OK, Mr. Smarty Pants, why does the quality of the conductor make any difference? Operators are standing by. Are we now to consider wire directionality a dead donkey? And what about skin effect? Another dead donk, I suppose? Furthermore, if the EM wave travels in the space between the wires it would be traveling in air, so it’s velocity would be nearly 100% the velocity of light in a vacuum, as I already said.
Simple question, or is it...
What exactly is an audio signal made of, and what exactly is the medium it travels through in a cable??
153 responses Add your response
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So the speed of the electric charge flow in a circuit is dependent on the connected load. The greater the load the faster the speed of the electric charge flows through the circuit. The speed of the electric charge is the same speed as the electromagnetic wave energy. Is that correct?Jim, I might be wrong but as I understand it, the speed of electricity in the wire is very slow, since free electrons that carry charge move in random direction on its own and applying electric field (voltage) to a wire will direct them more in one direction (drift velocity). Amount of electric current will be proportional to number of electrons crossing any given point/plane. This number will be proportional to electric field (voltage) and the number of free electrons in given material (material conductivity). This is DC current. It produces magnetic flux around the wire. Product of this flux and electric filed creates energy field. All this is practically stationary and I'm not sure if amount of voltage applied changes speed, but for sure it changes number of free electrons crossing given plane (current). What moves fast is the change in electric charge. Free electrons in the wire (that repel each other) act like water in the pipe - you push on one end and water comes out instantly on the other end. Change in electric charge causes change in magnetic field around the wire resulting in energy field change (increase or decrease). This speed depends only on properties of material surrounding the wire. I know that electric and magnetic fields are always together. Flow of electric charge causes magnetic field while magnetic field induces flow of electric charge. We know that material itself (dielectric absorption) limits how fast magnetic and energy fields change, but I don't know how they affect back rate of change of electric charge. It might be because change in magnetic field produces back opposing electric field. At this point it is all getting very complicated - external magnetic fields, internal magnetic fields, inductance, eddy currents - skin effect etc. |
Let me add my paltry understanding. An audio signal is an electrical signal that replicates a sound wave. The electrical voltage varies in the same way as the sound pressure (wave) that it represents varies. Both in strength and frequency. The varying ac voltage is created by various mechanical to electrical transducers - initially a microphone. Later in the stream, perhaps a phono cartridge. To “transmit” the audio signal, a wire is most often used. The actual transfer mechanism is a transfer of electrical charge within the wire. This is called elecrical current. The speed is irrelevant, since it can transverse your room in a tiny fraction of a second. |
The actual transfer mechanism is a transfer of electrical charge within the wire. This is called elecrical current. The speed is irrelevant, since it can transverse your room in a tiny fraction of aThis is where I get lost. The "charge flow" which is current is very slow it doesn't travel across your room in a tiny fraction of a second, the "energy flow" which is a different thing travels close to the speed of light. |
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The speed is not based on how long it takes for an electron to get from one end of the wire to the other. It is the time it takes for the information to make the trip. One analogy is that of a train. The information that the train is moving gets to the last car much more quickly than the last car reaches the position of the engine. Once the couplers are all taut, the information has traveled from the engine to the last car. |
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jea48 cakids said: The actual transfer mechanism is a transfer of electrical charge within the wire. This is called electrical current. My response: Which creates a magnetic field around the wire, ( part of an electromagnetic wave). Final product? An electromagnetic wave. Signal energy travels, (near the speed of light in a vacuum) in the space (through the dielectric) between the two wires in the form of an electromagnetic wave. The signal energy travels in one direction from the source to the load. >>>>However, if the current is alternating - as it is for virtually all audio cables and power cords and fuses - wouldn’t the electromagnetic wave also be traveling in both directions? 🔛 For speaker cables, current travels to the speaker 🔚 on one wire whilst it travels toward the amplifier 🔜 on the other wire and vice versa. That’s why the electrons reverse direction in each wire during this operation. Also, if it’s true that current travels inside the conductor does that mean it’s the current that is somehow affected by external vibration, RFI and physical asymmetries of the wire itself (directionality)? Finally one wonders why AudioQuest goes out of their way to highly polish the surface of their solid core wire. It that for the benefit of the energy traveling outside the conductor or some other reason? AudioQuest must have a reason, it seems like a lot of trouble for no reason. |
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Do I have biases? Of course we all do. The question is how can I figure out is it my bias or is it something else. I've already tried the , is this cable better? Is this DAC better? Game. I found out I couldn't tell humpty from dumpty. So yes diving into all this about how electricity works doesn't really confirm my bias it confirms I let my bias control me for to long. |
djones51 No. It’s old stuff. The reasons can be found in a marketing 101 course. The more I read about "electricity" the more satisfied i am with my basic cables. Yeah, sure. You my friend are what we call around these parts a pseudo skeptic. No offense intended. 😬 |
Let me tell you about leaning. Most people, not everyone, has forgotten what they were taught in school a very Long time ago. And most of what you’re taught you actually never have to use on the job anyway. So you forget it super-fast. In the end, unless you have an overriding reason to learn some new body of knowledge you’re pretty much stuck with, how can I say it, nothing! Knowledge is defined as what’s left after you subtract everything you forget. 😳 |
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Unfortunately, gentle readers, we are no closer to the answer than when we started. Perhaps it really wasn’t a simple question after all. None of the evidence presented by anyone, including supposed experts, explains why the conductor influences the sound. We know that silver is more conductive than copper but often copper sounds better. It all depends. We also presume that oxygen-free copper and long crystal copper And high purity copper and silver generally sounds better than ordinary lamp cord, no? And that all cables sound better in one direction vs the other direction. This is not some new tangled theory, folks. And I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Something must be traveling inside the conductor, gentle readers. But what? 😳 Current? Then how can current be affected by vibration or the physical asymmetry of the Wire? Capish? |
@jea48 The majority of my posts on the subject have been quotes from articles and white papers. My comments have been in reference to the quoted material.This is from your links as well how do you explain it? http://amasci.com/elect/vwatt1.html HOW CAN THE ELECTRONS FLOW SLOWLY, WHILE ELECTRICAL ENERGY FLOWS FAST?This is saying that Energy flows outside the wires, Charge flows inside the wires but part of that energy, JOULES of electrical energy, are attached to the wire and FLOW with the electrons. |
It sounds like when the signal is broken down into it's constituent parts and analyzed separately is when all the head scratching occurs. You have fields which, by their very definition, don't move. You have waves that are the result of something moving, or you wouldn't have the wave. That something is moving much faster than the wave (or it wouldn't be a wave, unless it's a poor analogy). Then you have the conveyance (the wire) to ponder. The field is generated around the conveyance and the wave is residing in that field and both act on the wire and different metallurgy reacts differently to them. Inside that conveyance resides even more constituent components. Electrons that move so slowly that they can be eliminated as the signal carrier, but can have a contribution. A form of current (power) that's part of the signal (something has to propel it). The physical make up of the covering of the wire (dielectric) which imparts it's own negative contributions due to it's interference. With all of that in mind, I'll just trust my ears and leave pondering the imponderables to others. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
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Good point! What specifically do you think the crystals/minerals are affecting? Just curious. You’ve had a lot of experience. You must have some ideas, yes? Same question for the metallurgy.I am not a scientist... I only know that all the different electrical wires of my house coming from the principal external electrical cable from my central electrical panel are ONE connected grid, where all that is connected add some noise of his own...Minerals and crystals added to the grid decrease the noise level of the electrical grid....The minerals act like a filter, each one differently, disturbing or improving the audio signal through a filtering of the noise level of the electrical energy field... |
Slowly moving electrons represent electric current at DC. Electric current is amount of electric charge passing, per second. For the current to be 1 ampere electric charge of 1 coulomb (6.242 × 10^18 electrons) has to drift for 1 second (thru the plane). When electric field (voltage) changes (at AC), amount of "directed" free electrons in whole wire changes. As a result more or less electrons will cross given plane in time. Joules are just a measure of energy delivered to the load, equivalent to current of 1 ampere thru 1 ohm load for 1 second. This energy is still delivered on the outside. Power delivered by energy field is a product of electric field and magnetic field. Since electric field is proportional to voltage and magnetic field is proportional to current we say P = V x I (instead of measuring fields it is easier to measure what is causing them - voltage and current). As I understand it, electric charge is carried by free electrons. Since free electrons always carry the same elementary charge then increase in electric charge means more electrons. Free electrons in the wire move randomly in all directions and are kept apart by repealing forces. Application of voltage directs some of them and they slowly move along the cable (overall motion of free electrons becomes less random). Applying higher voltage directs more of them in whole wire resulting in sudden change in amount of electrons crossing given plane in time (electric current). That would imply that electrons in thin wire move faster than electrons in thick wire, at the same current. I’ve read somewhere that this is the case. It is a little weird tough, because it means that electrons will accelerate thru the narrower part, like notched wire. Again, it is how I understand it. Perhaps electricity, like a woman, exists to be loved (music) and not to be understood. |
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kijanki That would imply that electrons in thin wire move faster than electrons in thick wire, at the same current. I’ve read somewhere that this is the case. It is a little weird tough, because it means that electrons will accelerate thru the narrower part, like notched wire. >>>>That might be true, I don’t know 100% but fluid travels faster through the narrow section of a pipe than through the larger diameter section. Same thing for Helmholtz resonators and nozzle sizes. It’s the Bernoulli Principle. So maybe electron flow can be viewed as a fluid. |
I guess I just don't get it. If there is no electrical energy in the wires only outside, then what moves the charge? What causes charge flow? For electrical energy to move electrons and produce a flow of current around a circuit, work must be done, that is the electrons must move by some distance through a wire or conductor. The work done is stored in the flow of electrons as energy. Thus “Work” is the name we give to the process of energy. https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/dccircuits/electrical-energy.html |
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jea48 What causes charge flow? @djones51 The connected load. The greater the load the greater the current. Simple Ohm’ s Law I = E/R The greater the load the more energy is consumed. It’s the load that determines how much energy will flow from the source to the load. >>>>If by “load“ you mean resistance then according to your equation the smaller the load the greater the current. |
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Houston, we have a problem! 🧑🏻🚀 The load (R) is the denominator. That means the larger the value of load (R) the smaller the value of current (I). And the smaller the value of R the larger the value of I. You misspoke in your previous post when you said, ”The greater the connected load, the greater the current, and the greater the magnetic field around the two conductors of the circuit.” Problem solved! |
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Listen up, Mr. Smarty Pants, Electrical loadFigure 1. A simplified circuit diagram showing a power source and load. An electrical load is simply any component of a circuit that consumes power or energy. In a household setting, the most obvious examples of electrical loads include light bulbs and appliances. In a more general sense, any resistor or electric motor in a circuit that converts electrical energy into light, heat, or useful motion constitutes a load on the circuit. Simplified circuit diagrams usually show the load with the symbol for resistors (see Figure 1). [1] The load of a circuit is inversely proportional to current flow as bigger loads lower the current in a circuit. However, if no significant load is present in a closed circuit, a short circuit will result and potentially cause significant damage.[2] |
Bigger loads represent lower electrical resistance and/or higher power dissipation which assuming a constant voltage source means higher current. That is convention. When someone says "load up a circuit" they don't mean disconnect the circuit , i.e. increase resistance and lower current, they mean increase the conductance, i.e. lower the resistance and increase current. The load of a circuit is inversely proportional to current flow as bigger loads lower the current in a circuit. |
