…. And there is always that synergy thing….
Silver v Copper wire phono cable
Getting ready to order new tonearm, have option for either copper or silver continuous phono cable from cartridge to preamp. without the opportunity to compare personally, I would like to hear how others would chose....my system is shown on this site...thank you
J
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@jw944ts Any thoughts to share on your choice of wire ? I ask because I`m looking to have my Rega P10 tonearm rewired. The Audio Note silver wire with the AN silver tags looks like a good choice, but I`m still researching. |
@poorguy , 1.5 meter. |
@rauliruegas - my post was not commenting on any specific cable. It was meant to point out there there are cable design complexities to be considered other than simply the type of metal used in the conductor My apologies if it appeared otherwise My mention of the Cardas Silver cable was not meant to contradict the opinions that others had posted, just my own preference for a cable that uses a silver conductor Regards - Steve |
Dear @williewonka : Till you test the AN silver cable you will know for sure what fogman is talking about. Your Cardas is not at the same quality level performance than the AN. You only have to test to confirm my statements.
R. |
@jw944ts - cable selection is far more complex than Silver vs. copper and it seems that cable geometry and insulation type are seldom mentioned. However, as pointed out by others, these two design elements of a cable are most often responsible for the negative comments (e.g. harsh sounding) that arise when people listen to Silver cables. This is because they account for much of the distortion that occurs within the cable itself - even at the very low voltage levels of a phono cable But I hasten to add, I am not disputing the claims that a specific Silver Cable did not sound as nice as a Copper Cable, but the selection of the right cable is far more complex than simply its metallurgy. So, how can a person make a sound choice?
Companies like Zavfino, In-Akustik, Nordost, Cardas (among others) are very aware of the impact that metal, Insulation type and cable geometry has and go to great lengths to mitigate noise/distortion by combining them effectively. So, for the "average consumer". I would recommend looking into offerings from those companies (and some of the other in the above posts) and consider their cable design, much more that simply comparing the metallurgy BTW - I have the Cardas Silver one piece harness and am extremely happy. Regards - Steve |
@frogman I am surprised you could be bothered with the experiment. I am moving house and have been clearing out old gear. I have a Denon 103D purchased new hardly used. I was going to move it on but thought I should check it was all ok before selling. I got a hell of a shock as to how good it sounded. Too good to sell. I'm still listening to it 3 weeks later. I think we forget how far our systems evolve over time when we are pushing the envelope. |
Merry Christmas to all! A follow up with impressions based on a recent experience and in the context of my system: Shortly after my previous post here one of the cartridge clips broke on the AudioNote silver wire loom that I use on the Eminent Technolgy ET2 tangential tracking air bearing tonearm and that runs in one continuous run from cartridge clips to RCA input jacks on my EAR tube preamp; all sitting on a VPI TNT6 (Super Platter, SDS). The cartridge currently installed is my most recent acquisition, a NOS Acutex M320 III STR. I mentioned previously that I have used and still own two other wire looms constructed each with Discovery and Cardas; both copper. I installed the Discovery which I have always preferred to the Cardas while I waited for time to replace the clip on the AN. I figured it would be an opportunity to revisit the Discovery and confirm, or not, why I have always felt that the AN is clearly superior to the other two. It is not necessarily a comment on the superiority of silver over copper in every situation. To put my comments in better context I should address Dover’s very valid comment re the fact that the answer to one of the issues previously discussed “depends on one’s definition of superior sound”. For me, superior sound is sound that ON BALANCE sounds closer to the sound that ON BALANCE I hear from live music. I don’t want to get into the weeds re the common claim that there are too many variables in recorded sound to make a valid determination. I believe that it is certainly possible. There are enough sonic cues in specific sonic areas that are unique to the sound of live that make it possible; particularly in the way that these affect perceived performance values and details. I spent about three weeks with the Discovery and reinstalled the fixed AN loom just two days ago. Installing the Discovery loom brought back memories. The overall sound is good with the Discovery, but in comparison to the sound that I have been enjoying with the AN, the sound with the Discovery has some noticeable grain through the midrange and there is a reduction in resolution. The bass is a bit wooly and I immediately missed the AN’s great pitch definition. Bass lines with the AN are tuneful; one can clearly hear the pitch of each note whereas the Discovery provided the low frequency energy, but with vague pitch and lack of air. Soundstage size is similar, but the Discovery projects larger individual images compared to the AN’s smaller and more realistic individual images; I suspect, the result of the AN’s superior definition and images that are less diffuse around the edges. In the area of natural tonal colors it is not close; the Discovery sounds a little bleached out compared to the AN’s clearly more natural rendering of tonal colors. Frankly, in spite of the fact that I have always considered the AN to be the more refined and clearly superior tonearm wire, I was surprised at just how much better the AN is IN MY SYSTEM this time around. A PITA to work with given how thin it is, but the AN is a killer tonearm wire.
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The best answer I can give you is possibly. The second best answer I can give you is it depends ( upon your definition of "a better conductor" "properly implemented" and "superior sound"). I know of at least one manufacturer who uses copper in preference to silver on ground signals because they believe the "dirty cable" actually sinks noise & rf better than pure silver on the ground leg. I pose a question for you to think about regarding speaker cables - In a single ended amplifier the +ve signal is separated from the incoming mains by a transformer and the amplifiers power supply, whereas the -ve signal is connected directly to the power pole on the street. Why would a speaker cable be constructed symmetrically when the +ve and -ve rails are performing different functions.
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Great point, Dover and I don’t forget it at all. As with many other things in this hobby, given so many variables sometimes the most one can hope is to extrapolate and connect some dots so as to, as I said before, get a better understanding of what is going on. For instance, in my system the Cardas and the Discovery sound, overall, very different in specific ways; proving your point. Most obvious is the larger and opulent soundstage of the Discovery compared to the more compact and dense Cardas. However, is it a coincidence that both the Cardas and the Discovery, both copper, share some properties in overall tonal qualities? Qualities not heard with the AN. And, that compared to the AN both exhibit some grain? Or, that I hear a similar sense of clarity and lucidity when I switched from copper speaker cables to the Siltech (pure silver) that I use? One starts to see (hear) a pattern. Silver is, verifiably, a better conductor than copper. Wires conduct. With all the concern over other minutia of differences in many other areas of system building and insistence that those minutia make audible differences (many do, IMO), is it not to be expected that the better conductor, WHEN PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED would offer superior sound, everything else being equal? |
@terry9 , I think maybe dover has a prostate problem:) |
@dover, what I said is exactly true. I did not say which one was more or less ductile and malleable and in the context of wire the distinction is close to being meaningless. It is extremely easy to draw both metals into wire. In actuality either metal can be more or less ductile depending on the alloy. As pure metals silver is more ductile than copper but if you look at a chart of metals both are near the top. The only one better than silver is gold. I think copper is fourth on the list. Try making wire out of titanium. |
Dont forget that the 3 cables you compared AN, Cardas & Discovery are vastly different constructions - AN is a 3 wires litz per conductor, Cardas is a multistrand variable size litz, Discovery multistrand uniform size ( not sure if true litz ).And of course the insulation is different on all three cables. FYI - a few years ago I put some Furutech La Source 101 headshell leads onto my FR64S. This was one of the biggest surprises I’ve had in many years. I have been in top end audio for 30 years sold multitudes of top arms and rewired plenty. I note that their cartridge pins are rhodium on phosphor bronze - they are exceedingly tight and I would check out if you can source some of those pins. I agree if you are using the AN wire the AN pins look very good. I like the crimped construction.
So what - I have a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D and Ikeda Kiwame both of which have copper coils and piss all over the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum for transparency and speed.
Nonsense - copper is far less maleable and harder than silver given the same size etc. |
@pindac , interesting. I have not analyzed that from a mechanical perspective. Both metals are very ductile and malleable. Wires of similar gauge will be just as flexible. Both will strain harden but not to a degree that would cause failure in this application. Both would break just as easily. I would think strength and flexibility would depend more on the material used for insulation. As an example Etymotic ear phones have Kevlar strands in the insulation. You can hang yourself with them before they will break. I managed to do it anyway, a long story. Silver is a slightly better conductor but in reality this means very little. Both will tarnish. In Short, the best tonearm wire should be strong and very flexible. This depends more on gauge and the mechanical properties of the insulation. The highest gauge you can get away with maintaining reasonable strength is the way to go. As for which conductor to use? I would be willing to bet $1000 that if I did blind AB testing on a group of audiophiles none of them would be reliably able to identify the conductor. It is a shame that a group of us do not get together to perform tests like these. They do not get done because the media does not want to piss of 90% of it's advertisers and a wealthy audiophile has not come along to underwrite a group such as this. As if it means anything, I had a choice of wire with Schroder tonearm. I chose copper. I thought the silver was a waste of money. @bpoletti , if any of us can hear a 3mB difference in volume I am a monkey's uncle. There is absolutely no frequency response change between silver and copper wire in the audio band. So, I am going to have to agree with lewm on this one. |
I make cables for my own pleasure and to make money. I have been working with exotic and precious materials since 1981. I use silver cabling throughout my personal system. You can see my system at Audio Union. The cables are worth more than the rest of my system. Silver will always out perform copper given all other things are equal. |
@frogman A good Post and one that is off interest to myself, especially as I have already got the AN Silver Female Tags on a short list to use with a wire I am looking to produce along with a Pure Copper Female Tag. The trial will include Wires that are used already and selected for continued use and the Wires that I am attempting to produce. It has been agreed that the Wires used in the Trials are to be mounted externally on the Wand and be a continuous Length from Female Tag Connector to RCA. Your report on your experiences and the differences discovered are hopefully going to be reciprocated in a similar form, when the trials I am trying to encourage are undertaken. Your experience has highlighted another wire to be considered and the use of the AN Silver Wire is also one I would like to experience during these trials, even though I know the Tonearm Builders who I working with are with a enthusiasm for pure copper.
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Dover makes a great point re cable loom construction. I mentioned in my previous post that I have rewired my ET2 three times. With the exception of the VDH silver plated litz, which the tonearm was internally wired with in stock form, the construction of all three subsequent wire looms (Cardas, Discovery, AudioNote) is absolutely identical. Unlike the VDH, these three wire looms were run externally and in one continuous run (no break) from cartridge clips to the phono preamp (RCA); unshielded until just beyond the point where the free movement of the tangential air bearing would be impeded. Except for the different wire, the length and construction of the three looms are absolutely identical. As I mentioned in my previous post, for me, the AudioNote silver is clearly superior to the two copper wires. It is true that the two copper wires, Discovery in particular, are less flexible than the AN and this fact alone does undoubtedly affect performance. Out of curiosity, as a rough experiment and certainly not definitive, I experimented DECREASING the amount of flexibility of the AN loom so as to try and mimic the reduced amount of freedom of movement that the bearing “sees” with the Cardas and Discovery looms. This can be achieved easily with very small changes to the way one dresses the wire. I hoped to then be able to get a better sense of what were the characteristics of the conducting materials (silver/copper) without the added influence of more or less freedom of movement of the wire. There were clearly some subtle negative audible effects of reducing the wire’s flexibility. Interestingly, the most obvious was a perceived reduction in soundstage width and depth; akin to what is heard with the Cardas. However, the spectral balance remained essentially the same as well as the general superiority of the AudioNote silver in the areas of clarity and overall refinement. For kicks, or when I need an audio “fix” (boredom? 😊), I will occasionally reinstall the Cardas or Discovery wire looms. The results are always the same. After having lived with the AN, I could not go back to either on a long term basis.
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I’ll side with Lew here and until I see verifiable documentation of this I call BS.
I do not ever recall seeing this and until documentation is provided of the pedigree of the A/B test I’ll again call BS. This quote from the Britannica.com sheds some light on the absurdity of the claim.
I believe this refers to overall level change for an untrained listener and I do believe that an experienced listener can detect smaller changes and also believe that changing a small range of frequencies will allow smaller than 1dB changes to be heard by a larger segment of the population. For any change 333 times smaller, I’d be surprised if there were one person on the planet that could do this. dave |
This whole conversation of silver versus copper is nebulous. Far more important is the actual phono loom construction - for example, is the cable twisted pair plus shield ( my preferred construct ), coaxial, balanced, etc The electrical parameters which are determined by the loom construct and volume of wire will factor in to the performance - and will be dependent on the phono cartridge and phono stage. For that reason any comparision between silver and copper are irrelevant unless the cable loom construction is identical in the comparision. For example for MC cartridges I use MIT, but the cable is too capacitive for MM & MI cartridges. So for MM/MI cartridges I use an Audioplan silver cable ( that was never released due to cost ). As far as internal arm wire anything with teflon insulation is too stiff. My preferences are Audio Note silver, Kondo silver, based on sound quality ( coherency & transparency ) and flexibility. There are other solutions not commonly used - for example the Naim Aro internal wire is shotgunned ( doubled up ) within the arm tube but retaining single wire format through the critical unipivot bearing. This is an example of a manufacturer wanting to achieve both flexibility through the critical bearings as well as an electrical model that is optimised. The mechanical and electrical properties of the tonearm wire loom in toto are in the ways outlined above arguably more important than whether it is copper silver etc. In fact nobody has talked about platinum, gold or bronze or ribbon vs round vs rectangular cross sections all of which are available as options.
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The Intention to use a Tonearm Internal Wand Wire that is a continuous length from the Cartridge Lead Out Pins through to the Phonostage RCA Connectors will offer the best method that assures that the Signal being delivered, is with the least interfaces on the signal route. There are other considerations worth looking into as well which are outlined below. As an additional thought on this AN do a high purity Silver Female Tag Connector and Zavfino supply a Pure Copper, I did not discover a OCC as a Standalone Part that can be purchased, even though there are XLR connectors that have OCC as Male/Female Inserts. I have not been able to carry out a A/B Comparison on Internal Wand Wires, additionally I have not met anybody who has carried out such a practice either. In my conversations with friends who are recognised as adept Tonearm Builder and Modifiers, some of these individuals are only focused on one thing of importance when it comes to an Internal Wand Wire. Which is what I will assume is where their experiences are quite important on how they assess the wire in use. The Ideal described to myself, is that a Wire inclusive of Insulation is best, if it has a Outside Diameter of 0.3mm and the Wire ’must’ be extremely soft and supple. Building Up Wires within a Wand of more than 0.3mm, especially a Wire that has an increase in stiffness will impact on the Tonearm Performance as the freedom of movement will be interfered with, and in certain cases with certain wires, this can be very noticeable for the worsening of the Tonearms performance. If a wire of a particular design philosophy can be found to meet these parameters this is a Wire that will have been trialled. Interestingly Copper is the preferred arm wire, even when used with Silver Cartridge Coil Wire, and there are commonly seen offered Branded Tonearm Wires that has been deselected as Wand Wire due to the impact discovered on the Tonearm Performance. With the above in mind about Wand Wire, my own endeavours, attempting to achieve a DIY version of a Internal Wire as previously described, is to be met with assessment from friends with an experienced background on such materials and the application of the material. To get the ideal finish on the Wire will be quite a bit of R&D and failures. When it comes to Copper vs Silver I can offer this as a description based on personal experiences. I used OCC Silver Wire in 5 Pin DIN Interconnect for about two years as replacement for OCC Copper. A PC Triple C Copper 5 Pin DIN Interconnect has now replaced the OCC Silver for approx’ 1 year and I do a A/B comparisons every few months and will not return to the Silver OCC Cable. I have also loaned out the PC Triple C and to date those that have heard it in their Systems have bought Cables with the same Wires. As said SAEC are looking like the only company offering this Wire as a Internal Wand Wire, but it can be purchased as Tag Wire. I attended in the not too distant past a 5 PIN DIN Cable Bake Off, a selection of Cable with a Gross of approx’ Value of £3500 was in the Line Up, all attendees did not select Silver Wire Cables, Copper was placed over these Cables and the organiser of the Cable Bake Off chose a Copper Cable for their system. With the same group of attendees at a Speaker Cable Bake Off, where approx’ £5000 of Copper and Silver Cables were in a Line Up, the Group were much more mixed in their assessments and two attendees Home Auditioned Silver Cables and purchased these quite expensive Silver Cables as a result of the influence the Bake Off had on them. I have heard these Cable selections in each system and agree with the choices made. Systems develop and that brings Interface changes, a Cable is a umbilical at a Interface and one great cable choice from the past, might prove to need changing as the items attached to the umbilical are changed, and that could quite simply be a swap out of a Cartridge.
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Oh, Raul.... Once again your evaluation and interpretation fails. Silver ADDS a 5khz to 8khz rise, even though slight, that creates a hardness / harshness to the signal. It is pollution and distortion of the signal. And I suggest that your system is seriously deficient as must be your hearing if you fail to detect such irritation. Recall that it is possible in an A / B test to detect as little as 3mB difference is signals as demonstrated in blind tests. My room and electronics are reference grade. It's a shame you only compare your system to better systems and don't realize what you're missing. But there is the other possibility is that YOUR system is deficient or weak in the 5khz to 8khz because it was mis-voiced using a lack of quality components during design and manufacturing. The distortion from silver would help artificially compensate for your lack of quality, but would not end up reproducing the signal as recorded. The silver would only act as a fixed frequency equalizer.
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Dear @frogman : The VDH that came or comes with today SME tonearms is not a standalone wire for sale.
That internal tonearm wire is way even more fragile than the AN one and I know by first hand experience when I " opened " the SME IC cable and I had to let it that way because I did not fixed again just can’t do it. I have not the rigth tools to do it that are like the ones of cartridge retippers.
In the other side I think that @bpoletti must be kidding about silver wire and if not then that could means that he has not the quality level room/system to be aware of the differences silver always made in a good system.
R. |
@frogman welcome to the forum of opinions, bias, varied taste, measurements/no measurements...play at your own risk! |
**** Do not let the distortions of silver enter your system. **** Acknowledging that the choice will be influenced at least to some degree by the aggregate of the spectral signatures of all the other “components” in an audio system, how does using silver, a metal that has higher conductivity and lower resistivity than copper necessarily mean that it will introduce more distortion than copper? |
If the latest technology for Wire Production is to be considered, the OCC replacement Copper PC Triple Wire will be a Wire to consider. The Cat is Out of the Bag and there is a steady growing movement toward this Wire at a commercial and enthusiast user level. As far as I know SAEC are the only company at present offering this wire used as an internal Wand Wire, and there is also the possibility this wire used is PC Triple C / EX, which has a forged High Purity Silver Sheath on the Copper Core. The EX is the same wire I am working with, the goal is to separate the strands and produce a Insulated Internal Wand Wire, the Sheathing Method for adding the Insulation, is being worked out between a few friends at present, using much cheaper strands of wire. The ease of the process, ensuring the Wire is not stressed and the Overall Wire Diameter as an end product are presenting there own challenges. As for Burn In times for a Phonostage, a reverse riaa adaptor used in conjunction with a CDP will enable endless hours of Phonostage use, and save the Cartridge. If a Valve Phon' is in use, do the same method, but swap out the chosen Valves for cheaper options to preserve the life of the preferred valves. This is my preferred method and have put a few hundred hours on a New Phon' in quite short periods of time, having the music on low level and within hearing range will reveal noticeable changes to the SQ as the burn in progresses.
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Dear @jw944ts : With out doubt you must go for the copper . The ones that could tell you other thing has not the kind of room/system you own. |
Dear @frogman : The VDH you named is all you said but the VDH that today SME tonearms have is way different and really good.
I had several experiences with almost everykind of cables with Cardas and never was my cup of tea neither Discovery.
Audio Note is in a different league along Zavfino 1877.
R. |
@jw944ts , well there you go. I guess that settles that issue. Looks good there also. I wonder why the 2G and not the 3P? |
I have rewired my Eminent Technology ET2 HP linear tracking tonearm three times over the years. My least favorite of the four different wires that I have had experience with was the VDH silver clad copper litz. The other three were the Cardas (copper), the Discovery (copper) and the AudioNote silver. In comparison to the other three the silver clad copper VDH was a bit harsh and bright and obviously grainy sounding. The Cardas was smooth and on the dark side of things; as if the lights had been turned down. Imaging was stable and more compact than the others overall . Discovery was rather full sounding and with an obviously more generous soundstage, but sounded slightly grainy without harshness. My favorite, by a long shot was the AudioNote silver which is still installed. By far, the most refined sounding. Very detailed smooth sounding. Some might say a little lean compared to the Discovery, but with the best low end extension and clarity. The AudioNote is the thinnest and most flexible of the four; the Discovery the thickest and least flexible. IMO, not an insignificant consideration; the thinner and more flexible the better, if harder to work with.. Good luck with your choice.
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@mijostyn here is a link you asked for, showing Oracle Delphi MkVI with Reed 2G, on Jacques Riendeau's personal table!!
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