Kiddman,
I prefer when ever possible the simple alternatives and can appreciate the "concept" of the single driver/ no Xover. However as you point out the reality is a different matter. I'll choose an easy load high efficiency speaker with more drivers with a simple 1st order Xover as the best compromise for my needs.
Charles, |
Every speaker design is a based on compromises, and how you react to those compromises, what your room is like, and how loud you listen will determine whether or not you like the single driver sound. I'm setup in a small room with a near field arrangement. 80 db at the listening chair is very loud for me. Most of my listening is done at lower levels.
If I was in a bigger room and if I liked to crank it up and if I wanted to really get quality bass below 60hz, I would not be happy at all with my system. For me, these are compromises I can easily live with.
After having lived with single drivers, I'm always shocked when I place conventional speakers in my systems. My first thoughts are always gosh, the sound is so muddled and for lack of better words kind of phasey and echoey sounding. I hear things from speakers that I'd lived with prior to my single driver setups that I'd never noticed at all in hundreds of hours of listening. I suppose I'm reacting to crossovers, sound coming from multiple sources, voices being played at the same time by two different sources and maybe drivers operating out of phase with each other. Things I suppose my ear had become accustomed to in the past and my brain learned to ignore.
That said, with conventionals I can start to now turn it up and appreciate the bigger more visceral sound attainable with multiple driver setups. It's nice, but not a trade off I like to make. I've played with my single driver setup in a larger room, and then all of the sudden, I can start to hear the flaws and limitations as volume requirements are now completely different.
Live music is big, impactful and can be full of low frequency energy. It also has a speed and a presence; an immediacy. For some reason, it is that speed and directness that I react to, and I get it with single drivers more than multiples. Like I said though, I think it works for me because of my room size and listening levels and I can completely understand how it's not a trade off that others can't appreciate. |
The right 2 way system with a compression driver would open up your ears and eyes. Small room, yes. Directness, yes. Much lower distortion, great dynamics. |
Its probably more than just the speakers. More amps can shine with what they do better when a flat extended low end is taken out of the picture. Very low power tube amps the most. You have to have very large and very efficient speakers, likely horn loaded, to do flat extended bass out of a few watts. There is simply no other way. Most music occurs in the midrange though so getting it just right there can go a long way. Not everyone needs 20-20k hz flat at live like listening levels. Its also a good recipe for maintaining one's hearing. So lots of benefit to outweigh the trade offs. |
Rebbi,
I believe I was the first in your SET thread to suggest building a kit
Your Welcome :) I am so happy you are going down the kit route and will follow your blog with interest.
Just read through this post and my thoughts turn like a few others to Tannoy. I heard the Kensingtons a few years ago and will never forget that experience. Seemed like pure music flowing out of those speakers.
My thoughts also naturally turn to Audio Note Speakers since you are building an Audio Note amp. None of these are single drivers but they do sound gooood!
Regards Jet |
I'm taken but not surprised to read all the negatives about single driver speakers. Yes, they have their limitations but some are executed quite nicely. I had some Hornshoppe Horns that were very satisfying for a couple of years but I decided it was time to move on and I got some Tonian Labs Tl-D1s that are basically, a single driver speaker augmented by a super tweeter and it's been all I've needed since.
The designer, Tony Manasian, also had some great PHY based speakers that would likely keep me happy for a long time even if he didn't have the tweeters.
It all depends on what floats your boat and what you float that boat with. Calm waters are an easier load for a smaller, lighter vessel while rougher waters are handled by an entirely different, more robust vessel. Synergy is required for everything to work properly.
All the best,
Nonoise |
All fullrange driver get some weakness points, it is reason
why audiophile prefer traditional 3 way design. The best
idea the using Full range driver in 500-10000 Hz region.
No any full range driver FRD coudnt compare with good woofer
Any whizzer cone coudnt compare with Air transformer to
produce good high, any thing else is the dreams. Also
all FRD get suckout in midbass, so if you add Sub is not solve the problem
|
Well, saying what audiophiles prefer is not necessarily a great point of credibility, based on what sells in the audiophile market! How about what music lovers prefer? |
Jetrexpro,
Okay THANK YOU! :-)
Got the first box from Brian a couple of days ago and will post blog photos and pics soon. Packed like a labor of love, I'll say that!
Two more boxes to go. One heavy one with transformers due in a couple of days and a third after that with some tubes that were backordered.
No plans to dump my De Capos any time soon... |
Open baffle fr (visa ton b200 imo) with 15" Hawthorne Augie... You run the visaton or fostex, lowther etc full range and connect a plate amp with pages and xover to the Augie. Game over.
I just came from listening to a $200,000 pair of SOTA speakers, and I prefer the 'cheap' ob. I've tried back loaded horns, various boxes etc. Once I heard single drivers I knew there was no turning back.... But. Always the but.
Google Gravity well of a dark star.
There are many ways to flog a horse so please don't flame me.
But no tannoys, or conventional speakers come close to the OB's in the areas that move me an make me irrationally wild and passionate about this hobby and music in general.
Augies. I swear. |
Oops. A set of triple klh nines and Marantz 9's completely blew my mind earlier this year. Made me want to start over.
Within a week I was happy with the OB's again.
It's so true, each method has its pluses and minuses but if your a single driver freak, I really believe careful augumebtation is the only way to have it 'all' |
Horning Eufrodite: 98 db sensitivity, 8 woofers per side, no crossover. With 10 watts will fill a large room with full-range sound. A very nice speaker. |
Re Audiophle folk and music lovers is not the same? |
Then there's this thread on AudioAsylum on the very same topic... |
They do buzz. That's how they "attempt" to get high frequencies. Resonance, not signal.
AM radio is a great comparison.
Most of those threads are right on.
I thought the Voxactiv might have something after I read about them. How did they overcome the problems, I wondered, after reading. They I heard them. Then again in another setup. Then another setup.
I hear lots of distortion above 2k. Buzzing. Like a "humazoo". Or a kazoo. I can't see anyone how knows the sound of real music not noticing the bad things these do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqTd3zcU--Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oau9gtG5Om8 |
Rebbi,
I am not sure you are going to find a single driver speaker that gives you the magic that your deCappos do. I went down that rabbit hole years ago and didn't like what I heard.
Shakey |
Take a look at This primer on how speakers work. It helps me to actually visualize why conventional full range pistonic drivers might not be such a great idea from a distortion perspective. Bending wave Walsh drivers are much better suited IMHO. Its truly incredible that speakers work as well as they do. Turntables too. Both have the laws of physics surrounding mass and inertia working against them. Not so much a concern with digital, amps, etc. Different physics at work there revolving solely around electricity (no moving parts) that are probably easier to overcome with technology over time in general. |
Shakey,
I'm not really in the market for a single driver speaker; too many limitations and negatives. But I think that the wide-range + tweeter approach is a good one. That's essentially what my De Capo's and the various Tekton models seem to so. You get that coherence with the crossover out of the midrange's way, but you're not asking the main driver to do more than it can physically accomplish in the high end. |
This thread led me to a question that may or may not have an easy answer. Under which scenario is a driver (lets say 7inch) being asked to do more:
1.) Run from about 45 to 5,000 hz
2.) Run from about 65 to 14,000 hz
I'm not sure what taxes a driver more: trying to produce a 45 and 5k hz signal at the same time or a 65 and 14k signal.
Probably not an easy answer for this but if anyone has any ideas, I'd be curious. |
I apologize for coming into this discussion late. IMO there are a very few good single-driver speakers on the market, although not many that are well known. Limitations? Yes, but different and no more than with most "conventional" speaker designs.
One speaker manufacturer that offers an interesting product is EARO, made in Sweden. These are single driver ACTIVE speakers featuring a rear-loaded horn. There are two models, one with an 8" driver and the other using a 5" driver. Frankly, I think that these are among the finest sounding speakers I have ever heard.
*Disclaimer* I am the U.S. dealer for the EARO speaker line. I actually purchased a pair for myself before I decided to sell the line. |
Getting a small driver to do bass is hard. Its a matter of excursion.
Getting it to do the highs is an entirely different problem! You get cancellation in the cone, which is why many single-driver speakers have a device called a phase plug the helps prevent cancellation.
Then you often get comb-filtering effects in the cabinet, which is why the midrange can get harsh (and also why many people prefer open back setups, or else really expensive cabinetry that solves the comb filtering issue...).
So you are right. Not an easy simple answer. |
Rebbi,
Having owned the Tekton Pendragons, and auditioning the Zu Soul Supreme, I am more than happy to retain my Grand Veenas. That said, I would take the Pendragon over the Zu any day.
Shakey |
Been reading this thread with much interest as I've always wanted to see what the so called "magic" of a well executed single driver setup was all about. The closest I've come is my current setup of Ohm Walsh 3's which run a semi full range driver crossed over very high (I believe above 8 or 9K), these speakers do a lot well for me and leave little to complain about.
What's striking to me about this thread is that most people who have converted to single driver systems say it's the "distortion" of multiple drivers and crossovers etc... that they are free from that provide them a clarity and magic that multiple drivers can't match. However,the pro-multi driver guys say that the "distortions" of a single driver trying to produce ALL frequencies is like nails on a chalkboard to them. OK, so where does the truth lay? I suppose somewhere in between? Or is it that peoples hearing is so different from person to person and that what one likes another finds unpleasant? I suppose like most things in this hobby there will never really be a consensus but I find it interesting that the term "distortion" is what most people describe as their reasoning... |
One of teh reasons I like the OHM Walsh CLS speakers so much is that the driver is above the cabinet firing vertically for the low end and wave bending to emit sound horizontally at the higher frequencies. The Walsh operating principle seem to distribute the work along the cone better. I have never heard any OHM CLS driver speaker exhibit any signs of stress or breakup EVER, even operating at high volume outdoors (off a suitable amp). And the sound is always most coherent, as advertised.
Cabinets only come in to play to provide volume needed for bass response and can be easily refurbed and refitted as needed to avoid expensive new cabinets unless desired.
Its a fantastic design with minimal tradeoffs. It does take some getting used to though, more like listening to live music than speakers. |
Audience makes a range of single driver based loudspeakers that solve most of the problems mentioned in this thread. Their downsize is that they are not high sensitivity. |
I haven't mentioned my favs in this thread due to my assumed size speaker you might have been considering but my Rethm Saadhanas run full range with a powered sub for low end fill only. I have a medium sized room and theyre better with a little space behind them. The highs are very solid and smooth, no fatigue, no kazoo distortions, but certainly not as sparkly as some dedicated dome or ribbon tweeters. It's another way to go for single driver set up for low powered amps. I like the Hornings too. But I truly sit in the camp of execution is everything. I didnt go looking for a single driver speaker. I just happened to run into a presentation that fit my ear. |
"Or is it that peoples hearing is so different from person to person and that what one likes another finds unpleasant?"
Much like most choices in life.
Since no speaker is "perfect" you have to choose your distortions and limitations that float one's boat. |
What's striking to me about this thread is that most people who have converted to single driver systems say it's the "distortion" of multiple drivers and crossovers etc... that they are free from that provide them a clarity and magic that multiple drivers can't match. However,the pro-multi driver guys say that the "distortions" of a single driver trying to produce ALL frequencies is like nails on a chalkboard to them. OK, so where does the truth lay? IMO/IME it has everything to do with how hard you push the speaker. If not hard, the single driver speakers will totally deliver! I've heard them sound amazing- especially in smaller (American) rooms (in Europe and other regions where smaller rooms are common, single driver speakers can excel!). But if you like to play at serious volume levels in a bigger room, and especially if you want the bottom octave or two, then you will find single-driver speakers to fall short. I don't think it has anything to do with how we hear. It has everything to do with setup! |
There is one room in my house without sound that a smaller pair of single driver full range speakers would fit into nicely along with a small tube amp. I would only use them for applications involving lower listening volume for sure. |
I second Atmasphere regarding volume limitations. I've also noticed that they excel with certain music types: small group jazz, chamber, vocal, small acoustic ensemble music. I would not recommend single driver for loud rock, electronica, or symphonic music. |
Full range drivers exist that do not restrict SPL but its not going to be under 8in and its not going to be a budget transducer and its cabinet isn't going to be small cheap or easy to construct. I say this as I prepare a BLH of 160lbs each that will be replacing some massive costly electrostatics. |
interesting remarks. i built 2 sets with audio nirvana drivers. an 8 in and a 12 inch. in my humble opinion the laCK bass below 38hz on the 12's is hardly an issue as the mids and, yes!, the highs are incredible. even the 8's did well into the mid 40's. those of you who see rolloff specs dowm 3 db. at almost 15 khz as being clipped in any way are apparently much better at hearing all that detailed sizzle on crash symbols than me. most men only hear to that point anyway as we age. and yes, you need big ported cabinets to get all the bass but i built smaller cabs and they still sound fine in the low end. detail is more important than thump im my listening world. i am runing a 3.5 wpc tube amp and at 97 db eficiency they play plenty loud. |
i need connection with Full range lovers in NY |
Veroman,
Very interesting to me that you built speakers with Audio Nirvana drivers. I've spoken to David Dicks on the phone. I stumbled upon his $1500 300B SET amp and was intrigued, although I ultimately chose to build my own SET amp from a kit. But I've got the DIY bug now and might one day try building one of his designs for the sheer fun of it.
Nobody here has mentioned Omega Speakers and their hemp cone drivers. I've spoken with Louis at Omega, too, and he claims to have conquered the harsh midrange of conventional FR drivers. That's why he makes his own. Anybody have personal experience with the Omega's? Again, not dumping my De Capo's, just curious. |
As I have described in earlier posting, I like fullrange drivers used as wide range drivers in multi-way systems. One of the best for such applications is the old Jensen fieldcoils with the built-in power supplies (e.g. M-10). That driver in an open baffle design, with a super tweeter coming on way on top (only crossover element is a high pass capacitor on the supertweeter) is quite magical and can be played at reasonably high volume.
I recently heard a VERY good, large, open baffle system with a 756 driver and a tweeter. I believe the nominal crossover point was 10k with a 6 db/octave slope. This system had decent frequency balance (light in the deep bass of course, but not as rough and peaky as most single drivers), and had the clear, clean and immediate midrange that is prized by single drive fans. I liked the system, but personally require greater weight for classical orchestral and choral pieces.
I have only heard a few truly full range single driver systems that sounded decent and most of them either had elaborate cabinets and were quite expensive (e.g. Beauhorns), or had breathtakingly expensive drivers (e.g., Feastrix fieldcoil drivers). Even then, for my taste, the immediacy and clarity and microdynamic excellence did not outweight some of the problems with sharp upper midrange peaks and treble peaks (causing raspiness and sibilance), and lack of bass and midbass weight.
Rebbi, if you are inclined to experiment in that area, for decent lower priced drivers look into the Tangband. I have heard a few surprisingly well balanced systems that utilize that driver in both multiway and single driver systems. |
No great highs no great bass just very coherent with BIG pitfalls. |
I've had my Cain & Cain Abbys for a while. I enjoy the sound with an EL34 amp. Often now, I can hear the xover handoff in some multiple driver speakers. I supplement them with a pair of the Pioneer SW8 (Phil Jones designed) subs connected in parallel. I've looked into Voactiv or other drivers but the cost is too high. |
Years ago, I heard a pair of Omegas. I believe it was the Super Alnico Monitors. Anyway, from what I recall, the sound was very nice. Teresonic offers a 30-day trial...with some costs of course. |
