The electrons that carry the charge, the ones that aren’t attached to atoms, move less than 1 mm per second, but the actual velocity can vary. However, electrons alternate direction along with the current. So their effective or net velocity is actually zero. Goose egg. 🥚
Showing 40 responses by geoffkait
Listen up, Mr. Smarty Pants, Electrical loadFigure 1. A simplified circuit diagram showing a power source and load. An electrical load is simply any component of a circuit that consumes power or energy. In a household setting, the most obvious examples of electrical loads include light bulbs and appliances. In a more general sense, any resistor or electric motor in a circuit that converts electrical energy into light, heat, or useful motion constitutes a load on the circuit. Simplified circuit diagrams usually show the load with the symbol for resistors (see Figure 1). [1] The load of a circuit is inversely proportional to current flow as bigger loads lower the current in a circuit. However, if no significant load is present in a closed circuit, a short circuit will result and potentially cause significant damage.[2] |
Houston, we have a problem! 🧑🏻🚀 The load (R) is the denominator. That means the larger the value of load (R) the smaller the value of current (I). And the smaller the value of R the larger the value of I. You misspoke in your previous post when you said, ”The greater the connected load, the greater the current, and the greater the magnetic field around the two conductors of the circuit.” Problem solved! |
jea48 What causes charge flow? @djones51 The connected load. The greater the load the greater the current. Simple Ohm’ s Law I = E/R The greater the load the more energy is consumed. It’s the load that determines how much energy will flow from the source to the load. >>>>If by “load“ you mean resistance then according to your equation the smaller the load the greater the current. |
kijanki That would imply that electrons in thin wire move faster than electrons in thick wire, at the same current. I’ve read somewhere that this is the case. It is a little weird tough, because it means that electrons will accelerate thru the narrower part, like notched wire. >>>>That might be true, I don’t know 100% but fluid travels faster through the narrow section of a pipe than through the larger diameter section. Same thing for Helmholtz resonators and nozzle sizes. It’s the Bernoulli Principle. So maybe electron flow can be viewed as a fluid. |
Unfortunately, gentle readers, we are no closer to the answer than when we started. Perhaps it really wasn’t a simple question after all. None of the evidence presented by anyone, including supposed experts, explains why the conductor influences the sound. We know that silver is more conductive than copper but often copper sounds better. It all depends. We also presume that oxygen-free copper and long crystal copper And high purity copper and silver generally sounds better than ordinary lamp cord, no? And that all cables sound better in one direction vs the other direction. This is not some new tangled theory, folks. And I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Something must be traveling inside the conductor, gentle readers. But what? 😳 Current? Then how can current be affected by vibration or the physical asymmetry of the Wire? Capish? |
Let me tell you about leaning. Most people, not everyone, has forgotten what they were taught in school a very Long time ago. And most of what you’re taught you actually never have to use on the job anyway. So you forget it super-fast. In the end, unless you have an overriding reason to learn some new body of knowledge you’re pretty much stuck with, how can I say it, nothing! Knowledge is defined as what’s left after you subtract everything you forget. 😳 |
djones51 No. It’s old stuff. The reasons can be found in a marketing 101 course. The more I read about "electricity" the more satisfied i am with my basic cables. Yeah, sure. You my friend are what we call around these parts a pseudo skeptic. No offense intended. 😬 |
jea48 cakids said: The actual transfer mechanism is a transfer of electrical charge within the wire. This is called electrical current. My response: Which creates a magnetic field around the wire, ( part of an electromagnetic wave). Final product? An electromagnetic wave. Signal energy travels, (near the speed of light in a vacuum) in the space (through the dielectric) between the two wires in the form of an electromagnetic wave. The signal energy travels in one direction from the source to the load. >>>>However, if the current is alternating - as it is for virtually all audio cables and power cords and fuses - wouldn’t the electromagnetic wave also be traveling in both directions? 🔛 For speaker cables, current travels to the speaker 🔚 on one wire whilst it travels toward the amplifier 🔜 on the other wire and vice versa. That’s why the electrons reverse direction in each wire during this operation. Also, if it’s true that current travels inside the conductor does that mean it’s the current that is somehow affected by external vibration, RFI and physical asymmetries of the wire itself (directionality)? Finally one wonders why AudioQuest goes out of their way to highly polish the surface of their solid core wire. It that for the benefit of the energy traveling outside the conductor or some other reason? AudioQuest must have a reason, it seems like a lot of trouble for no reason. |
OK, Mr. Smarty Pants, why does the quality of the conductor make any difference? Operators are standing by. Are we now to consider wire directionality a dead donkey? And what about skin effect? Another dead donk, I suppose? Furthermore, if the EM wave travels in the space between the wires it would be traveling in air, so it’s velocity would be nearly 100% the velocity of light in a vacuum, as I already said. |
jea48 jea48 @geoffkait Thanks to kijanki’s explanation we know how the dielectric can have an affect on the signal. >>>>>I’m fairly certain everybody already knew that. But thanks just the same. Besides, it’s actually a little bit irrelevant, don’t you think? That’s one of those “the sky is blue“ type comments. So, going back to the fuse example, come up with any idea? It’s even got a dielectric! 🤗 |
It was only a matter of time before somebody name-dropped “Maxwell’s equations” to support his argument. Just as predicted yesterday. Beautiful! It was bound to happen sooner or later. Don’t you see 👀 the wave is not the energy? Hel-loo! That’s why it matters what the conductor is made of, no? If the signal was outside it who would care what the conductor is made of? Why aren’t you still scratching your head? 🤔 The Characteristics of the signal determine the characteristics of the energy, no? The E and M fields don’t just pop up by themselves. |
jea48 @geoffkait Now you are changing the subject. Subject:
Next you will be changing the subject to fuse directionality. >>>>>I didn’t change the subject. The simple case of a fuse is a good opportunity or someone to explain the electric signal and how it’s affected by the wire’s physical properties. You can not divorce the cable from the conductor. The fuse is representative of other wires in the audio system. If you feel more comfortable you can use power cord instead of fuse. Pick anything you want. You be the decider. Why dismiss directionality so harshly? Does it make you nervous? All wires are directional. Agree/disagree? |
jea48 @geoffkait Part of the OP’s question: and what exactly is the medium it travels through in a cable??The signal energy travels in the space between the wires. Not in the wires. More precisely through the dielectric insulation covering the wires. >>>>>The signal energy is not the signal. That’s why the conductor’s physical properties affect the sound. The energy is the E and M fields. The signal is the electromagnetic wave. I thought we already settled that. |
jea48 djones51@ djones51 If true, kijanki, almarg, herman, Ralph Morrison, and countless other professionals are wrong. >>>>>I can live with that. Even almarg agrees the signal is an electromagnetic wave that travels at near lightspeed. The E and M fields are not waves. They’re fields. Besides, it’s customary for professionals to not always agree. |
The E and M fields that are the Poynting vectors are just that - fields. Electric field and magnetic field. Not to be confused with electromagnetic waves. Fields are stationary. EM Waves travel at near lightspeed in a medium. So, if I’m not mistaken and I don’t think I am, that means the EM wave travels INSIDE the conductor. The E and M fields lie outside the conductor. They are stationary all along the length of the cable or wire. That explains why the type of metal, the purity of the metal and the physical non-symmetries of the metal influence the sound. |
So, you guys are saying the energy is the signal? What is it that travels down the near lightspeed? Current? the EM wave? Surely not the Poynting vectors, yes? Something must be traveling down the inside of the conductor, otherwise the type of metal, gauge and purity of the conductor wouldn’t matter, yes? |
Poynting vectors apply to any conductor where there is an EM wave, as in any cable or power cord. No? I don’t particularly care about Poynting vectors as I don’t think they completely explain the audio signal in wire or “directionality“ or how the audio signal is affected by vibration, among other debatable audiophile topics. I suspect Poynting vectors are more useful to skeptics. |
Huh? Then maybe you can tell me if this is where all those guys get their info. An excerpt from Wikipedia, Coaxial cable[edit]Poynting vector in a coaxial cable, shown in red. For example, the Poynting vector within the dielectricinsulator of a coaxial cableis nearly parallel to the wire axis (assuming no fields outside the cable and a wavelength longer than the diameter of the cable, including DC). Electrical energy delivered to the load is flowing entirely through the dielectric between the conductors. Very little energy flows in the conductors themselves, since the electric field strength is nearly zero. The energy flowing in the conductors flows radially into the conductors and accounts for energy lost to resistive heating of the conductor. No energy flows outside the cable, either, since there the magnetic fields of inner and outer conductors cancel to zero. |
The signal is not the Poynting vectors. The direction of the Poynting vectors are not even in the direction of the current. You know what a vector is, right? We’ve already covered all that. Come on, guys. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ Stop trying to cherry pick 🍒 Wikipedia. Photons have no problem traveling through solid material like say, glass and water. That’s pretty obvious. Especially for high energy photons. |
Getting back to the dodgy subject of does the signal travel inside the conductor or outside the conductor, the speed of the signal in a copper conductor is measured to be some high fraction of the velocity of light in a vacuum, let’s say it’s 85% of c for the sake of argument. But if the signal were mostly traveling OUTSIDE the conductor - in air - as some have argued, wouldn’t the speed of the signal be a lot closer to the speed of light in a vacuum? Or about 99.9% of c, not 85%. |
Oh, you mean like this? 😃 djones51 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. |
sniff The forces themselves remain occult qualities. If our physical and mathematical descriptions were equal to the phenomena they describe, then the real meaning of existence could ultimately be expressed in a formula—as Douglas Adams parodies this point, the meaning of life might be “42”! So: what are the phenomena Millercarbon so succinctly describes? Ah, there’s the rub! There are many “answers,” but none of them are definitive. And this fact is itself instructive. The “reality” we presume to “understand” in physics is, in itself, necessarily beyond our grasp. To take Shakespeare out of context, there is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamed of in your philosophy—or science. And so, there remains room for speculation, mystery, and the many emotive features we, as audiophiles, are so thrilled by that we’re willing to part with large sums of money to achieve it. >>>>>English major, right? |
mapmanIt’s an electromagnetic field. Read all about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_field >>>>D- And people say I enjoy shooting fish in a barrel. |