ejr1953
When I did a half baked subwoofer comparison between my Velodyne DD-18 with two other sub owners of a REL Studio III and a JL Audio Fathom F113 (v1) using the JL Audio ARO there was a slight but audible peak just below the main speakers crossover point.
This was clearly visible using the Velodyne Room Optimization program. I was able to dial some of it out using the F113s LP freq. (Hz) dial. Bypassing ARO and using the Velodyne Manual Optimization I was not only able to clean up the crossover point make some Q adjustments and cut and boost a few other places to really smooth out its response and improve the F113s overall performance.
I understand JL Audio has made improvements with their v2 and is also marketing an ancillary companion crossover component. Regardless, the JL Audio is a very fine system that provided nearly the same girth of output of the DD-18 that seriously belies its 13" drivers size.
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noble100
Yeah, my daisy chain remark was directed to the original poster dbphd but I failed to make that point in both of my posts.
I then confused your use of the Dayton Sub amplifier and High level conectivity with dbphd's HGS subs.
In the word of Rosan Rosanna Danna, "Never mind"!
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mcreyn:
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but a vented subwoofer (whether ported, slot load, transmission line, or passive radiator) works just as well or better when properly designed. With decent quality subwoofers, the vast majority of issues people have are room and tuning related, not equipment related."
Well said! I couldn't agree more.
The Swarm and Debra subs are 'vented enclosure for correct roll-off to compensate for room gain (ports can be plugged with supplied plugs, if desired)'. I've tried my Debra subs both ways and preferred them unplugged.
Tim
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@mcreyn I will let RV know !!!!! I knew there was something wrong with my Model 7, so I tried an experiment, IF you slide the M7 amp over you can block one of the slots, IT improves the base by 50%
.....
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Hello ejr1953,
Let me get this straight, you bought and installed 2 JL Audio F113V2 Fathom subs, JL's latest and finest that are huge, weigh 133 pounds each and have a msrp of $4,500 each, but were initially greeted with "one note" bass?
I feel for you, brother, that must have felt like a punch in the gut.
Your dealer then added insult to injury and sold you a calibration mic, room correction software and 10 big and expensive bass traps to fix the problem?
You must have the patience of a saint, I'm getting worked up just hearing about it.
I'm sorry, ejr, I know you're pleased now but the Fathoms still seem like an unnecessary compromise in many aspects from my perspective.
Is it too late to just return everything and start from scratch? I can tell you, with a high degree of confidence, that either an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra bass system would be a significant upgrade from the Fathoms in all respects at a price about $1,500 less than a single Fathom.along with a free 30-day in home trial period.
However, I get the sense that a quality bass system is a much higher priority for you than price. I'm as certain as I can be that either a Swarm or Debra bass system will provide state of the art bass in your room while also eliminating the need for any bass traps, mics or room correction software. I know it will provide the absolute opposite of "one note" bass, the ability to choose your cutoff frequency between 30-200 Hz on the front of the 1,000 watt supplied amp and a choice of wood finishes that actually allows the subs to appear to my wife and I like the art pedestals you often see in the better art galleries.
Tim |
Love my JL Audio F113 great sub |
"More important, IMO, is to have a SEALED sub for music."
Can anyone provide a supportable reason for this, or is this just an ad nauseum repeating of inaccurate information?
Subwoofer sound is primarly dictated by QTC and group delay. It is easier to build a sealed subwoofer with a low QTC and group delay (just throw a driver in a large sealed enclosure, the bigger the lower the QTC), but a vented subwoofer (whether ported, slot load, transmission line, or passive radiator) works just as well or better when properly designed. With decent quality subwoofers, the vast majority of issues people have are room and tuning related, not equipment related.
Just a few music focused manufactures using vented designs:
Vandersteen- Yep, slot load, including his $18,900 Sub Nine. Perhaps someone should let Richard know he isn't building his speakers correctly. After all, he is just a truck driver from Hanford, what does he know?
Wilson Audio- Yep, ported. But hey, David Wilson was just just selling speakers to deaf people.
Legacy- Passive radiators. I only heard Legacys once and was less than impressed, but it was 20 years ago and the room was less than optimal, so I really can't say they are good or bad. That said, they seem to be among the most liked brands. But again, perhaps Bill Dudleston doesnt' know what he is doing. Someone should let him know he should change his designs, as they are not audiophile approved as sealed.
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More important, IMO, is to have a SEALED sub for music. |
I use a pair of JL Audio F113V2 subwoofers, each with 13.5" drivers and 3000 watt amps built in, each also weighing in at 133#.
To Erik_Squires excellent point, my "man cave" had an extremely obnoxious "one note" it would add, no matter what the bass players were playing, and it was very loud. So, I had to purchase a calibrated microphone and "REW" (Room EQ Wizard) software and eventually apply 10 bass traps to the room, to get the low bass under control. Now it sounds great, but it was not easy getting there!
One thing about my comparison of the JL models, the F112V2 subs (12" driver, 1800 watt amps) were probably a better match for stand mounts, as they go higher in the bass range before they roll off. In my case, my F113V2's pair with some Focal Sopra No2 floor standing, three way speakers. |
m-db,
Okay, I understand now you weren't directing the daisy chaining question to me.
Woops,
Tim |
Sorry for being so brief. I meant to say daisy chaining the four powered HGS subs via the Dayton's EQd line level (RCA) connection using each subs 1000 / 1250w amplifiers.
I'm not sure of the ohm rating of the two HGS drivers. I'm assuming if they're anything below 8 ohms you may have presented the Dayton amplifier with a less than its combined 4 ohm minimum load which could affect the subs performance and possibly damage the drivers.
Blue Jeans or MonoPrice cable offer reasonably priced custom lengths of RCA cable.
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Have you tried daisy chaining all four?"
m-db,
No, didn't think there was a need. The Debra system's 1,000 watt amp has 'A" and 'B' sub/speaker output sections, each with its own 'Left' and "Right' sub/speaker outputs, so 4 sub/speaker outputs total. I run separate custom speaker cables to each sub that are routed through the crawl space underneath my room.
Tim
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Have you tried daisy chaining all four?
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dbphd, Sorry, I linked the wrong link for The Absolute Sound DBA review. Here’s the correct link: www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I also forgot to mention that the Audio Kinesis subs are positioned facing and within an inch of the wall. So all you see of them in the room is the attractive wood you choose covering the top, back and sides of each sub (connections are on the bottom). I use the supplied spikes for each on my carpeted floor. My wife says they look like art gallery pedestals and usually has a vase of fresh flowers atop 1 or more. Tim |
dbphd, Acoustical engineers have proven that bass response performance in any given room improves as the number of subs is increased and that the size of the drivers in the subs is much less important than the actual number of subs in the room. 2 will perform better than 1, 3 better than 2 and 4 or more is just exceptionally good. Of course, these experts realize that there’s a limit to the number of subs consumers will allow in their home rooms; or at least that consumers’ significant others will allow in their home rooms. Through research, they discovered statistically that using 4 subs in a room provided the vast majority of bass performance benefits of using many more subs did while still remaining a feasible number for home use if reasonably sized. In your situation, I’m almost certain that using 4 moderately sized subs would provide significantly better bass response than 2 subs randomly placed with one behind each main speaker. I believe this will hold true irregardless of the price, quality or driver size of the subs you choose based on specific scientific research on this very subject and my personal experience supports this conclusion. If you have a decent sized room and want state of the art bass response, I suggest you at least read the Absolute Sound review of a DBA (link below) so you can make a more informed final decision. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-else-using-an-audio-kinesis-swarm-or-debra-distributed... Best wishes, Tim |
I have two Rhythmic 15 inchers. I too thought I would place them on the inside of the tower speakers. That didn't work, so I went to the printed manual and they suggested placing them on opposite ends of the room pointing towards the middle. Magic! The difference was night and day. |
Thanks for all the advice. Whether I use 10, 12, or 15 inch subs I will use a pair, most likely placed just behind the speaker stand. Looks good and sounds good in my experience. The sub will be non-ported.
I've almost decided on rosewood KEF Reference 1s. A pair Rhythmic F12s in piano black might be a good upgrade from my aging Velodyne HGS-10s or 15s. I might continue to use the Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager that provides acoustic room correction, although that may be redundant with the F12s.
Thanks again for helping me firm up my plan.
db |
I'm firmly in the "DSP robs the music of some soul" camp (I don't trust the sonic opinions of the designers...how do they know what I want to hear?), and think a normal room (meaning with furniture, rugs, and stuff other than traps and damping panels) can sound great. If you live in a steel shipping container with no furniture you have other issues to worry about that DSP ain't gonna fix. Using 2 subs takes care of a lot of the aforementioned room mode issues if they're receiving the same signal (not stereo) at the same time...it just works. Also, if sub levels are too loud, turn it down. |
I'm not sure whether it's a more appropriate question than your original, but it's certainly a significant factor when weigh sub-woofers for music and that is whether you purchase ported or non-ported speakers. I prefer non-ported subs as they're less boomy, faster and more natural sounding. But hey, that's just one man's opinion.
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I thave tried a ML 12 in my 17x22 room, and it was to loud for stereo music, and I found the stereo image and depth were diminished. So, I did not go for a sub, but try it, and I am now fixe with it. But I would suggest to try 2 smaller sub, if you listen in stereo music. May be it woill work with your room. So for me, one big sub kill the magic of
music. |
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Two quibbles:
1 - Room modes ARE ringing
2 - Once bass traps are in place, DSP helps with ringing and nulls. .
Not going to argue this, plenty of professional acoustics literature out there. The bass traps help de-energize the rninging, and make DSP’s possible. You can even clean up nulls this way.
The combination of sub placement, room acoustics and DSP all contribute. Well done, they are lightning fast and completely organic sounding, and bigger = better.
However, poorly done, limited placement, no bass traps, no EQ, a small sub may often sound better.
Best,
Erik"
I think we fundamentally agree, but are not quibbling past each other. As I understand it:
1) Treating room modes by room treatments reduces decay time (ringing).
2) To optimize bass in a room takes a combination of setup, room treatment, and DSP. Just like a three legged stool, all must be applied properly to get a good outcome. |
There is much more to consider than just the size of the cone. The magnet structure, the amps power, the equalizer in the sub, and then the room, placement, etc...
Rel subs are some of the best out there and they have smaller cones compared to others, Plus, Rel recommends hooking up the subs so the main speakers run full range and the Rels just add to the lower octaves to the mains.
Personally I prefer multiple smaller cones in a sub instead of just 1 larger cone, same goes for my main speakers. Instead of getting a 15” woofer, I would get multiple 8 or 10” woofers. |
Hello dbphd, Your username is familiar to me from other threads so please disregard if I’ve given this advice to you previously. I’ve learned through research and personal experience that great bass response for both ht and music can be attained in any room by using a distributed bass array system of 4 subs that are placed not haphazardly or conveniently but positioned in a more strategic and progressive process which I can elaborate on if you’re interested. I utilize a complete all in one DBA system called the Audio Kinesis Debra system that I bought a few years ago for about #3,000. I think both the AK Swarm and Debra systems are still at about $3K with a choice of finishes. However, any 4 subs can be used to create a distributed bass array system with similar results. The only caveat being a need for the room space to accommodate either your 4, or the somewhat smaller Audio kinesis, subs in your room. The key is having 4 subs which almost magically reduces room bass standing waves that results in less room bass nodes in virtually any room if they are located properly. It’s actually based on scientific research done by several PHD acoustical engineers, Dr. Floyd Geddes and Dr. Floyd O’toole and others, I started a couple of threads on these bass systems. Here’s the latest one that you may want to read for further info: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-else-using-an-audio-kinesis-swarm-or-debra-distributed... The beauty of deploying a DBA system is you obtain excellent bass response throughout the entire room without the need for any room treatments, equalization or room correction hardware or software. The Audio Kinesis Swarm system(almost identical to the Debra system) was also reviewed by The Absolute Sound a few years ago. Here’s a link to that review: www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I can verify that their review is completely accurate to the results I’ve achieved in my system and room. I have absolutely no connections with Audio Kinesis. I’m just a very satisfied customer Tim |
I have a Zu Audio Undertone sub
it is a sealed sub, large, about 70 lbs, runs cool due to Class D, goes down to 14hz. They use the Hypex switching modules and a large 12 inch cone from Eminence (Kentucky).
I run it with a pair of Zu bookshelves or with Dynaudio floorstanders.
The main reason I like it is bc it is so effortless and powerful, so that the LFE integration is totally seemless. |
I also have a pair of LS 50s that I have set up in a small unused bedroom. I'm using a JL Audio Dominion 108D sub that is down -1.5dB at 31 Hz. I added a second identical sub but found that it overpowered my small listening room and ended up returning it. I'm very pleased with the balance and speed of this single smaller sub. |
Two quibbles:
1 - Room modes ARE ringing
2 - Once bass traps are in place, DSP helps with ringing and nulls. .
Not going to argue this, plenty of professional acoustics literature out there. The bass traps help de-energize the rninging, and make DSP’s possible. You can even clean up nulls this way.
The combination of sub placement, room acoustics and DSP all contribute. Well done, they are lightning fast and completely organic sounding, and bigger = better.
However, poorly done, limited placement, no bass traps, no EQ, a small sub may often sound better.
Best,
Erik |
Room modes cease below the frequency where the bass wave is twice the length of the longest room dimension. For 18 feet this is 31hz. Smaller rooms, it is higher.
Subwoofer size has nothing to do with how boomy, fast, or slow it sounds. That is a function of qtc and group delay.
The largest effect on how a sub sounds is placement and the room. Room treatments help with ringing, dsp with frequency response at the listening position.
I ran velodyne subs for 25 years. F1000, ULD-12s in stereo, HGS-10, HGS-12. I have moved on to Rythmik. A L12 in my office and F15hp in my main system. The L12 is the equivilant of an HGS, the F series takes the HGS and wipes the floor. It is like a layer of crud cleaned off, nearly dry sounding, articulate, deep, and much higher output capability. It is a great step forward and well worth the upgrade. A pair is recommended to minimize room modes, the f12 probably being more than sufficient. |
Just get a larger room, sorry thats not an answer...big woofer more full deep bass, small woofer better tunefulness most the time, big woofers are better for some , small better for others, depends on what sub what room, what you like... thanks
Matt |
Erik,
I use the HGS-10s and 15s with SMS-1 bass managers that provide acoustic room correction. I noticed when I played the Saint-Saens 3rd symphony that the pedal notes are not as well realized by the HGS-10s as they are by the KEF Reference 107/2s. I think the 10s extend to just below 30 Hz whereas the 107/2s and 15s extend to below 20 Hz, so pedal notes have that more felt than heard vibration I sense at live recitals.
db
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Large subs go deeper, better and louder.
HOWEVER! Larger subs are harder to match to the room. The lower they go, the more room modes you are likely to find.
With proper room treatment, and good EQ, a good 15" sub will do music or movies absolutely superbly with any speaker.
Without those two .... a small sub is far less dangerous and more likely to work for you. |
