Uh, I don’t think I’m going to watch that entire video just to get to his point about large cable companies. What is his point?
Skeptic or just plain hard headed
So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better, then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product. I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference. I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines.
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
440 responses Add your response
Yeah he kinda rambles a bit but he makes the point that companies like Audioquest must be doing something right to remain in business as long as they have. If their products were all snake oil it would be hard to continue fooling that many people in such a nightly competitive business. AQ was among the names he threw out there. I guess one could argue that but his words not mine. |
5 things to think about 1. I’ve never purchased a cable or any gear that the initial "out of the box" sonic impression changed drastically from so called burn in. If I did not like the sound signature at first, I am not going to suddenly like it 400 hours later. Yes, cables and gear may open up a bit...however the base sound is apparent. 2. If burn in makes such a dramatic difference, used cables should cost more than new cables. The burn in process is already done (likely). 3. If audio engineers at the various companies thought the "burn in" would give them even the slightest edge (even at a higher price...Audiophiles will fork out the money) over competitors, they would burn in themselves. Manufacturers invent ways to mass test equipment all the time. Burn in process is not rocket science. 4. If I purchased a brand new home (newly built) and go set up my system. Will it take many hours of house electrical wiring to burn in before my system sounds optimal? 5. Would you buy a new car where you were told the driving would not be great the first couple of years (cars do open up a little after a couple of weeks..however, not to the point where you hated driving it at first..but now love it)? I know you can’t stand your girlfriend now with all that fighting, etc....just go ahead and marry her...things will improve in 2 years. The logic does not hold IMO That is one reason I’ve avoided Morrow (besides their web site is a crowded mish mash). Too much emphasis on the 400 hours of burn in time. Even ZU Audio will tell you the cables will sound great out of the box...but will improve over 400 hours. |
Here's a two hour 'burn out' challenge. Select about 30 seconds of music you know well and loop it on a cold system at its normal level. Play it for two hours continuous, listening all the while. I guarantee it will change. In a day or two, repeat the test. Only this time, don't listen the whole while. Just pop in and out every so often for a couple of loops. The changes will still be there. |
@aberyclark I hear you. I did not mention this because it will just take us back to where we started but may as well Bring it up. When I pulled the cable off the device I was using for the burn in and I immediately installed it in my reference system and did the comparison. The cable did improve. There is no question about it. However I did not listen again for about a week. Xmas, family, work etc. I listened again for the first time again on Xmas eve. Once again I immediately noticed that the cable sounded flat again. So not sure if this was because the cable lost some of its zing after sitting un-used for a period or what. Anyway. I called Morrow and I am returning the cable. In order for them to take the cable back I have to write up a summary of why and explain that I followed their burn In process which really made me A little upset to be honest. What if I did not have a way to expidite the burn in process. There is no way I could have put 400 hours under normal use before the 60 day return policy. Also I thought the return policy was supposed to be no questions asked. So that’s where it stands. It’s going back. Picked up a Audioquest Water cable. Sounds amazing out of the box and it should get better with time. The moral of the story is: if you buy it and you don’t like it day one. Move on to the next thing. However I did learn a lot as a result of all this for sure. |
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@elizabeth "Amazing that Morrow would try to stonewall your returning the cord. That is terrible. I hope everyone reads that and realizes that Morrow are not keeping their 'word'. I would use harsher language but I do not want to have my post deleted for profanity. Let us know if they attempt to keep your money!" I don't think they will try to keep my money. The conversation was not confrontational in any way I had with them. I was just a little taken back that me writing up a reason why I need to return it was requested. Also I was surprised that I was asked to be forthcoming that I actually tried to burn in the cable prior to returning it. However I did not get the impression that there would be a delay in returning my money. I don't want to give that impression at all to a wide audience. Now, if that does happen we will have a problem, but I have faith that they are not in the practice of doing something like that. Also they are allowing me to keep the ground wire I ordered with the cables. Maybe they just want feedback on why the cable did not work out. |
That is a strange return policy indeed. The only time I was asked to write something was from a maker of cables who just wanted to know what my preferences were in listening since I was the first ever to return them. Then, they went and made a set with different terminations and asked for my impressions with no obligation to buy. It was a nice experience, not at all like what @barnettk went through. All the best, Nonoise |
"It was a nice experience, not at all like what @barnettk went through." Im not saying I had a bad experience to be fair to Morrow Audio. I think they believe in their product and want to avoid people from pre-maturely returning their product prior to doing some burn in on the cable thats all. They will be up front with you and tell you that a lot of people do return them when they first get them without allowing them to mature a bit because they don’t sound that good out of the box. So they give you 60 days to at least get some burn in on the product, and they would like for you to at least give them a chance. At least thats how I took it. Now for the return policy..they did not say "you can’t return them unless....." The guy just asked me to write a note stating why and that I did at least follow the recommendation of attempting to put some time on them before simply returning them. Now you can take that a couple of ways I guess but I kind of get what they are saying. They are in business to make money, and they believe that most people after giving their product a chance will like them. Now with that said.. I called MA to request the return and you do not have to do that. You can simply go to the return link on their page and fill out the return request and simply send the cable back. I chose to call them thinking I needed to setup the return that way. I felt it was the thing to do since I had spoken to Mike Morrow personally, and I wanted to give the feedback verbaly. I guess thats just how I do business. I just don’t want anyone saying "oh Barnettk had a bad experience with MA" because thats not the case. I was however taken back a bit when asked tp provide all this information about why. |
It kind of sounds like they wanted you to "give us a good reason to take it back" kind of thing. I bought a ham radio transceiver once that I just didn't like the audio quality on, so I wanted to return it for a refund, less the restocking fee of 5%. I filled out the RMA return page and sent it off. About 3 hours later, I get a phone call from, I guess the owner, who was playing District Attorney and grilled me like I was a murder suspect. I just didn't like the way it sounded (Very muffled, there soon was a mod to fix the problem). After I explained it to him, he said, "You don't need to make up crap to send it back, just send it!". I tried to explain about the muffled audio on it and he just hung up on me. He lost a customer because of his attitude. The fact that every review of that radio mentioned the muffled audio didn't seem to matter to him. I bought another radio, which I still have. Being a cable atheist, I wouldn't have much patience with the burn in, even though I have enough stuff to hook them up to and do it without any real work on my part.I would rather spend my money on room treatments or cap upgrades, etc. IMHO, a bad cable can make your system sound bad, but any decent cable is equal to any other decent cable, no matter what it's for, interconnect, speaker, HDMI, etc. And spending any significant money on cables is just kinda kOOky. |
I'm sure it gets worse as you go up the food chain. Imagine trying to return $4,000 cables and the pushback you'll get? Or how about a $10,000 and higher component? Most companies have a return policy knowing most will not utilize it. The smaller the company, the more difficult for an owner to return that money. Imagine being a boutique component maker and having to write that $10,000 check back to the buyer. It's not like those components are flying off shelves. Now, I believe some local retailers will allow you to try a component and or cables with a deposit. Overall, I think this thread is very informative. I'm glad the process took place |
@2010challengeran What a horrible experience. Im sorry you had to go through that. Good for you for returning it, and your absolutely correct about how you handled it. I wonder if that company is still in business. These companies cannot afford to be that arrogant. Thats why I love forums like these because we have to help each other stay informed on situations just like the one you had. Just imagine if you had been able to tell that story to a large audience like this for HAM users. HAM users are typically a tight nit group of folks. Thanks for sharing. Happy New Year my friend |
@aberyclark "I'm sure it gets worse as you go up the food chain. Imagine trying to return $4,000 cables and the pushback you'll get? Oh man I bet your correct. You know someone made a good point a couple bubbles above that said (and Im paraphrasing here) "If cables were better broken in then why would broken in cables not be worth more money" You know after I thought about that it made perfect sense to me since ALL these cable manufactures specifically state that their cable will not sound its best until after x number of hours of burn in. Why not sell the cables already burned in?? Time, effort, cost, or setup could be reasons I suspect. When I called Morrow I told them "well whoever you sell this cable to next it will already have a full 400+ hours on it" I kinda expected him to think that was a positive but I got zero reaction from that comment.. interesting. However that means nothing to him because thats just me saying I did the burn in with no proof that they can actually backup to the next customer so they are kinda stuck. Being a small business selling anything to do with home audio has to be challenging. Returns have to be killers, but thats the business. I really did give it my all to keep the cable because I value these businesses. The more there are of them the better for us right. "Now, I believe some local retailers will allow you to try a component and or cables with a deposit." IMO the thing to do is to have inventory of cables you can use just for demos. After the demo is over that cable has to be returned, and if you like it then you are sent a new cable. This way you don't need to have a 60 day return policy and customers can listen to the cable after its matured fully to determine if it will work out in their system. To me that solves the problem. Overall, I think this thread is very informative. I'm glad the process took place" Well thats because of all the good people who participated in the conversation. I loved that everyone for the most part had good constructive input. These forums are very important I agree. Happy New year! -Keith |
Hi Keith! You have mentioned your natural inclination towards skepticism. I’m curious about the nature of yourr skepticism. If it is merely a tendency towards cynicism or doubt, that is fully compatible with being fooled, because every human experienced powerful bias effects. This is why you can find testimonials for every dubious, whacky belief you can think of, from cult members following a guru, to people believing in the cheesiest of faith healers, to the astrology, psychics, dowsing, crystal and energy healing, fake alternative medicines....the list is endless for which you can find the “converted skeptic” testimonial. Because most people don’t understand the power of human biases and cognitive error. They think mere “doubt” is a firewall to being fooled. There is another version of Skepticism that is more along the lines of holding off on conclusions while applying critical thinking, especially to controversial claims. This isn’t mere “doubt” but rather taking a look at the big picture, seeing if the claims make sense, seeing what people with the relevant expertise have to say in the subject, looking at how the claims fit with other things science accepts, and ESPECIALLY being cognizant of the variable of human imagination and bias effects. One could not be a Skeptic in the sense of being a critical thinker while dismissing or ignoring the reality (so much of it scientifically documented) of bias in our perception. And when you actually start trying to control for your own biases you can come face to face with how powerful they are. When you hear what seems to be an “obvious” difference disappear when you don’t know which cable or device you are hearing, it’s very edicational. So I’m wondering what type of skepticism you would like to think you are bringing to your test. If it is a sighted test where you know you are listening to your new cable and trying to hear burn in over (a ridiculous!) period of hundreds of hours, this is absolutely ripe for regular old perceptual errors and bias to intervene. It doesn’t guarantee you will think you hear any difference, but the problem is that if you aren’t controlling for bias you will not have distinguished between “real physically audible changes” and ones you imagine. Please keep in mind: none of the above suggests you ought to blind test, or that you shouldn’t just proceed as you are and buy whatever you perceive you like. No one should be dictating what anyone else buys or why. I’d have most of my own gear taken away if my wife dictated what I should be spending my money on. :) But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so. Cheers. |
Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players? Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles. |
@prof you know when I first read your post on my cell I have to say I was a little taken back. Honestly I considered the possibility that you were actually trying to insult me on an intelligent level. However after being able to sit down and actually read it without distraction I get what your saying and its not insulting at all. As a matter of fact I consider it pretty reasonable. I try not to reply to something like this out of emotion and actually try to understand what a person is saying and be as opened minded about it as I can. All good points you make and I am thinking your speaking more in general than directionally. So the only part of your comment I will speak to is: "But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so." When I composed the first thread of the post my goal was to see if cable burn in had ANY effect on SQ of a IC. However I admit I was venting a bit on the fact that a company sells you a product with a set return period and then tells you that in order to fully achieve that products capabilities it will take one a year or so (2 years in maybe in my case) to fully benefit from that product , which will then take you outside the return period. Now taking into account that before this I did not believe that cable burn in was a real thing in the first place. Not being cynical, or even doubtful at all. I simply did not believe that it would make any difference. That belief was born out of pure ignorance honestly speaking because prior to this experiemnt I will admit that I did not understand fully the function of the various components that make up an audio cable. I am man enough to admit that. So my thinking on the matter from the start was a based on OPINION, not doubt or cynisism and I took the same side as others who don't believe burn in matters (kind of like follow the leader) without doing the proper research and experimentation on my own. So IMO this is pure skepticism, and nothing dark, or deeper about it. Period. Once I started working through this is when the education process started for me. So back to your comment on my evaluation of the results of my test. I am very in tune with how my system sounds regardless of what you or anyone else may thing I know when I hear something different in regards to how my system sounds. I did not need to do a blind test because it was just really not that close. The cable did sound better post burn in, simple as that. I tried to be as transparent, and honest as I could be with this. Do you really think that I would put myself out there like that and say this whole cable burn in is BS and ridiculous, go through all this to only come back and say I was wrong?? The burn in period did improve the cables performance. I admitted that. Im also admitting that after allowing the cable to sit unused for another period of time that the cable lost some of its SQ. I don't think its a bad product. I think it's more that this particular cable is just not a good fit for my particular setup. I am deciding the return it simply for those reasons. Thats no knock on MA. I think I was very careful to not bash MA in any way (just in case thats what you meant by "the power in our bias"). Or. Maybe you mean that the power of or bias can and will influence our percived outcomes. To that I say "Im not buying it" in this case. So while I agree with some of what your saying I disagree that I could not properly come to my conclusions using the method of evaluating this experiement. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I really appreciate it.. honestly not being sarcastic. -Keith |
@geoffkait "Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players? Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles. " Good point and I agree. What is the answer. i think it boils down to what a person is willing to accept when they purchase a piece of gear. I have tube gear that I knew would not sound its best until a certain amount of time passed with use. I accepted that because I knew I would have that equipment for years to come. Even some of my SS gear. I accept that. This will be different from person to person. Some people are more patient with certain pieces of gear the other pieces of gear I think. At least thats how I think about it anyway. A cable... come on.. Im not waiting no two years for it to sound good. So with cables I am taking the low road, and simply returning it if it does not sound satisfactory out of the box.. But hey thats just me. You make a good point tho about where is the line. I bet if you ask 100 people you will get at least 75 different answers. |
Thanks for the considered reply Keith. As I said I’m absolutely not trying to declare, or convince you, that you heard no real sonic difference with your burned in cable. I was only raising points to consider if you are really trying to get careful perusing the truth of the matter. It seems you are in the “If I thought I heard an obvious difference I couldn’t have been mistaken” camp. That is of course your prerogative. But that conclusion really does rely on ignoring the power of bias. I’ve been there. I had a very high end ac cable that I was positive changed the sound of my system when hooked up to my DAC or CD player. Everything sounded smoother, more lush, less hash, less bright, more transparent in to the recording. It was just....OBVIOUS! It was so obvious that I noticed a darkened rolled off character that started to make me question if I even liked my system with this power cable. When something makes you go from “I love the sound of my system” to “this is so different I don’t think I actually like it,” that’s so obvious why even question it, right? If I were in the camp of “my ears are always right” I wouldn’t question for a moment that the cable altered my system. Like you have not. But....in the quest to put my finger on what was happening I had someone help me do a blind shoot out between this high end cable and my regular cheap stock AC cable. It turned out that once I couldn’t see or know which cable was in the system I couldn’t hear any difference at all! There was just nothing of those obvious sonic traits I attributed to the cable there to cue me vs the sound of the stock cable. It was absolutely head-spinning to experience this encounter with the power of sighted bias. A learning experience. And unless someone has ever done it, or is inclined to test his perception this way, he will usually take the view “well that all may be interesting and apply to YOU but it doesn’t apply to ME. I KNOW what I heard.” btw, blind tests don’t always fail to support audible differences. Often enough they support them. In my case I’ve correctly distinguished DACs and CD players, for instance. Anyway, again, peace be to whatever way you wish to go about testing gear. No one needs to turn their high end hobby in to a science lab. Cheers. |
@prof Intersting. Ok well now you have me curious. Not doubtful :) but curious. So early on in the post I had made arrangements for 3 others to participate in this. My wife who does not care one way or the other. She only cares about "how much did you pay for that" and will it work in our homes decor. My Youngest Son who is in college and also in the music business, an audiophile friend of mine who I can explain what im listening for, then allow him to make his own judgement, and Me. So now that you have planted that seed I think its only fair to complete the comparison at least to that level. I mean the truth is what we seek right? Plus I have not returned the cable yet, and I still have the recording I made. Its a little crude of an A/B test but I think it will suffice. This has been going on for a month so what the heck. I know i'm right but now that you said what you said I probably will have regrets and be up at night thinking about it :) See we need people like you to call these things out and challenge us to be thourough regardless of what we think we know. I really do mean that. I guess we can now add stubborn to skeptical, hardheaded, and inpatient. darn it. It seems im learning more about myself than this freaking audio cable. I will report back and post the outcome in the next few days. I am going to put the cable back on the "burn in" device I came up with for a day and by weekends end I will give the short version of the results. I promise it will be short this time. |
Oh jeeze, I don’t mean to cause you any more work Keith! But since you seem to be up to more testing... Its no good to rely on concepts like “X person has no interest in the gear so if they report hearing a difference it can’t be bias and must be accurate.” No one is immune to sighted bias effects. The mere act of listening for differences can make people perceive differences even if they don’t “care” about the outcome. If you really mean to do some form of home-brew blind test, here are some ideas from my own ac cable blind testing, some or all of which you may want to employ: The fact it will be a single blind test doesn’t completely invalidate the test, but single blind tests suffer from the possibility of “experimentor bias.” That is so long as the person conducting the test knows which cable is which, they can influence the outcome in subtle unconscious ways - including subtlety tipping off the subject in ways neither are aware. To try to control for this I did the following: 1. Pattern of switching is randomized. This is standard for blind testing. Say you are going to do 12 trials (switches). The person doing the switching can flip a coin 12 times and write down the sequence of heads and tails. He can use that sequence to follow for switching the cables. 2. Use a blind fold of some kind if possible to reduce likelihood of peeking :) 3. Try to reduce communicating (hence reduce possible subtle cues) between you and the switcher. Best of you listen to your music selection and simply say “switch” each time you want (the switcher then following the random pattern arrived at with the coin flips). Best of the switcher doesn’t say anything at all during the trial. 4. I wanted to make sure I couldn’t tell just by the sound of the plugs going in or out which cable has been plugged in. Therefore we did a little pre-trial of only the cables being switched on my command (blindfolded). The sequence being decided by coin flip. Once that trial established my guesses were random, I could be more confident I’d dealt with that variable. Again: things to consider. It can be easier than many think to screw up blind testing, But even casual blind testing can be kind of fun and intersting. Best of luck! |
@prof "Oh jeeze, I don’t mean to cause you any more work Keith!" To late... you have gone and done it now :) JK I really don't mind. Just when I thought I had this all figured out up pops Prof. Ok so I do plan to employ a blind fold.. check The randomness of the swap will not be oblivious to me. I will wear some ear plugs or something during the swap.. Check I should not say my wife has no skin in the game. We have been married for 22 years and she is often my test person for lots of stuff so she actually has a pretty good ear, and does care. My Son is also going to do fine. Keep in mind the overall goal of the test. Which is to see if cable burn in makes any difference in SQ. We are also going to see if the cable is able to either out perform the cable I have now or at least equal it. Now in regards to the pre/post burn in test I only have one sample of a recording pre-burn-in so I am a little limited in that regard but I have some other ideas. If the cable comes up to at least the same SQ as the cable I have the compare between the two will reveal that. it will also be proof that the cable improved with burn-in. You will have to trust me on the fact that the cable sounded profoundly different (worst) than my existing cable pre-burn in. It was not even close. However I will also allow my participants to listen to that for them selves as well. No sure this will be fair because the only way to do that is to play the tape and have them compare to the actual record and that won't be fair because the record will definitely sound better, but we will see if we can make any judgment but I think that will be very subjective. We will not communicate during the test.. Check. Coin flip I will suggest that but I think they will come up with something on their own as well but I will keep that in mind. I want them to feel that their method makes sense to them. So ok the ground work is laid. I think we have as good as a test method we can come up with under the circumstances. I wish you would have spoke up early in the post as i'm sure we could have come up with other ways to do the A/B, but I thought using my reel to reel was as accurate I could get to do a fair comparison. Good stuff. So the cable is cooking now again only because its been sitting for a few days. I plan to do the comparison on Sunday. Everyone is ready to rock and roll (no pun) remember everyone this is in no way going to be perfect. I realize that but I do think we can at least draw some real conclusions. Regardless of what happens the cable is being returned because I already know that it does not best what I currently have. Even if no one can tell the difference its "no difference" in that regard and not worth the investment to have no obvious improvement. If anyone else has any ideas they want to throw out, this is the time to do it. After this the matter of cable burn in will be closed...for me anyway. -Keith |
Wait I just re-read his post. He did not say he bought into the idea of green rings. He said: "If you think putting little green rings around the edge of CDs is kind of kooky you would probably think the things I do routinely verges on satanism." I would still be interested in hearing some of these things. We have time while this cable burns a little longer. |
@aberyclark. Yep your right. We are easy targets in this hobby for sure. However if you have the money and if it makes you hear what you want to hear I say go for it. Not going to judge. I do feel that a lot of people in this hobby replace/add things to improve their system in the wrong order. I am no different. I have learned however it’s the room that’s the most important. Those of us who have the luxury of a dedicated room can really do some fantastic things to improve SQ. Those who don’t you just have to do the best you can, but room should be the first improvement. Once you get the room right all else falls in line. I had to learn that the hard way and thousands of dollars later. |
Putting a green ring around the edge of a CD does two things. 1. It stabilizes the disc while spinning by adding mass to the outer circumference, thus reducing optical read errors. CDs are often out of round and or not perfectly level whilst playing. 2. It absorbs visible red scattered laser light that could otherwise get into the photodetector as noise, thus reducing optical read errors. |
aberyclark Of course I was joking about CD’s sound better with more plays. >>>>>Gosh, really? aberyclark Audio it is no different than any other hobby. You have snake oil and gullible people with money. I’m just not one to think $5000 for a small bag of “ sonic pebbles” will improve your system. >>>>Like you know. Power to the Pebble! ✊ |
@geoffkait thsts a good explanation at least. Most people just say it’s magic. We will see if anyone else adds to it. So reducing read errors and adding weight to the outer edge does that make the music sound better? I’m seriously asking because I do t know. If you say yes you know what I’m going to do right?? |
The reason the ring has to be green is because green is the complementary color of red, which means red + green = black I should warn you, however, the CD laser wavelength is actually around 780 nm, which is in the near infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, in the invisible portion. Visible red light stops around 700 nm. If you see what I mean. 😳 |
barnettk OP196 posts12-29-2018 10:28am@geoffkait thsts a good explanation at least. Most people just say it’s magic. We will see if anyone else adds to it. So reducing read errors and adding weight to the outer edge does that make the music sound better? I’m seriously asking because I do t know. If you say yes you know what I’m going to do right?? >>>>Would I kid you? For the student, http://machinadynamica.com/machina23.htm |
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