Is SET amplification where we should all end up? I keep reading posts where people tell of their journeys from plenty power to micro power, and how amazing SET amplification is 45 set 211 set 845 set otl, and usually, ....with the right speaker. I have yet to read of anyone who has gone the other direction from SET, to High watt beast class A amps or others. If your speakers can be driven by minimal wattage, is this the most realistic, natural sound we can achieve? versus say, 86db sensitive speakers and a 1000w amp? Is the end result solely based on speaker pairing? circuit? tubes?
I am in the process of changing my direction in my search for realistic sound, just because, and wondering if this really is the best direction to be going. From what I have been reading I think it may be.
I think he is talking about the missing fundamental effect. If the fundamental frequency is f, there will be harmonics at 2f, 3f, 4f, and so on. Even if your system can not produce the fundamental (as has been pointed out, the bass note on a piano goes as low as 27.5Hz), it can definitely produce the harmonics which is how you perceive the bass note. Your brain fills it in.
I can listen to piano on my iPod earphones which definitely don't go as low as 27.5Hz, but I can still "hear" bass notes on the piano.
There are products out there that take advantage of the missing fundamental effect by boosting the harmonics, giving the sensation of more bass.
IMO if there is a subsonic rolloff, you hear it as a diminution of bass impact. It can also be measured quite easily- square wave tilt is the measurement. Having played around with LF cutoff frequencies a lot (our amps are full power to either 1Hz or 2Hz), all I can say is its easy to hear once you know what you are looking for provided you have speakers with bandwidth into the low 20s.
I had a few well revered ss amps (Rowland, Threshold,...) and auditioned many others (Levinson, Krell,...), but when I decided to go tube, without any auditioning, just out of curiosity from what I had read, like you, it was, in hindsight, one of the most revelatory experiences of my high-end audio journey. I was a convert from the first instrument, first voice and haven't looked back. I was in shock by just how real and natural the sound was and amazed that the bass actually trumped my ss amp. You always hear about how tube amps have no bass and that couldn't have been further from the truth. The bass from the tube amp was not only deeper, with more impact, it was also more musical, dynamic, tight, and fast. That last ss amp was the Rowland Model 10. Hard to believe a 15 watt hand made, point to point wired 572 Svetlana power tube monoblock amp embarrassed a 150wpc ss amp. But it did. And you'd think it'd have to for the price. It was the ViVa Verona Monoblocks. The ViVa absolutely demolished the Rowland in every which way. I had never heard music sound quite like that. Almost magical. The sound was nothing like I had heard before from ss. Now I knew what all the gushing talk over tube gear was about. After that I played around with some others (lower priced, both high and low power) and ended up with TRON Cantata 300B mono's, having had the TRON Jubilate monos just before that. I probably would have kept the ViVa had I decided to get more efficient speakers first instead of a more powerful tube amp (I had Kharma Ceramique 2.1's). Now I have 98dB Horning Agathon Ultimate speakers. Another revelation of sound and a design, like tubes, that makes most audiophiles skin crawl - horns. Again, nothing like I've heard before. I had Maggies for years and swore I'd never have traditional box cone driver speakers. But I kept an open ear and listened to one years back. That's all it took to hear that I was missing something. The horn speaker was as dramatic a transformation for speakers as tubes were with amps. It's hard to understand how some audiophiles have such an aversion to tube gear in general, and in some cases plain prejudicial, without even hearing one. But thats' how some people are. They don't like change. Having been a ss audiophile for more years then with tubes I have to think it's just tradition, like those who think audiophiles are nuts and that there's no difference in sound with the HiFi gear, or cables,..etc. I think they're just in denial because it's so different to what they're used to. They don't want to believe what they're hearing. It's not ss so it can't be good. Speaking from my experience though, I have never heard such musical realism except at a live performance.
Back in the 'Sound Practices' day, I played with SE amps. 300B and 2A3. PP 6B4Gs too. Though pleasant sounding, I was forever trying to find a good speaker to match up with them. I tried different modern and vintage coaxials without success.
I eventually turned away from Triode SE and back into Ultralinear designs. The higher power worked better with my Altec 604 / Eminence speakers (ie - the UREI 813A). The best DIY design of mine was a SE EL156 UL with a pentode front end. Lots of power (~20Ws), fast, detailed but not clinical. This was nirvana for me.
Then I accidentally got a good deal on a Threshold S/500 amplifier. They gripped the UREI speakers better than any tube amp I have ever heard. No solid state glare or grain - and they have enough power to drive any speaker I would want.
So I sold my SE EL156 amps to a friend (where they are still churning away) and after twenty years of tube amps jumped on the solid state wagon. I'm not getting off either. Though lacking in some of the qualities that tube gear has, good solid-state also has it's own signature that appeals to me.
Having used Wilson Audio speakers for a very long time I was always told you need big SS to drive them. Used ML 33h, 33, then the ASR Emitter II. Having been intrigued by all of the SET discussion here on Agon decided to get a Wyetech Topaz which is a SET using 211 output tubes. Never gonna work I was told. I much preferred the sound of the SET to the SS in my system. In turn I sold all of my two channel SS amps. The most recent loaner to me was the Bryston SST SQ 28 monos. In my system they did not work at all and returned them after a little over a week. So in my case I am happy with my SET. But that is not to say that the SS cannot sound right.
I went from high power high current to SET. I bought a 6 Moons reviewer sample amp(that he effused immensely about) and bought the speakers he recommended to go with it (which were also reviewed by him). Now this was not salary priced equipment, but reasonably priced and I was told would take me a good distance into SET performance (by the reviewer).
Sure it did some things well. I am not so sure I would say better than my high power system, but certainly differently. The SET set-up was a faction of the price and this should be noted. What it didn't do as well was significant to me.
My EXPERIENCE and opinion was that if you don't mind just listening to a portion of the music on the recording, albeit that portion sound nice, then you may very well like SET. However, if you feel that you need the entire frequency spectrum at decent or full weight, then you may end up disappointed - as I did. I am now moving back to higher power (at least vs. SET).
Will everyone eventually end up there? No way will that ever happen. It is definately a niche type area.
All that being said, I am confident that there are $100K SET systems that expand beyond my experiences.
I have a system that includes a modded and fully tube-rolled 3-watt Moth s2A3 amp, Omega Grande 8R speakers, Von Schweikert subwoofer, tubed CDP, and all Jade wires. I also have a system that includes Mac 500-watt MC501 monoblocks, C2300 preamp, Marantz sa11s2, Montana EPS2 speakers and all Wireworld wires. I love the 2A3 system. The SS systems beats it in every parameter. Many roads to Dublin.
After years of SS amps (except for guitar amps....all tube) and just after a nice few years with a great sounding push-pull tube amp, I was absolutely floored by a little Dennis Had single ended pentode amp...just amazed at the clarity and detail, and what just seemed like musical accuracy. I'll never sell the thing, and with efficient speakers and a couple of powered subs, I'm done.
IMHO, SET are most transparent, best in texture and tone, most organic and musical. They need sensitive speakers. But in any case, the sensitive speakers are MUST for any good, musical system. SET sound quality depends a lot from parts quality: tubes, transformers, capacitors, resistors,... So a good SET can’t be cheap to built. SET are best for acoustic music: classical, jazz, vocals. If you listen electronic music, POP, rock - there are better options than SET amps. I will never go back to transistor amplifiers and low/mid sensitivity speakers. Regards, Alex.
I have a reasonably efficient speaker system (99 db/w) which I run with a variety of low-powered tube amps. Among such amps is an Audio Note Kageki, which is a 6.5 watt parallel single-ended amp running 2a3 output tubes. It is a pretty good sounding example of a SET amp, yet, I would not say it is the best amp for my system and taste. I generally prefer a pushpull 349a amp that I own that outputs 5.5 watts/channel. Both the Kageki and my 349a amp deliver an expansive and enveloping soundfield, rich pallet of harmonics and a natural presentation without edginess or overly "etched" detail. They differ a bit in the bass presentation. The 349a amp is punchier and tighter in the bass, but, that bass presentation is a bit "mechanical" sounding (a sameness regardless of source material) while the Kageki sounds more varied and natural (albeit soft sounding) in the attack of bass notes. Different strengths and weaknesses, and one is not "better" than the other.
Among the very best amps I've ever heard are a pushpull amp running the 252 tube and a one-of-a-kind output transformerless amp. Both made my Kageki sound anemic in direct comparison. While I really like several SET designs, I hardly think that, as a class, they outshine other tube designs.
Interesting thread, got resurrected after 10 years. If Ralph still follows it I would be interested on knowing which amps he was referring to in this comment
But the amps I use are designed to not generate any loudness cues to the human ear
The loudness cues to which I was referring are the higher ordered harmonics- the 5th and above. The human ear uses these harmonics to sense sound pressure. But it also assigns a tonality to any distortion- the higher orders cause brightness and harshness even in tiny amounts, since the ear has to be keenly sensitive to them in order to gauge sound pressure over a 130dB range.
If you know these facts then that gives you a good idea of how to approach amplifier design. Since the ear is arguably more sensitive to the higher ordered harmonics than **anything** else, it follows that for electronics to sound natural that is the kind of distortion that should be minimized (BTW it is this type of distortion that characterizes most solid state designs). When this is done, you can run much higher power levels and yet the system will not sound loud as all those loudness cues aren't being generated by the stereo.
The result is to naturally turn the volume up to get a realistic sound pressure. IMO, this is at the heart of the shortcomings of SETs, since they don't make much power and these harmonics are audible at any power level over about 20% of full power (which is why so many SETs are described as 'far more dynamic than their low power would suggest- its simply distortion that the ear interprets as loudness, showing up on transients that have the most power). The result is that even at relatively low sound pressure levels they sound loud. IMO/IME it is the mark of a good system that it always sound relaxed and never sounds loud until it really is (+95dB). The only way to get around this limitation with SETs is to use really high efficiency loudspeakers, which from what I've seen over the years doesn't happen that often- so many people are not experiencing the best that SETs have to offer.
Thanks Ralph, having your MA-1's OTL's I agree that listening to higher levels without distortion it is an exceptional experience, I figured you were talking about your OTL's
My Dennis Had amp is an SEP (pentode) at from 12 to 17wpc depending on tubes used, which means with Gold Lion KT77s, my "tube du jour," I'm likely getting 10 to 12wpc. This drives my 99db Heresy IIIs to as loud as I need to hear 'em with plenty of headroom left. I cheat with a couple of REL subs, but man...a great sounding thing.
I think a low sensitive speakers
fashion
is a huge delusion of Hi-End market .
I totally agree!
This drives my 99db Heresy IIIs to as loud as I need to hear 'em with plenty of headroom left.
Its this phenomena of *sounding* loud that's what I'm talking about. My speakers are 1 dB less and my room is not particularly large; I find 30 watts to be a nice minimum power. This means the amp is loafing all the time. When an SET or SEP is making over 20% of full power, the distortion is causing it to sound 'loud'. A sound pressure level meter sorts things out pretty quickly. They are available as an app for smartphones.
Its this phenomena of *sounding* loud that's what I'm talking about.
Agreed I have compared a PSET with KT150's 16 Watts or so vs the OTL's and it distorts after 70% or so, that impression of playing loud to me was plain distortion. My speakers are 96 db not 100 db so I think it could get better but don't know how much more.
I can't tell if my amp is loafing, and I've used the iPhone meter for years out of curiosity and to test relative channel levels...no idea how many watts my amp is actually using as I don't own whatever gear would tell me that, but it sure seems clean even at uncomfortable levels.
Most of audiophiles have zero experience, with high sensitive speakers. The reason is - all high sensitive speakers (excluding Klipsch) are not mainstream today. When I first time (17 year ago) listened Lowther in Oris 150 horns with 2a3 SET monoblocks, I felt like a middle-age knight who saw a tank :-) I understood that anything I heard before where toys (including Montana, Wilson Audio, Martin Logan, Dynaudio, Spendor, Focal,....).
Not sure how you define "mainstream" - "all high sensitive speakers (excluding Klipsh) are not mainstream today." While they may be in the minority, there are many manufactures of high sensitivity speakers.
It is interesting that one can box yourself in with a lower watt tube amp, and deny yourself the vast multitudes (and clear large margin majority) of 83 to 90db efficient speakers...I check efficiency in every review and simply say meh...it will be a while before I lose interest in efficiency, and I'm happy with the sound of my massive 12 watts into horns...the dynamics are there, the clarity is there, the musical "correctness" is there, and I'm there.
I learned the lesson of speaker efficiency a long time ago. When I hear systems that have low efficiency speakers and a high power amp, they sound 'little' compared to what I'm used to...
If you like what you hear with an SET based total system, and can afford it, then that's the way to go. However, if low efficiency speakers make a come-back and you like their sound better than your SET based sound, you'l need some new electronics.
Is SET amplification where we should all end up? I keep reading posts where people tell of their journeys from plenty power to micro power, and how amazing SET amplification is 45 set 211 set 845 set otl, and usually, ....with the right speaker. I have yet to read of anyone who has gone the other direction from SET, to High watt beast class A amps or others. If your speakers can be driven by minimal wattage, is this the most realistic, natural sound we can achieve? versus say, 86db sensitive speakers and a 1000w amp? Is the end result solely based on speaker pairing? circuit? tubes?
I am in the process of changing my direction in my search for realistic sound, just because, and wondering if this really is the best direction to be going. From what I have been reading I think it may be.
What do we get with SET? What do we give up?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Finally after some 40 years in audio, I finally got to hear a SET amplifier in my WBer assist speaker system. Yes, SET is the ultimate amplifier. Why? Because high sensitivity WBers are the ultimate speaker experience. (excluding big horn systems of course, obviously...)
With the DEfy7 and a friends own design of a EL34 amplifier, both offer too much power to allow the linestage frredom in the vol gain pot. Its just too much current. The tech geek also has his own 250 SET tube amplifier he designs, and finally got a chance to power it up with my new WBer speakers. Now I a, able to use the vol gain on the DPL at much higher gain with no stress on the speakers.
The WBers are 92 sens, the W18's are 87. The 250 tube SET is 6+6 watts. And the sound is like the Defy/kt88 and EL34, but with superior gain on the DPL , now the wonders of the gorgeous inner design of the Jadis DPL can kick in its magic, which was basically locked up with the 2 big PP amplifiers.
For me, the ultimate sound system, starts and ends with SET + WBers. (or big horns if you can afford)
No doubt about it, PP amplifiers are always trumped by SETs.
You know,,,I 'm wondering,,,the 6 watt SET really drives the low efficiency Seas W18's with massive punch in the bass.,,, The Defy can do the same punch on the W18's, but at a much lower gain on linestage. With the vol gain at 9 oclock on the DPL with the Defy/ and EL34, small listening rm, near field,, thats quite enough SPL.. Now with the SET, I can go 12 oclock on the Jadis DPL linestage showing no stress on the speakers and the music is a ~~~bit more~~(are not we all after the nunaces and gains) , detailed, more alive, more colors/deeper soundstage.
IOW the Jadis Linestage now is unlock and can add its charms along with the gorgeous 250 tubes magic.
EL34/KT88 have their tube charms, but seem to be more of a POWER tube, vs a SET's ability to deepen the soundstage, and so i am hearing nuances missed with PP tubes.
IMHO SETs are the best musical amplification. Have not heard a 300B tube, but know from others testimony, its not their cup of tea. Trying right now to find a 845 amplifier, that is within my limited budget. Have my eye on one, , waiting for the lister to respond.
SET + High Effiiciency, match made in heaven.
~~~~OP 2009, and here i am in 2021 getting Mike's drift.
philjolet2,302 posts11-01-2009 7:49amI like SET but you will never resolve this with a post here on Agon because too many disagree. You can not get people to agree on SS or tube as the best let alone SET t
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh for sure. The 90%+ Audiogon members are sold out on the xover low efficiency types. SETs really have a hard time making Wilson's, Vandersteens, Magnepans, come to life.
So SET's have to take a back seat for the big PP amps. My Defy7 100 watts. But if I can only employ 10 of these watts before the SPL is overalod in my small lsitening room, near field,, what's the point have all these wtts, i will never use?? My New WBers really work best with SET amplification...Or maybe a low powered EL34 with triode/linear switch, like a Cayin I had, but sold off, as **being under powered***. The cayin was 25 watts/35watts. Might have worked better than this big EL34 and Defy. But again, a Low powered el34, tube will not present music as a good SET tube will.
Big SS/PP amps rule around Audiogon. Note how so few SETs are up for sale. Once folks add a SET, its a keeper for life.
something. The horn speaker was as dramatic a transformation for speakers as tubes were with amps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Big high tech horns Rule,
Matched with a high tech SET,, WOW factor off the charts. One day I will take a look at horns, , I am quite content with my new WBer speaker system for now.
It's hard to understand how some audiophiles have such an aversion to tube gear in general, and in some cases plain prejudicial, without even hearing one. But thats' how some people are. They don't like change
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That attitude against tubes, back then, has chnaged over the past decade, Seems more posts are about tube amplification. So thats a good thing.. But there remains the aversion, the neglect, of showing any interest whatsoever in WBer speakers, as single point source or combined in a multi WBer speaker system.
Posible in another 10 years this misunderstanding and disdain, concerning WBers(as ultimate midrange experience)) here too, we may begin to pale as more folks jump on the WBer speaker train.
SET. However, if you feel that you need the entire frequency spectrum at decent or full weight, then you may end up disappointed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You might be refereing to the 300B tube amplification.
My tech says avoid 300B. Cayin has a massive incedible 845 witha 300B power tube as driver. I am not sure this is the right mix,. Will the added 300B tube make the sounda bit too tuby/fluffy.
The 250 tube SET I have borrowed from my techs hand made collection, has slam, massive bass. On the wide band8 92db + Seas W18E001(duals per channel)
Don't underestime a SET;'s bass SLAM potential. SET's can rock matched with the right speakers.
wolf_garcia5,865 posts05-28-2020 1:44pmIt is interesting that one can box yourself in with a lower watt tube amp, and deny yourself the vast multitudes (and clear large margin majority) of 83 to 90db efficient speakers...I check efficiency in every review and simply say meh...it will be a while before I lose interest in efficiency, and I'm happy with the sound of my massive 12 watts into horns...the dynamics are there, the clarity is there, the musical "correctness" is there, and I'm there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The vast majority of speakers are low efficient, unefficient, poor efficient. Like you the very 1st thing i ck is ~~~~~db sens level~~~~ I boughta single brand new Seas New Flagship tweeter ~~Crescendo~~ Seas on their site claijms 92db So I bought it on the cheap/winning bid. . Not even close to 92db. More like 84db IF THAT!!!!!!!!! at 84db, you will need ~~~Jadis's JA800~~~ to force it to sing..
WBers at 92db (true db sens) and on up, , now here is where a SET amplifer gets happy.
My friends 6w+6w 250 tube had made amplifier, packs a punch in bass. The Seas W18E001's with 87 db, ROCKKK on Sophie Milman's recordings.
I've got all kinds of nice mods in my Jadis Line stage and Jadis DAC, that now finally can take on presence Mundorf Caps, Takman resistors. New high tech Class A JFET's opamps in the DAC, 4 duals. Now these tweaks can voice via higher gain on the DPL linestage vol pot. Vs the Defy's over load 12 KT88's power, where gain could not be more than say 9 oclock with spilling over massive SPL strain on the speakers
SETs allow the mods to come alive with usage of more gain on vol. + the WBers are more happy with SET power vs PP power. Its a win-win-win
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So you think the energy sucking xover types are falling in popularity?? Look at the speaker page. Your average low efficiency speakers get top attention. High sens = WBers?pointSource/Full Range single driver + all Horns in one camp
vs Seas/ScanSpeaks, / all A-Z xover style speakers /Stas/panels..in the other camp= Low efficient, low db sensitivity.
Not necessarily. I own two low-powered pushpull amps (both custom builds) and a very good SET amp (Audio Note Kageki), and even limiting the analysis to my personal taste, my particular room and my system, I cannot say that any particular amp is unequivocally the best. I have a relatively SET friendly speaker system (99 db/w efficient) which is also necessary because my pushpull amps are also very low in output. My overall favorite amp is the pushpull 349 amp (5.5 watts/channel), but, it doesn't deliver the subtle tonal qualities in deep bass that the Kageki can deliver (it sounds more punchy than the Kageki, but this punch is a bit "mechanical" in its sameness).
I think that the best amp I've ever heard is an OTL amp that is also a custom build. It manages to deliver the explosive dynamics and liveliness one expects from an OTL while not being the least bit harsh and edgy. The next best is a pushpulll 252 amp (a tube similar to the 300b, but not murky and bloated sounding) that I heard side-by-side with the Kageki that made the Kageki sound limp and drab. The next amp on my personal favorite list would be the Audio Note Gaku-On (parallel SET) or my 349 amp.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm not done yet. Poor Jadis Now that the real news is starting to go viral, SETs are back as the new high tech WBers are in Leaves no place for big hefty PP amps..\ Not sure what Jadis was thinking. They offer maybe 1 set amp. The future is 100% SET. Here is what went down 95%+++ of all USA audiophiles jumped on the high impedance/low sens/big box xover types. You know Wilson's, vandersteens, magnepans, Von Schweigert's, Thiels....so Jadis went where the money is, A-Z big box speakers require PP amps besides the avg USA audiophile loves adores massive soundstage SPL and monsterous size bass slam. Places SETs at a slight disadvantage So Jadis knowing what the consumer demands, made all its models PP amplification.
Now with everything headed to SET/high sens speakers.. Jadis is going have serious issues trying to play catchup, when you can get a great chinese SET for under $3G's.
Over the comming decades you'll see big PP amps dumped along with big box speakers on the cheap. SET + high sens speakers will be The Bomb. I see Larry is trying to market his PP votes and a OT amp.
Can't agree After my experience with a SET + WBers, sadly my Jadis will collect dust. I have $2K recent mods done and am not going to sell. EDU, EDU, WE need to educate the newbies about SET's as magical magnifience, Pure music, finesse, super high fidelity and lush mids, solid bass, glorious highs. Sure we are only talking a miniscule gains in these areas, but its a rather nice modification in fidelity vs a PP's pure POWER energy. Also note this 250 tube SET has bass slam as good, better than the Defy's 100 pure true watts. 6+6 SET wattts, = same as Jadis ' 100 true watts.
Go figure.. We need to demystify these SETs, there is alotttt of misunderstanding about what these amplifiers are capable of.
Its all about using the linestage vol control, PP amps make awaeful limitations on how much gain you can use,, whereas SET's give freedom on the vol pot.
This is what I mean about **only a nuance,,but a significant nuance**
Someone mentioned presence earlier in thread. I started off many years ago with ss, then class A ss, next push pull tube, finally SET tube. My first SET was 845, smitten with sense of presence, could also be called immediacy, right from the beginning. SET brings performers into room like no other topology. Add horns to the mix and this sense further heightened. Also, modern sounding SET amps don't roll off highs and have round, fat tubby bass. My present system is rather neutral flavored, can even veer off into analytical territory at times. One can flavor SET as well, I've had 2a3, now have custom built 300B monoblocks, Coincident Turbo 845, Art Audio Carissa Sig. 845 and Prima Luna Dialogue Four with diy mods, push pull amp. Each of the SET has it's particular sound, all bring sense of live performers in room. And I play every genre of music, some may think EDM (electronic dance music) couldn't possibly sound good with SET, quite the opposite. As for large scale classical, I would say I've heard greater sense of scale with wonderful high powered ss. Still, my SET pretty nice with this music. Rock, jazz, folk, etc. , all smaller scaled more intimate music, they all work with my setup, my playlists all over the place when I'm streaming music. I will never leave SET, live performers in room, ability to change flavors, micro dynamics just amazing, sufficient macro dynamics with correct speakers, transparency that just amazes. Whats not to like!
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