaces under the plinth, significantly improving the sound of the turntable. Pay close attention to the 4 feet of the plinth, the rubber will probably be compromised and broken after all this time as well as the damping rubber between the barrel and the counterweight of the arm .... I managed to save all 4 feet with a job of patient restoration. This after the rubber repair: https://i.postimg.cc/GpX3yCp6/DSCN6033.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/yYnR7k4z/DSCN5962.jpg |
I can buy a brand new SL1500c for $1499 Canadian so really close to your USA$ Budget why not but new? you get the upgraded motor, etc, so is that better then a 20+ year old one in your budget? Granted i'm not an expert on Technics tables past or present. I also didn't read every post here so if this has been covered sorry for the rehash. below for example https://www.atlasavu.ca/shop/turntables-accessories/turntables/technics-sl1500c-complete-turntable-s... |
Uber : """ rather more similar than one being " much" better. """ it’s way better but as I posted is your choice not mine. Period. R. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_reviews.php?make=Yamaha&model=GT-750 |
Dear @lewm : You are totally wrong: the tonearm in the GT750 is the same along the GT 2000 and certainly there is no plastic down there: http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000.html and here: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/yamaha/gt-750.shtml The GT 2000 is superior to the 101. Of course that because you are a 101 owner you can't admit Yamaha is superior. It does not matters what you think YAMAHA is superior and bestgrooves is wrong too when he said the tonearms are not the same because owners of the 750 can attest it's. Could be that the finish can be better on the top models but only the finish of the tonearm not its design and used parts on that tonearm design. I owned two JVC tonearms one stand alone and one coming from a JVC TT and I can attest both are exactly the same. Btw, yes specs can't tell us all about a product but here the differences are really high and speaks of the quality level of the building design. You have the 101, put your money where your mouth is and buy the GT 750 for by first hand experiences can attest or not what you are posting. Sorry but your opinions are way wrong on that regards. Yamaha not only made it high quality TTs but tonearms and very well regarded cartridges, speakers and electronics. Audiophiles like you almost never talk about Yamaha but this company is second to none and extremely competitive at the very top level. Please don't make mistakes with. In the other side I don't care about uber choice because that's his choice for good or bad, he is who will live with his choice not you or me or any one else. As always only my opinion and nothing more than that. R. Btw, about the PUA-7 in other thread was proved that the stand alone is the same that the one in the TT and where in " hell " exist eveidence from Sony where they attested both tonearms are not the same but different. Bestgroove where is your Sony direct evidence. ? ? ? |
I fully realise I am not and will not be buying into the best vintage DD tech available. However I do not think the Yamaha GT750 is better than the JVC QLA7, rather more similar than one being " much" better. However it all depends on how you even define " better"?. I will likely add some mass and damping to the JVC plinth so sort of answers the table mass point. Who truly knows which arm is better? I will see what my money has got me soon enough! |
I agree with Lewn ... the arms applied on the lower range turntables can resemble the same arms as the top models of the house but they are not the same thing in terms of materials and construction tolerances; just look at the standard arm on the JVC QL7 which looks tremendously like the 5045 but it's not quite the same thing, as for the Sony PS X50 turntable which has as standard a tremendously resembling arm to the PUA7 sold separately but is not qualitatively the same identical item . |
Raul, with respect, I have to disagree on the gt750. It’s not in the same league with TT81 by most accounts. And you said it yourself: the manufacturer published specs are not meaningful for comparing two products from different companies. Also the Yamaha tonearm on the gt750 is very suspect, partly made of 1970s plastics. The gt2000 is top notch, no doubt, and comparable to TT101, but the gt750 is two big steps down. GT2000X is probably in the big leagues with P3, SP 10 mk3, L07D, etc By the way, ALL the Japanese DDs with coreless motors borrowed heavily from the design of the Dual coreless motor of the 1960s. The Kenwood, Victor, Yamaha, Pioneer Exclusive, and even the recent Brinkmann coreless motors are similar to each other and built just like the Dual if you take them apart. (I’ve done it for Victor and Kenwood motors and seen photos of all the others.) Kenwood and perhaps other companies were actually sued by Dual over this issue back in the day. |
Dear @uberwaltz : The JVC QLA/ is not your best option and disagree with halcro. I linked to you the Yamaha GT750 that use a JVC motor but way better motor than the QL one, that was done under Yamaha specifications certainly it’s not the same QL one. GT 750 S/N is -82db vs QL -74 db and GT W&F is 0.006% vs QL only a mediocre 0.025. But the Yamaha tonearm is superb and is the same tonearm than the Yamaha top of the line TT series GT2000 that goes to megabucks price range. Take a look to the links I posted about that includes a review. Inclusive the GT750 is heavy than the QL by around 5kg.. All those have a meaning of quality between both TTs. You can do what you want it but ? ? ? Up to you. R. |
Oh my, the thread went from Vintage DD turntables to a moral discussion on utilization of animal byproducts. I'm not going to weigh in on that, but here are some other recommendations: The Pioneer PL 600 (not the more recent plastic version), which is full auto, but has a decent arm and a suspended sub chassis.The Pioneer PL 71 is a more common consumer table than the PL 70. Full manual, dual plinth and very robust. Aesthetically, I would love to find a decent Sansui SR 828 or 929. I have seen them both for under $1000. I used to sell these, back in the day, and had a customer buy a slightly ratty floor model of the SR 828 who then replaced the arm with an Infinity Black Widow. He raved about it. |
Well done Uber, I'm sure you won't regret this decision 👍 You may want to replace the capacitors in due course and you should of course, replace the original rubber mat with one of your own choice. The best sounding mat for the Victors I've found to be the Micro Seiki Cu-180 but I fear its weight might be too much for the bearing....so, believe it or not...the closest sounding mat to this heavy solid copper one is the Victor Pigskin mat (remember what I said about the Victor Engineering talents)? This mat however is virtually 'unobtanium'...so I found a close approximation to be the Jico Suede mats but I suspect they no longer make them. So HERE is a Pigskin Mat I found on Ebay which is worth trying....? Anyway...good luck. And don't forget to report back here with your impressions..🧐 |
Not intending to make this a 'Pissing Competition' Peter..😝 But here is a video I made years ago of VICTOR TT-81 WITH TIMELINE I'm sure your Denon is very accurate, but if anyone has witnessed proof of the phenomenon known as 'Stylus Drag'....he knows that on many turntables, the speed will visually slow when the cartridge is lowered to the record and will likewise speed up when the arm is lifted. I'm not saying your Denon wouldn't preform as well as the Victors, nor am I saying there are no other turntables which could equal the feat of this TT-81 running three cartridges at the same time whilst being monitored by the Timeline. But I have seen no videos of any other turntable performing this feat 🤗 As such....I can claim with honesty, that this performance of speed accuracy and consistency, is currently 'matchless' 🤪 |
I have posted these videos before - this shows the speed accuracy of the DP80 over an entire album side 17 minutes and 28 seconds. The Timeline on the DP80 is about 26 feet away from the wall across the hall from my listening room, where the dot from the timeline laser is projected over the entire album side it moves forward about 3" or so - I have not calculated how accurate this is but its definitely well within specs. Good Listening Peter https://www.facebook.com/170947997876/videos/10154978712417877/ https://www.facebook.com/170947997876/videos/10154978713202877/ |
So far thanks to the many great contributions here I have a fairly short, short list of possible tables. Kenwood KD500/550/600. JVC, QL-7/A7 Victor tt71/81 Micro Seiki DD7/8 Denon DP-60/62/80 Now I am sure that some of those are out of my self imposed price bracket like the dp-80 although that also seems to have the most universal thumbs up so it might be time to make the hard call and dig deeper into the pockets! |
If the bi-directional servo patents momentarily stumped JP, don't feel bad. Best-groove, I know the DA307 has its defenders, and I can tell you that the rubber gasket separating the front end of the arm wand from the pivot point is still intact on mine, as you predicted, but my question is why have a point of discontinuity and potential flexibility between the headshell and the pivot point? Seems to me you don't want flexibility there, and 99% of tonearm designs are aimed at rigidity above all else. But I don't think the DA307 is junk; I just don't have a use for it at the moment so I store it in a shoebox. I also store my Technics EPA250, Dynavector DV501 and an extra DV505, Grace woodie, and Victor 7045 tonearms in other shoeboxes or in their factory containers. |
You're right Lewm in your recollection of JP Jones' skepticism about Victor's Patented Bi-Directional Servo...... And then Hiho (I think) produced all the World Patent Documents for it which floored JP who said he needed to read all the documents to try and understand the principles. He never reported back...🤔 I don't think enough documentation exists for the significance of Victor's Bi-Directional Servo Control to be appreciated. It is the exact opposite of Technic's design which utilises a powerful motor with huge torque to control a massive platter. With the Victors......a lightweight aluminium platter is controlled by a medium-powered motor (sometimes coreless) combined with their various servo-controllers....with the Bi-Directional Controller utilised in their higher models. So radical was this approach, that Yamaha 'borrowed' the designer of the TT-81 from Victor, to modify it with a coreless motor to use in their acclaimed GT-2000 and the Goldmund Studietto used the motor from the TT-81 with Micro-Seiki putting it all together. That innovation in analogue engineering runs throughout the entire Victor repertoire during the Golden Age of Analogue. From cartridges to platter mats to tonearms to turntables...the Japanese Victor Company turned out some of the real jewels which still today...can hold their own. That's why the QL-A7 is so ridiculously undervalued at its performance levels. Shhh....don't let the secret out. ALL of the Victors are undervalued and under-appreciated IMHO...🤗 |
