I have both arms. My turntable is an Avid Sequel. My cartridge is a Benz LP. I want to rewire one of the arms, but don't know which would sound best. I currently have the 309 on the table so I know how that one performs. I've had the 3009r for quite sometime just sitting on a shelf. It's in terrific shape and the person who gave it to me, and has since passed away, thought it would outperform the 309. Does anyone have an informed opinion? Thanks.
I wouldn't recommend rewiring either arm unless there is a problem.
The 309 already has silver litz, and the 3009R is worth more in its original condition.
As far as matching to your 16g Benz LP, the Benz is at the weight limit of both arms.
Max cartridge mass on the 309 is 17.5g
Max cartridge mass on the 3009R is 27g.
The effective mass on the 309 is 9.5g
The effective mass of the 3009R is 12.5g
Based on specs the 3009R should be a better match ( assuming it is in top condition ).
Sound wise the 309 will sound more precise, more grip due to the gimbal bearing design, the 3009R less precise but also less mechanical due to the knife edge bearings ( very free ).
Best choice will be very much dependent on your overall system balance and your preferences. They are swings and roundabouts in performance.
If you are looking to upgrade a real option would be to sell both arms and buy a better one.
I don‘t rate the 3009 at all. In the early 80’s we couldn‘t get them off our tt‘s quick enough. Kill PRAT stone dead. Absolutely no idea why the nostalgia buffs go on about them. Probably because they look cool. The bearings are cr**
I agree with @dover- sell them both and buy a better one..
The 3009r is well respected compared to many of the 3009 versions that followed. The larger version (3012r) is employed on some of the top TT setups in the world. You may want to explore this on the What’s Best forum.
I know all too well. I also owned one for four years. It‘s beautifully constructed and offers very high perceived value for money. It tracks exceedingly well and allows easy adjustment. Tonally it is fine. But where it falls in a screaming heap is in PRAT.
It is absolutely hopeless with music that is rhythmically based and is dynamically constrained. Once you listened to something like an Ittok you simply couldn‘t go back. For me it renders music in a boring, lifeless fashion that I could never go back to, and represents the antithesis of what I look for in music. In the 80’s it was not held in very high esteem. Just because a forum today says something is good doesn‘t mean I have to take their opinion seriously. Sometimes old things become fashionable…
I was recently consulted privately by someone who had a choice between a Technics B500 with two arm wands, one each for high and low compliance cartridges and with good bearings, and a 3009. I advised for the former of those two choices, but the person who asked opted for the 3009, based on a recommendation from his "dealer". To me, this seemed to be bad advice and suggested that the dealer was probably the seller of the 3009. Then I thought maybe there is something great about a 3009 that escapes me; I never owned one. Was I wrong?
Hey all - let's be clear. The 3009 is not the 3009r. I don't recall exactly, but the r stands for revised, renewed or replacement. It's not your pedestrian 3009. Look online and you'll see the 3009r being sold for upwards of $2,000 while the 3009 is less than half that price. They're two different animals. Still, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to rewire the 309, not the 3009r. And then I'll sell off the 3009r. Someone else can rewire it to see if it sings, or not.
@yogiboyI find your comment interesting. I trialled a MkIV on my Rock tt and was rather underwhelmed, although it did some things very well. The dealer told me that the IV was a bit of a dud and that I really should listen to a V. Unfortunately I moved and never had the opportunity to take him up on his offer.
I trialled a MkIV on my Rock tt and was rather underwhelmed, although it did some things very well. The dealer told me that the IV was a bit of a dud and that I really should listen to a V.
This is nonsense.
The later SME IV had the same bearings as the V - the main difference is the addition of damping troughs and minor bits to the V. If the IV is a dud in your dealers opinion then the V must be too - they are essentially the same arm.
I distributed SME for a brief period - I know these arms well.
For the great uneducated in this thread - as @neptune123 pointed out the SME 3009R is a totally different model to the SME 3009.
SME 3009 - light arm for medium to high compliance cartridges.
SME3009R - medium mass arm - stainless steel arm tube - released many years after the earlier 3009.
The SME 3009R is a much more sophisticated tonearm - for example the counterweight assembly can be adjusted laterally and well as forwards and backwards to ensure perfect weight distribution over the knife edge bearings.
From the comments above I would surmise that most of you have never heard a SME 3009R, which was sold predominantly in Japan.
As far as the Tinn Tiktok goes - they all had soft bearings - the SME 3009R will be still be running long after the Tiktoks have worn out.
the SME I trialled was one of the first on the market, and its performance was not top tier for the great uneducated & specification oriented on this thread. I dare say the improvements wrought by the changes to later production must have been significant.
I just read a 6moons review which sums up my views in a nutshell
For me this arm is two chopsticks short of a noodle. It’s an ox and it plods
Maybe the SME 3009 was top tier when it came out fifty or so years ago. If the SME wasn't top tier back then, which arms were? Let's not be anachronistic! It was a high quality product for its time, and priced at the upper limit of what most people were willing to spend on an arm.
What you say about the SME IV & V is really interesting. It iimplies that if one has an SME V and does not use the damping trough or the downforce gauge (or actually has them physically removed from the arm), what one ends up with is identical to a Series IV.
But one perhaps needs to remember that, as the well-known former SME dealer MIk Bhavnani says (on another forum), each SME arm is an individual hand-assembled product and no two samples sound exactly alike. The Series IV and V may now use the same grade of bearings, but does the same degree of care go into the adjustment of these bearings on a Series IV as on a Series V? Are the magnesium armtubes all of equal quality, or are the better ones (after machining in the SME factory from rough castings) selected for the Series V (as I once read somewhere)?
Maybe the ultimate SME arm would be a stripped-down Series V, with no damping-trough and no downforce gauge.
pesky, I did not specifically ask for your comment on the comparison between Technics B500 and SME 3009. I too have heard only one and not the other. But "on paper" does count for something. (B500 has superior bearings, if they are intact, a more advanced VTA adjustment method, and a more sophisticated anti-skate device.) Anyway, I was wondering whether anyone had actually heard both. As to the 3009R, what about the 3009/2 or /II? Is that version different from the 3009R? Again, according only to internet reading the 3009/2 is generally thought to be superior to the base model. I wouldn't argue for a minute that there is no substitute for direct experience, but when many listeners make similar comments on a particular audio component, it begins to add up to a significant factor to be considered by anyone making a purchase.
pgtaylor wrote, "each SME arm is an individual hand-assembled product and no two samples sound exactly alike." If true, that is not a virtue.
Maybe the SME 3009 was top tier when it came out fifty or so years ago. If the SME wasn’t top tier back then, which arms were?
I certainly agree with you, when it was released in 1959 it was revolutionary, set a blueprint for arm design to follow, and displayed immaculate construction; however I was reviewing it in the contest of the early 80‘s by which time cartridge and arm design had changed markedly.
A V is not a IV with extra bits added: the IV is a V with bits deleted! The V came out before the IV (by about 18 months), and the reviews at the time quoted AR-A saying that a V was handmade with selected parts, whilst the IV was assembled with off-the-line parts, unselected. So you might get a IV as good as a V, but lacking a VTA screw, VTF dial and damping trough.
A 309 was a IV with a detachable headshell. An M10 was a 309 with a simpler mount.
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