Agreed Jim. A hard expensive lesson that took me quite awhile to figure out. The rest of my life will be with spent w/tubes & reasonably efficient, easy to drive speakers. Thinking back to the early 90's I had a system with Klipsch Chorus speakers & a Carver M amp that emulated tube sound that was 375 watts per channel. Talk about concert levels.....at the time I thought it sounded great. I'd like to compare to what I have now just for grins.
Mega amps - low IMP speakers, where is all this headed and why
hello all,
Is the ‘light’ at the end of the tunnel a train?
‘Curiosity killed the cat. Death regularly indicates something physical and well beyond inquiring minds is required to be erased from the mortal plane.
Inquisitiveness may have unexpectedly snuffed out a prominent socialite’s or celebrity’s ‘familiar’ back in the day, and as such, handed us this well worn and slightly baffling caveat.
What about those other eight lives? That must have been one incredibly annoying cat!
On the flip side, curiosity enables audio maniacs to ponder, ruminate, and consider where production tendencies are headed and how manufacture ring trends may impact them going forward.
If you are in the market for speakers and who isn’t? Pretty sure it’s a law somewhere. You must have noticed the enormous numbers of speaker systems on the market being produced in 4 ohm impedance configurations. Sensitivity in most of these models however doesn’t seem inordinately boosted to increase flexibility with just any amp.
Conversely, if you’re looking for a new or replacement, or just one more amp, and who isn’t? This is about to become a law when the next audio congress convenes. You must have noticed amplifiers these days are capable of producing prodigious wattage.
Exactly who is leading the way here? Amp makers producing some of the most powerful amps in the history of home audio,, or speaker makers lowering their latest constructs IMPs across the board begging for the advent of more applied power so they can put their best notes forward?
Form following function. No worries. Really?
The proliferation of Loudspeaker’s plummeting impedances is especially true as the costs of speakers rise. Albeit, the more affordable sorts have been touched too.
So why now is 4 ohms the overwhelming standard, and not 8 ohms or higher?
Article after article says traditional loudspeaker designs seek to produce Driver technology whose aim is to make lightweight, fast moving, low mass diaphragms suggesting less power, not more, will then be required to control them properly.
Indeed, there are loudspeaker designs which by their nature demand ample current supplies. OK. Well, what about the rest of them?
With speaker makers like Devore, Coincident, Tannoy, Klipsch, Daedalus, BW, Silverline, tekton, and a throng of others which carry more than a couple drivers and claim 8 ohm or higher IMP ratings in many of their products, it is puzzling so many of the upper range, (way expensive) speakers from many makers around the world produce these units as lower IMP formulae regularly.
Neither should we overlook those loudspeaker systems which are beginning to build models with active bass components. These afford a wider selection of amps with which to fuel them. As well there are completely active head to toe, speaker systems becoming more popular and more prevalent.
Are these most thoughtful semi and fully active loudspeaker arrays the sign post up ahead that new solutions are materializing to allow avoidance of the current rank and file tougher to push speakers? In this novel tangent towards what might be the last viable option for the ‘sonic crusader’, is this simply a detour to the Rod Serling Museum wherein a whole new bag of worms will be exposed once inside?
These partially and fully active speaker systems may wel be the last feasible stalwarts to compile a ‘new age’ stereo. It is a relief to see these appear as more than futuristic possible proposals and presently abailable. The sole pitfall for them is not many speaker makers are including this species as obtainable purchases. In fact, the herd is quite thin.
With the sound being the goal at the end of the day, why are we now obliged to choose between glorious and pleasant with the implied prerequisite higher wattage and consequently more expensive amps is the optimum solution for driving these difficult loads?
, “It’s all been done” … Barenaked Ladies
Amplifier designers have been quoted repeatedly amplifier technology has seen its maximum improvements. There is simply not much more one can do with amps that has not already been done, save for increasing outputs. It comes down to what goes into the amp and how it is implemented as the topology in many respects is at its zenith.
Even foremost tube amp makers got into the fray as best they could pushing out 200, 400, and remarkably greater power amps, doubling and tripling their former amp’s outputs to be viable choices for hard to drive speakers, not to mention merely being competitive with the Ever increasing outputs of SS amps.
Looking for a new set of mono blocks and a space heater ‘all in one’ solution? Enjoy listening while stark naked in sub zero weather? Its OK. no judgements here. Well, then just Put a pair of 250, or 400w –tube big boys’ in your room and push the ‘fun’ buttons! Problem solved.
Toasty tunes!
A couple hundred pounds more or les, of Class A SS amps does the same thing. Eventually.
It all seems so unnecessary.
Furthermore, routinely notable amplifier makers report the less power used the better the quality of the sound capable of being generated.
Amplifier outputs, electrical attributes, types, designs, aplomb, and honesty are a crucial portion of the mysterious formula for mating them to speakers to achieve the most advantageous or desired presentations. Though it appears wattage overkill is the new gear in the acceleration of ultra audio.
The amplifiers that can achieve these remarkable outputs and demonstrate delicious sound in lock step continue to distance themselves with their stratospheric price tags.
If the chase was not at all about acquiring as much fascination and intrigue as the goal, with costs being a real world factor, questions like this would not arise. (egg., aforementioned abruptly deceased feline. What? Too soon?)
Could it be true the wealth of affordable Class a SS amps are about to become extinct, seldom sought, or eventually merely shadowy memories due to the lowering IMP of current and forthcoming speakers?
Will amp makers ever find the equation that enables lots o’watt amps to deliver the sound quality of lower powered, quite intriguing amps akin to SETs, PP Tris OTL, Pass’ First Watt, and the like?
Will speaker makers ever escalating advances in tech finally yield transducers possessing easier, rather than more difficult speaker IMPs as the ‘rule, and thereby reverse this low IMP ‘cookie cutter’ tendency ?
How much more difficult is it about to become for the median of audio devotees to establish exemplary performing systems without the need for a second mortgage, or logging onto Craig’s List to sell a kidney?
There seems no ‘one size fits all’ answer but there are plenty of questions surrounding the direction home audio speaker and amplifier manufacturers are now pursuing and what lays just beyond the horizon for audio disciples. Several, however, are presented here for your consideration.
So the thread's title alone begs this question…
“At the end of the day, with respect to the lowering of IMPs in speakers and increasing outputs of amplifiers, is the ‘light’ at the end of the tunnel a train?”
Or, should we simply ‘pay no attention to the ‘disturbance’ behind the curtains”.
thank you all for your thoughtful input.
Is the ‘light’ at the end of the tunnel a train?
‘Curiosity killed the cat. Death regularly indicates something physical and well beyond inquiring minds is required to be erased from the mortal plane.
Inquisitiveness may have unexpectedly snuffed out a prominent socialite’s or celebrity’s ‘familiar’ back in the day, and as such, handed us this well worn and slightly baffling caveat.
What about those other eight lives? That must have been one incredibly annoying cat!
On the flip side, curiosity enables audio maniacs to ponder, ruminate, and consider where production tendencies are headed and how manufacture ring trends may impact them going forward.
If you are in the market for speakers and who isn’t? Pretty sure it’s a law somewhere. You must have noticed the enormous numbers of speaker systems on the market being produced in 4 ohm impedance configurations. Sensitivity in most of these models however doesn’t seem inordinately boosted to increase flexibility with just any amp.
Conversely, if you’re looking for a new or replacement, or just one more amp, and who isn’t? This is about to become a law when the next audio congress convenes. You must have noticed amplifiers these days are capable of producing prodigious wattage.
Exactly who is leading the way here? Amp makers producing some of the most powerful amps in the history of home audio,, or speaker makers lowering their latest constructs IMPs across the board begging for the advent of more applied power so they can put their best notes forward?
Form following function. No worries. Really?
The proliferation of Loudspeaker’s plummeting impedances is especially true as the costs of speakers rise. Albeit, the more affordable sorts have been touched too.
So why now is 4 ohms the overwhelming standard, and not 8 ohms or higher?
Article after article says traditional loudspeaker designs seek to produce Driver technology whose aim is to make lightweight, fast moving, low mass diaphragms suggesting less power, not more, will then be required to control them properly.
Indeed, there are loudspeaker designs which by their nature demand ample current supplies. OK. Well, what about the rest of them?
With speaker makers like Devore, Coincident, Tannoy, Klipsch, Daedalus, BW, Silverline, tekton, and a throng of others which carry more than a couple drivers and claim 8 ohm or higher IMP ratings in many of their products, it is puzzling so many of the upper range, (way expensive) speakers from many makers around the world produce these units as lower IMP formulae regularly.
Neither should we overlook those loudspeaker systems which are beginning to build models with active bass components. These afford a wider selection of amps with which to fuel them. As well there are completely active head to toe, speaker systems becoming more popular and more prevalent.
Are these most thoughtful semi and fully active loudspeaker arrays the sign post up ahead that new solutions are materializing to allow avoidance of the current rank and file tougher to push speakers? In this novel tangent towards what might be the last viable option for the ‘sonic crusader’, is this simply a detour to the Rod Serling Museum wherein a whole new bag of worms will be exposed once inside?
These partially and fully active speaker systems may wel be the last feasible stalwarts to compile a ‘new age’ stereo. It is a relief to see these appear as more than futuristic possible proposals and presently abailable. The sole pitfall for them is not many speaker makers are including this species as obtainable purchases. In fact, the herd is quite thin.
With the sound being the goal at the end of the day, why are we now obliged to choose between glorious and pleasant with the implied prerequisite higher wattage and consequently more expensive amps is the optimum solution for driving these difficult loads?
, “It’s all been done” … Barenaked Ladies
Amplifier designers have been quoted repeatedly amplifier technology has seen its maximum improvements. There is simply not much more one can do with amps that has not already been done, save for increasing outputs. It comes down to what goes into the amp and how it is implemented as the topology in many respects is at its zenith.
Even foremost tube amp makers got into the fray as best they could pushing out 200, 400, and remarkably greater power amps, doubling and tripling their former amp’s outputs to be viable choices for hard to drive speakers, not to mention merely being competitive with the Ever increasing outputs of SS amps.
Looking for a new set of mono blocks and a space heater ‘all in one’ solution? Enjoy listening while stark naked in sub zero weather? Its OK. no judgements here. Well, then just Put a pair of 250, or 400w –tube big boys’ in your room and push the ‘fun’ buttons! Problem solved.
Toasty tunes!
A couple hundred pounds more or les, of Class A SS amps does the same thing. Eventually.
It all seems so unnecessary.
Furthermore, routinely notable amplifier makers report the less power used the better the quality of the sound capable of being generated.
Amplifier outputs, electrical attributes, types, designs, aplomb, and honesty are a crucial portion of the mysterious formula for mating them to speakers to achieve the most advantageous or desired presentations. Though it appears wattage overkill is the new gear in the acceleration of ultra audio.
The amplifiers that can achieve these remarkable outputs and demonstrate delicious sound in lock step continue to distance themselves with their stratospheric price tags.
If the chase was not at all about acquiring as much fascination and intrigue as the goal, with costs being a real world factor, questions like this would not arise. (egg., aforementioned abruptly deceased feline. What? Too soon?)
Could it be true the wealth of affordable Class a SS amps are about to become extinct, seldom sought, or eventually merely shadowy memories due to the lowering IMP of current and forthcoming speakers?
Will amp makers ever find the equation that enables lots o’watt amps to deliver the sound quality of lower powered, quite intriguing amps akin to SETs, PP Tris OTL, Pass’ First Watt, and the like?
Will speaker makers ever escalating advances in tech finally yield transducers possessing easier, rather than more difficult speaker IMPs as the ‘rule, and thereby reverse this low IMP ‘cookie cutter’ tendency ?
How much more difficult is it about to become for the median of audio devotees to establish exemplary performing systems without the need for a second mortgage, or logging onto Craig’s List to sell a kidney?
There seems no ‘one size fits all’ answer but there are plenty of questions surrounding the direction home audio speaker and amplifier manufacturers are now pursuing and what lays just beyond the horizon for audio disciples. Several, however, are presented here for your consideration.
So the thread's title alone begs this question…
“At the end of the day, with respect to the lowering of IMPs in speakers and increasing outputs of amplifiers, is the ‘light’ at the end of the tunnel a train?”
Or, should we simply ‘pay no attention to the ‘disturbance’ behind the curtains”.
thank you all for your thoughtful input.
6 responses Add your response
Pehare > .... Thinking back to the early 90's I had a system with Klipsch Chorus speakers & a Carver Blindjim > Carver was the one named entity I was going to insert into this saga as an or the, exception to the rule. Carver’s Phase Linear amp line was around long before it was shiek or absolutely necessary. It used to be all about tubes and horns. Or tubes and quite sensitive speakers and fidelity was not a huge priority right off. SQ took a little while to become popular. H.B. or was it, H.H. Scott was one maker that strove for a more pleasant presentation … among others. Fischer, Wurlitzer, RCA, etc. propelled the movement. A dark theme IMO is what I’ve perceived with this big watts low IMP speakers. SS became an option for the public mainly due to lower costs as speakers migrated away from the 10, 16, and higher ohm speakers to lower sensitivity sorts. SS also became cheaper to mass produce and economics alone made up many minds to switch gears into this new approach. Its all changed slowly and suddenly to lessen the options for the sincere audio nuts intent on piecing together outstanding home audio arrangements. My own curiosity in this surrounds the why of it all, more than who’s pushing this tendancy forward. A big flashing neon sign reading ‘MONEY’ keeps blinking in my mind as the rationale. Its just cheaper for speaker makers to knock out a 4 ohm design than it is to do higher IMP units. Amp makers then are all but forced to follow along, change, or quit the biz altogether. As a true outside the box innovator, Bob Carber released a while back, a line source speaker system with great tube friendly specs in the not out of the question price range around the mid teens. Multi driver modular fully adjustable akin to Wilson and others. It is not an active system. Fully or partially active speaker systems now seem the wave of future speaker systems more people can acquire and still have very good flexibility with a wide variety of amplification. That’s not an altogether bad thing I don’t think. |
See many 100 or so watt Solid State Statement amps lately Its OK to be told what you can not have any longer. It is like being pushed around on the playground by bullies. C’mon. Cat got your tongue? I’m not keen on the idea that I’ve got to get deep into high EFF transducers & pure sound amps, or that I must get well into harder to push spkrs with heavy hitting amps becoming more a must than a choice. Finding the remote option that says “go semi or fully active” as your last resort is not very appealing either. 4 ohm and less IMP speaker systems must be the softer easier path, and amp makers are as well being forced to accommodate them. Is it such a difficult thing to make quality speakers that can afford a wealth of various amp topologies and power outputs with which to be compatible? |
douglas_schroeder > So, what are you actually going to buy? Blindjimn > Hi doug. No freakin’ clue. Well, kind of… Assuming you are talking about speakers…. What ever sounds best seems the politically correct response. I hope its something modest output tube amps can drive handily. I’m reserving judgement until I hear as many as possible on my short list, and rooting for the ones that are less than $20K individually, amp and speakerwise or under $40K total for the setup. Less than $40K total would not upset me at all. If its about the particular combo paring… I dunno. Yet. I don’t have much faith in the mega watt amp plus low IMP spkr. yielding the sort of sound I could be happy with or afford. As money is as usual an object of consideration I’m beginning to lose confidence that I will be able to buy the level of performance in high watt SS amps I first thought possible. Not terribly in love with the idea of pitching that amount into them either as time passes. Reassessing the budget and lowering it some on one, likely speakers, should help though I would prefer not to at all on either side of the coin which is the frustration that compelled me to submit this topic. The ‘man behind the curtains’ mystery hinges a little now on what you previously stated about why costs for some amps is ridiculously high lately. Production. Inventory. Margins. Make more statement stuff, less entry or moderate gear… and make more money with less overall investment. Everything would be far simpler to mate amps to speakers if spkr makers made them easier to drive. Or, I’d like to think so anyhow. Easier electronically, perhaps not subjectively though. As a W.A.G. – a new PP tube amp, DAC, my line stage, a couple PCs & ICs, new PLC, and a pair of tritons. Or Carvers line source speakers. Maybe a pr of Martins or devores. Once I hear the KEFs and Vas I’m praying the world will be much more transparent. Hybrid amps and or semi – fully active speakers are the only other option I see if my more traditional path can not be realized. I’m not yet in love with that scenario. It will all get into focus after some of my pending medical issues are resolved and I’m able to travel freely and get some first hand EXP. |
Looking back I should have named this thread: Why speaker designers have chosen 4 ohm impedance rather than higher IMP designs … or why have they chosen 4 ohm over 8 ohm The link at the bottom of this post is to another thread from 2013 which elaborates in depth on many aspects of the 4 ohm IMP speaker design trek modern transducer makers have embraced. Both amp and speaker makers chime in. Remember too, its now four years later and the 8 ohm models are getting more and more scarce. The input on that thread is immense. Mind numbingly technical. From it one can readily glean one vital point among a wealth of others, the greatest why of it all is simple. Volume? Yep. volume. Well, and cost. One of the glaring obstacles for obtaining the best sound then is not merely to have a competent powerful amp but to also have one whose sonic manners are as close to unimpeachable as possible. Unimpeachable equates to impeccable, faultless, and just flat out killer sounding, or really freakin’ good. Words with that many letters in this hobby are directly proportionate to an old adage , ‘back up the Brinks truck. If you want one that is. A more subtle and darker attribute is many very proficient amps of slighter builds are now off the table for consideration. Essentially the lower IMP speaker movement reduces choices for amplifier matching. Further, the lower Q spkrs demand more stallwart , and talented voicing from an amp very often. Again, increasing the cost for said amp, and for many, lessening the possible contenders in the 2017 AFL (audio fidelity lovers) draft of amps. No matter how one slices this pie, it will not taste good to the majority of pie lovers. Rather than ignore the elephant in the room and sheepishly follow along without objection, I’d prefer to find out what and how others feel about this intentional price escalating parade. The balloons in this one are not Bulwinkle and Rocky, they are instead, inflatable’s resembling towering speakers and solid state mono amps with “COST NO OBJECT” tattoos. Perhaps too, this note and more like it could at least increase awareness the current movement is headed towards a much smaller pond. Not sure what it will take to enable former or new speaker designers to begin providing more ‘old school’ higher Q alternatives for quality loudspeaker designs and production. Probably just more noise on their emails, and phones. Change. That’s the point. Change sure seems in order. Change will not occur without action. Well, not a desirable less expensive change. Vinyl’s recent comeback is a prime example change can and does occur, and that change does not always have to be negative. Neither is it as insurmountable as it appears. Its like a ticking bomb. Leave it alone and it will go boom soon. Errantly defuse it and go boom. Don’t try to difuse it and it will boom too. But if it can be contained or rendered benign, life becomes sensible again. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-s-with-4-ohm-speakers it appears to be the gorilla in the room no one wishes to address. |