Just go hear s field cool design. Then you'll be hooked. Happy listening
Single driver vs traditional 3 way loudspeakers
What you prefer , single driver , no crossover, full range loudspeakers powered by low power SAT or traditional 2-3 way design ?
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The best MTMs I've ever heard were ribbon/planar/round
OK now we are talking a ribbon might work, vs a midtweet. I said might.. I'd have to hear a ribbon mid tweet vs the 2 SEAS top mid-tweets. Which are the Cresendo and my Millennium. Thing is, tell me ifa ribbon has that same liability/weakness as a planar..which is a narrow dispersion,,which i know is the case,,, which is why 1 speaker design using ribbons has 3 in a straight line row for just that reason, = 3 ribbons = $$$$$ vs Milleniums $250/Cresendo's $300. 3 good ribbons = 300 each thats $900 and still that narrow sweet spot would just grate my nerves. |
Love this topic! FR speakers certainly have their limitations. They have a very specific sound signature that may not be to everyones taste. I've built a couple, for myself and friends. My "Pitch" to my friends if they already have something good, but a bit "generic" in their system, is "these will sound very different than what you have, why build another like the one you already have?" They breathe in my experience of them. There is an openness and airiness that comes through quite beautifully. I find them not fatiguing in any way and can have them on all day. Running a single 4" driver, I don't find I'm missing much from the manifold horns I built. An 8" pair I built for my friend really kick!!! 105db and no strain whatsoever. Granted, it was harpsichord music, but it sounded effortless. As did the Gregorian Chant we were playing at similar volume. The "Serious Fun" by Lester Brown, which is not an easy recording to reproduce, came across beautifully!!! No strain, nothing out of place, just nice (albeit loud...) And I did tell my friend, that if we get complaints and the neighbours call the police (we were playing this at 1am in a residential area downtown) I would just leave and let him explain the harpsichord being played so loud. I'm a fan for sure. Will be transitioning to Coax drivers I suspect, using a similar cabinet design, but utilizing a crossover for the tweeter. Here is a link to some I've built: https://www.frugal-horn.com/downloads/SpawnHorn-v2-planset-181117.pdf Also built these, still to be completed... https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/recom_enclose/108ez_encl.pdf All this to say, I like low power, single FR speakers... |
I have Maggie’s in two other systems, but I built a single-driver speaker after building the Pass Amp Camp Amp (8 watts class A). I was so pleased with the amp’s pure sound that I built another, and then a Pass diy Balanced Zen preamp. Each of these use minimal components and simple circuits with the goal of leaving the signal as unmolested as possible. So the next step in the simplicity chain was the speaker, diy of course. The result, after experimenting with sealed vs. ported and various degrees of acoustic stuffing, was a 6.5-inch “full-range” driver in a smallish bookshelf, ported enclosure. I went with a 95-dB Dayton Audio driver from Parts Express. It had a neodymium magnet in a cast frame and other recommended attributes, and then a Kevlar/paper cone with a whizzer and phase plug. It’s pretty good sound, similar to the Boston Acoustics HD5s they replaced but much more efficient. I later added a Martin Logan 400 sub, since my Dayton mic and sound software confirmed a pretty steep roll off below about 100 Hz. It’s all a trade-off. No crossover, but not “full-range“ either. Small enclosure, but I didn’t have room for larger. Still, in the all-important midrange, it’s very good. And that’s my diy “simplicity” setup. |
What a great hobby this is. I am on a shoestring budget (thanks WAF), so only purchase used and only buy something after selling something else. Latest gig is AN 8" alnico drivers, and an Aragon Soundstage pre and Acurus A250 power. Listening volume hovers around 60-62 db, so little worry about the amp-to-driver power handling ratio. Krall sounds awesome, so do Nouela and Nils Lofgren. Late night solo listening is magic. Cheers all. |
mozartfan1,578 posts08-05-2020 4:10pm2nd best ever design 2 way 8 or 10 inch midwoofer + midtweet, as 2nd place, all others, ALL Others 3 rd place, Wilons B$W's Theils vandy's etc all 3rd place designs FR last place, just below next to last place of speakers I hate are The Famous (??) Planars,, i hate Planars, next I hate FR. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't listen to this guy, He has absoluetly no idea what the heck he is blabbing, Guy says FR, last place,hahahaha Truth is Wide bands take top prize in that ever elusive most difficult fz range to get neutral, natural, non colored, no fatigue, Top Dawgs. Obviously he has not ever heard a hifi Wide Band. Good grief.... |
mozartfan1,579 posts08-06-2020 7:10pm low power SAT OP, mentions a SET amp, = I hate SET amplification. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hahaha Who is this guy?? Again he obviously has not hheard a SET amp. SETs are wonderful, They offer all the power one could ever need/want/wish for to drivea nice dual low db woofer + WBer + tweeter. PP or SET your free choice.. Put that guy on ignore. SETs low powered he say, SETs offer up to 20++ wattage. far more than needed to push a nice Wide Band + low sns woofer + tweeter 3 way.. 1st reseach then make a comment, please |
Someone mentioned WBers have some issues with midrange, bass and highs. Yes and no, there are beautiful sounding midrange WBers and then there are just OK/sos midrange sounding WBers. Obviously we are all only interested in top dawgs. Bass, I get pretty goodbass out the DLVX8 and the DLW4. The Seas W18E001's add some nuances 40hz-1600hz Highs? No problem Paper tweet + Mundorf 2.2 SESGO cap, adds some charms. The whizzer in the DLVX8 is very accurate on vocals and all instrumentation in jazz/classical/piano, Very neutral. I've looked over all the newest WBers, The 2 that i can afford and find pretty good are the DavidLouis and Tang Band About to add a Tang Band W31878 Its been out some time now, maybe 8 years, has that spiked center phase pulg which eliminates beaming. Can't wait to add it to the DLVX8 and DLW4. It will be a sort of 3 way WBer with dual W18's+ tweeter. Adding the TBW31878 will make my design the very 1st of its kind. No one else in the Inet has made a WBer 3 way. My concept is the 1st of its kind. The TB1878 has to sing as good/better than the W8+W4 or it can not stay. |
has that spiked center phase pulg which eliminates beaming.This conclusion is false. What the phase plug does is prevent cancellation from one side of the cone to the other, so the highs generated can actually be heard. It does not prevent beaming at all; that is simply a thing if you have 'full range' drivers without a tweeter. |
FR speakers certainly have their limitations. They have a very specific sound signature that may not be to everyones taste.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll if we make the 20hz-40hz fq range a limitation then yeah, WBers fall shot here. But again in my classical music, cellos lowest notes are in the low 60hz range. Jazz fans also, not much below say 30hz. Less than 1% of the music is below 40hz *Signature sound*. I find xover types all suffer froma *House Sound* Bose, B&W's havea distinct sound,,which we all tend to avoid. My Seas Thors were extremely neutral, = no house sound, Perfectly natural in voicing. But at 87db, = wet blanket sound. All WBers will differ in sound. The Tang BandW82145 and the DavidLouis VX8, sounded nearly identical. I shiped the TB2145 back, although it is a winner, But I just now realized with that aluminum phase plug, it may very well have beamed highs. The DLVX8 with a unique phase plug + whizzer has very little beam effect. **Not to everyones taste** Fact it, the hard truth is Audiogon is a xover traditional 3 way discussion board. Most of the members have yet to hear any WBer in action,. Perhaps the old Lowthers, Fostex's back 20 years ago, Those don't count today. WBers have come a longggggg way since those 2 early models. |
atmasphere9,806 posts10-14-2021 1:53pm has that spiked center phase pulg which eliminates beaming.This conclusion is false. What the phase plug does is prevent cancellation from one side of the cone to the other, so the highs generated can actually be heard. It does not prevent beaming at all; that is simply a thing if you have 'full range' drivers without a tweeter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well I may have ead something in the descript about the odd spiked phase plug as helping eleiminate some beaming effect. I vaguely recall now the Tang Band 2145 8 may have had beaming issues. I only had it testeda few hours then boxed it up and shipped it back I was unaware of this beaming effect at that time, 3 Months ago, Its still a very accurate midrange speaker with great bass (considering it is a wide band) and has IMHO excellent highs. I say IMHO , due to this prejudice that WBers lack the ultra highs. If you want ultra highs witha WBer set up grab any hifi tweet and there you go you got it. Lack of 20-40hz bass and ,,say 12K++ highs really is not a issue with me as far as WBers are concerned. The mids in my WBer 2 way is a voicing that i have not heard in any xover style speaker. My guess is over the comming decades more folks will want to know more about these WBer *things*. Looked over the DavidLouis for about 3 years before I made purchase. After 6 or 7 trial N error I found what I was looking for. |
Well I may have ead something in the descript about the odd spiked phase plug as helping eleiminate some beaming effect.It doesn't. It allows you to hear highs that you would not otherwise. That is why any 'full range' driver is nicely supplemented by a tweeter, which might operate at only 10KHz and above. I've had them work nicely by having the tweeters firing to the rear so that if you are a bit off-axis, the tonal balance is still correct. When on-axis, if the speaker is far enough from the rear wall, the rear-firing tweeters will help the speaker play a more distinct image. |
"That is why any 'full range' driver is nicely supplemented by a tweeter," Exactly. Any full range driver ( use pretty big cone) need to help in HF. usually all driver Co , say ---16-20Khz, but don't say what is level down 6db or more, Actually start to go down from 8Khz .Whizzer cone is stupid idea, yes is adding high , but is not control. sometimes is make sound too bright |
6db or more, Actually start to go down from 8Khz .Whizzer cone is stupid idea, yes is adding high , but is not control. sometimes is make sound too bright ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll 8khz or 10k hz, makes no difference. WE are really enjoying our WBers for their incredible unique midrange voicing. Its very esay to add any tweeter for the 8khz - 15khz. Any old tweeter will do. But I demand 91/92db sens. Again, not all whizzer cones are poor fidelity. The DavidLouis VX8 somehow has cloned the AER/Voxativ design quite well. And the sound is super. Whereas the Tang band 2145 has no whizzer, has this unique aluminum phase plug which has very nice highs 12khzish,,,but if I recall (??) had some beaming going on. Whereas the DavidLouis has no more beaming that any tweeter has beaming. Tang Band has 2 models with unique spiked phase plugs to help eliminate beaming.. Which atmasphere didagrees. If you read the cation, mentions unique PP spiked for better highs dispersion. I plan to add the W3 1878 sometime in janurary. Those lil guys aren’t cheap at $260/pair. Tang Band knows its their best and wants the cash. The TB W4’s are $250 each and they are SELLING!!!!! = $500 a pair for a little 4 inch cone!!!!!! Worth it, as the magnet structure is a good bit heavier. All I need is the W3, Will be a nice addition to the DLVX8 and DLW4. Will add some nice rich sparkles to the highs. Only 88db sens, =its ok, as the VX8 is 92 and W4 91db. So 88 db will be perfect, as a back up voice to what I have now. 4 way speaker, maybe a 5 way. If you consider dual W18E001.s a ,,,let me add up all the drivers,,, 5 way speaker, but has 6 drivers in each channel. |
Not any tweeter , we are using top of the line supertweeter Fostex EX line . . we try to use DavidLois, vox, clone.order one pair ebay and Compare to 2145 TB, decide to stay TB, and DL sold. for my expirence measuring and listening , whizzer cone little differences, diff resonance depending of size and configuration , but using same idea, on resonance fr, got peak and go down rapidly to 10hz, definitely much more worse than tweeter, but some folks like it and enjoining , |
Well as a speaker lab, I know costs come in as a factor $250 vs $550. Sound is very close, so good move. But in my case, I prefer the DL over the TB. + as i mentioned, perahps , can't completely recall, but i do remember the Tang Band's phase plug did exhibit a little beaming. Which is why the W3/W4 have this spiked PP. The DL does not have as much beaming so the sweet spot if not a issue as with the TB2145. IMHO the whizzer is not the issues in past Foxtex/Lowther models. Its the material used to make the cones and also the inner construction/magnet type that made the early WBers (pre 2010) have some coloration. The Whizzer performs excellent as it gives mids/highs a bit more openess , dispersion and sound stage. I must have a whizzer in a W6/W8 In a W3/W4 whizzer not needed. My DL W4 has a whizzer , but its really tiny and voices accurate. The DLVX8 whizzer is a work of art and technical achievement. Some chinese tech geek really cloned the AER/Vox with great success. And am I glad he did. Saved me alotttt of cash. Will be a interesting shootout the TBW3/1878 VS the DLW4 Both will remain, regardless how the shootout goes. |
Ok , we have different point of view on whizzer , for me whizzer cone is parasitic element came to stereo hi end from cinema-pro era, where was used huge cone driver with whizzer cone loaded Tube, The freg 8-10KHz good enough fo quality sound in cinema. There is only one benefit for Whizzer ( mechanical tweeter) no crossover , no capacitor , no any phase distortion, Many audiophile like it ( inc you liked it) , so good for you, |
But when you consider AER/Vox/Festrex all 3 big WBer labs employ whizzers. They must have tested with and w/o whizzers. To me its not important whizzer or no whizzer, only the acutal sound matters to me. Still waiting for your imput as to the TB 2145's beaming effect. I could swear I heard soemthing of that affect in my 2 day testing. . So if the 2145 does present some beaming,, well then yeah no whizzer *IS* a problem. Which is why I think they designed the spiked PP in the W3/W4's. I mean to me beaming not a big issue as i am sitting in one spot,, HOWEVER if I can find a speaker that has much less beaming, and sounds on same hifi level (as does the DLVX8) well then I'd rather have the less beam speaker. I know you want to defend the 2145 at all costs, as it is your main speaker in the design. Had I made more extensive testing of the 2, I might be able to find reasons to place the DLVX8 above the TB2145. My review states *nearly identical** I am retracting now, the DLVX8 **I prefer over * the TB2145. Close call, But if only 1 gets the cigar, well then DLVX8 gets the Cuban. Mark Audio no whizzers Fostex's top of line, whizzer. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-fullrange/fostex-fe208ns-8-full-range/ |
No This is Fostex's top line 8 Sigma NO whizzer. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-fullrange/fostex-fe208ez-8-full-range-sigma-series/ |
8" sigma is no good I , not for me, very bad freq response, if you see this got the pick about 10 db on 3.5Hkz , cone break , same f-n issue like TB 1808 and illuminate on TB 2145 , i guess the cone is too light , 2145 got fiber on paper and does not this issue, and definitely requered super tweeter , fr response go down after 5 KHZ. No good for customers , |
Last year, I spent 3 hours on each occasion - critical listening sessions to Charney and the Cube Audio Nenuohar. And I didn’t much like either. There was no intimacy or dynamic range to me. I much preferred multi driver speakers and acquired Harbeth 40.2’s over them. I suspect my ear- brain connection is simply too slow to pick up all the downsides commonly associated with multi drivers. |
**single base Ls..* translate Sure other than you and I, there really aren't more than a few others here on Agon who are into (= hold the belief WBers represent the ultimate speaker design, 2nd to none, cultists, heretics, philistines) WBers as most practical, most hifi speaker design of all speaker designs. Including ZU's *morphed WBer things* Have no idea what's up with that speaker. Nothing I like about the company. Your lab is wayyy ahead of the curve. As I mentioned the sky is the limit. These WBers are the real deal. So yeah i can give you my imput/ideas. Its just a matter of time before your lab becomes a big hit. So if I were you i'd really get ideas going and make some plans to work on new designs. I plan to add the TBW31878 , this will give me 3 WBers in each channel, + the W18's, + a tweeter. I really got things rockin here. I googled alot to try to find if any one else has such a design So far no one. I think my 3 WBer speaker is the only speaker with this concept. I'd add it today if I could, but the past yr WBer experiementation has busted the audio piggy bank, |
bache OP389 posts10-16-2021 3:17pmSorry , loudspeakers based on one driver, Single driver loudspeakers, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Politely argue with that subjective opinion. I’ve tried it and it works If you find its not acceptable, nor even practical, I understand you need to carter to what sells, your customers, I plan to have 3 WBers in each channel. Might work, might not, The W8W4 will stay til..... Diana Krall’s voice never sounded so poetic and beautiful. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now on to this Q!. WE list all speaker designs Concentric /Zu’s, Tannoy Horns Panels/stats. xover box types Last but most certainly not least... we have the WBers/FC’s. Make a column for each design The strengths in 1 column and the weakness/downside in the next column. Lets see what we come up with. The only 2 weaknesses that might appear in the WBer column is bass/highs roll off. Other than that. ,,,,, Tally will show WBers the winner. |
bache OP389 posts10-16-2021 12:13pm8" sigma is no good I , not for me, very bad freq response, if you see this got the pick about 10 db on 3.5Hkz , cone break , same f-n issue like TB 1808 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes I looked at the db/hz chart,, odd looking,,has this weird break /dip in the mids,, very odd. Never seen any chart like it. Besides I did not care for any YT vid of any Fostex, definetly not my cup of tea. And yes i think word is out the TB 2145 beats out both TB 1808 and TB1772 Both 1808 and 1772 have Neo pill type magnets. Too small IMHO, This pill Neo Dymium magnet design is also in the TB W3 and TBW4,, my guess is a better performance as the cones are very small and the size of the pill magnet looks more than beffy enough to push both to gorgeous performance. = SLAMMM The TB 2145 has a massive ferrite which really is superior to those tiny pill Nd magnets. I have ideas on a world class WBer design. Invlves 2 WBers + dual 8 inch magnesium woofers + a Be/Nd magnet tweeter. all parts under $3k, will beat out any speaker on the market. In every department. Will annihilate any Zu , any Wislon, any Tekton. There top 3 speakers shot down with 1 draw of the gun. Thats one bad gun slinger shoots 3 gunners with 1 single shot. Nothing will touch it. |
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Here is the single good full range driver implementation without front horn I have heard. Tune Audio Marvel https://youtu.be/JCLuH_NeVgI They use Fostex FE208EZ without whizzer and tweeter with big horn. The crossover point between full range driver and tweeter is 2500HZ. |
A huge system from Russia - AER driver with big AER transparent horn + 2 x 4 x 15inch bass drivers. Start listen from 1:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF_ZeYVgAf4&t=4913s |
Most of full range drivers have incline frequency response. And with a backloaded horn implementation they have a dip in lower midrange that causes dry and bright sound. To compensate it front horn should be added. A good example is AER big transparent horn. I don't have experience for adding super tweeters to full range. But with compression driver horns - 4th order crossover works 1000 times better vs 1st order crossover!!! Much less high midrange distortion, sound smoother more detailed, bigger and deeper soundstage, better clarity and separation. You can follow over interpretation more easy and enjoy music. I always used forward firing super tweeter and I did alignment for both 1st and 4rd order crossover implementations. |
The db/fq chart does have some value. I know/ can understand that a chart with too many peaks/dips and the size of each dip/peak, does equate to either superior sound or equates to midrange stress aka distortion, coloration, = aka The Dreaded Mionster n who goes by the name Monster Fatigue. The davidlouis W4 has a very nice clean relatively smooth chart, vs the Dayton W3 from parts Express DavidLouis W4 @ $175/pr vs DaytonW3 @ $60/pr. Here is the Tang Band W3 1878 chart. Nearly identical to the DavidLouis W4., except the DL W4 has big roll off on highs. I can just tell from looking at this chart this speaker sounds super fidelity. Which is why TB has it priced correctly. $130/each. Their W4 with special PP fetches $230 EACH!!! TB1878 chart. No roll off past 20khz!!! that entire chart looks gorgeous. The thing is hitting 60hz’s @ 80db,, UNREALLLL http://www.tb-speaker.com/products/w3-1878 |
ok just found the chart for the DavidLouis W4. Might be back in stock, not sure anywayy db/fq chart shows very poor behavior. Dips and peaks all over and has the highs extended past 20khz. In my ststem the highs seem rolled off at 12khz,, So this proves charts are not not that helpful/ With a chart like this, I would believe the speaker has stressed/distorted mids. Which it does not. Mids have no stress, clean, clear and good bass, at 80hz shows 85db = valid, not hyped. I have no idea which is the superior speaker DLW4 Nd or TBW31878 Nd (pill type magnet) Both will have a home in my system. https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32808654531.html |
Interesting I recall a ONKYO amp I had back in the 80's had a built in 5 level EQ. I liked playing with it. I just ran all EQ's all the way up except the middle eq. I'm not that interested in the EQ test, although as you say might show some weakness. You might find usage as you design and build for customers. I'm pretty happy with the 2 DL's, and am sure the additon of the Tang band W3 will also add some nice charms. I knid of ... you know what,,,In fact what you are saying has some truth...The DLVX8 all by iteslf is quite livable, I have no issues with it as a stand alone speaker But thought, since I have the DLW4 just sitting in the closet,,why not see what happens along with the DLVX8. BINGO,,the EQ's missing in the DLVX8 were padded by the EQ's in the DLW4. Diana Kralls voice just came to life. Apparently whatever EQ's were weak in the DLVX8 were padded by the EQ's in the W4. No speaker is perfect flat response. |
Not sure where to get this EQ you are talking about.. Ebay?? Price? The WBer experiements set me back, audio budget very tight. So what is your purpose of testing EQ in your lab. To ck to see where a speaker is weak? I am not sure what the reason is testing EQ? I am sure if I hook the W8 or W4 or even my complete 4 way speaker to some EQ gadget, like having say 10 EQ levers,, I am sure the sound,,or lets say, some fq ranges that I perfer might geta boost in some recordings. But then the musc has to pass through this gadget = more distortion. EQ gadget may boost FQ's, but adds distortion. The EQ thing on the Onkyo sounded better in off mode. Not sure why you don't play around with the davidLouis VX6 and add in a TB W3. Then add a pair of DavidLouis Magnesium 8's per cabinet and then add in the Davidlouis Be/Nd tweeter. 25cm , not the 28. I think you''ll be pleasantly surprised. That combo will beat my system, perhaps, ,, magnet system is a beast. IMHO Magnesium is the best cone material to intergrate intoa WBer system, as its neutral /not warm. vs paper types which i don't like. I know you offer paper 10's, not my cup of tea. Too muddy/boomy. https://www.ebay.com/itm/324521174123?hash=item4b8ef8246b:g:BFIAAOSwoRRg1EKi |
You are quite right Eric. Tannoy makes coaxial speakers. Coaxial speakers provide the magic that those with full range drivers are looking for. Maybe that should be rephrased. What I assume those with full range drivers are looking for. Tannoy and Altec got it right decades ago. Point source is where it's at. |
Everyone's talking cones. By far the best approach to a full range single driver speaker is electrostatic ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now wait just 1 minute there. A xover low sens cone is not the same asa WBer cone. Totally different speakers. Its xover low sens (SB Acoustics/Seas/Scanspeaks vs WBers) Stats/panels have issues/complexities.that WE9The WBer cultists) don't want to deal with. Horns vs Stats vs low sensxover types vs WBers. Take your pick. |