Roon vs OS and Native Players - Impact on SQ?

When I ran ROON through a MAC mini to my Bryston Pi endpoint.  The soundstage was pancake flat compared to streaming directly through the Pi's  Manic Moose an MPD.  Moved the Core to an SGC with Sonic Orbiter, put in a Mesh Network node at the rig and got decent network cables and now ROON is on par with the direct stream to the Pi and MPD.   When you set the Pi to Roon Ready it shuts down MPD I do believe. 

When I compared Roon through my Auralic Aries G2 vs their native lightning DS on the same streaming file, I dropped Roon that day. I was not the only one to come to that conclusion. It’s not because Auralic struggles with Roon. Quite the opposite.

My belief (I don’t have factual data to back up but it is a logical conclusion) is that Roon must operate across many hardware systems (much like MSFT windows) and proprietary OS are able to address cache and buffers directly. Each hardware system is different in this regard. Size, signal path, etc are different in every device. And, similar to windows performance being variable across different hardware systems, Roon must do the same. After all, our streamers are computers that are optimized for the task at hand. Why wouldn’t we expect there to be differences in performance?  

For those that believe digital files are merely 1s and 0s, that is true. But the slope of the voltage change that helps a DAC interpret the 1 or 0 is measurably different across sources. And, noise (not hiss) is carried along for the ride. So, after experiencing it directly, I put a fair amount of thought to why and it’s no longer a surprise to me that software can sound different, and hardware too.

Best,

mgrif104

@mgrif104 

What was hosting the core?

@mgrif104

I believe the hardware interface between the DAC and source has a bigger impact on the sound than the software being used. (I am not saying that software does not have an impact on the sound) When the hardware interface is usb, AES or SPIDF then you must contend with noise and timing issues. When the interface to the DAC is ethernet then you must contend only with noise. Ethernet is bulk data transfer. The entire frame must be received and processed before any analog signal is generated. If the frame is not received properly then the entire frame will be re transmitted not individual bits.

@ jbuhl

I too have had issues with the mac mini. I compared running roon on a mac mini and a PC. The MAC definitely provided an inferior sound. I then put a fiber optic converter on the mac Ethernet interface and this made the sound quality comparable to the PC. I surmise the MAC is a noisy device.

@toro3

I have compared roon to Aurender. I duplicated my music library on two disks one in an Aurender N200 and the other disk in a MAC mini running Ubuntu and Roon. The mac mini used a fiber optic converter on the Ethernet interface. Using a Bricasti M21 I connected the Mac/Roon with ethernet and the Aurender using USB. In comparing the two sources I found their sound to be comparable. There were small difference nothing that made me prefer either one. Other people may find the differences significant but I did not.

@jbuhl When you set the Pi to Roon Ready it shuts down MPD I do believe.

And I suppose we could presume that this could be happening with other OS and their native players (maybe).
 

@mgrif104 My belief (I don’t have factual data to back up but it is a logical conclusion) is that Roon must operate across many hardware systems (much like MSFT windows) and proprietary OS are able to address cache and buffers directly. Each hardware system is different in this regard. Size, signal path, etc are different in every device. And, similar to windows performance being variable across different hardware systems, Roon must do the same.

This would essentially indicate that the OS native streamer doesn’t necessary have an impact on how Roon is implemented or its SQ, but that instead it’s more or less the nature of Roon and how it interacts across the different hardware systems (as you mentioned). The delta of performance is how the native OS addresses the cache and buffers directly (again, as you mentioned). That makes a whole lot of sense to me.

@welcher  I believe the hardware interface between the DAC and source has a bigger impact on the sound than the software being used. (I am not saying that software does not have an impact on the sound) When the hardware interface is usb, AES or SPIDF then you must contend with noise and timing issues. When the interface to the DAC is ethernet then you must contend only with noise.

I agree with the hardware interface between the DAC and source having a greater impact than the software. When the interface to the DAC is Ethernet and only needing to contend with noise, I wondered whether in certain situations that simply adding an Ethernet filter or optical conversion prior to a DAC/streamer combo in comparison to a separate DAC and streamer via USB (for example) may actually be more cost effective for the SQ one may be attempting to achieve. Again, this is me attempting to reduce the variables while attempting to comprehend what’s being said, which had me thinking. 

I am 100% Innuos, have the Zenith MKIII and use the Sense application. Left Roon in the rearview after making the switch to the Innuos ecosystem. Kept the Roon server and ecosystem in a second system and still it was the weak link in that system. Bought a use Zen MKIII. I am a lifetime adapter to Roon and now my daughter and her husband have my old Roon system and are enjoying it. 

@jacobsdad2000 I haven’t experienced the Innuos Sense UI, but I hear it rivals Roon which says quite a lot IMO. The stickler for me is that you’re somewhat “trapped” in that ecosystem as the UI and playlists can’t naturally be  transferred to another manufacturer outside of Innuos. This is where Roon’s value presented itself to me - during a recent transition from one streamer to another streamer. I didn’t have to learn a new UI or transfer (or re-create) any playlists. I was up and going within minutes. I found that extremely convenient, and dare I say, comforting. 

OP you can use Roon with Innuos. I found the sound quality very flat in the Roon environment and having a very revealing DAC and being on a fiber network It was very evident the lack of quality in the Roon ecosystem. I can only think of another UI that I would switch back to and that would be the Simaudio Mind2 player and OS. 

@jacobsdad2000  thank you for that. Totally agree/understand - and soon users of Aurender may be able to use Roon as well. And I think that was the theme I was trying to communicate - Roon and its users’ playlists, album tags, and history being able to transfer from one Roon Ready streamer to another Roon Ready streamer whereas I wouldn’t be able to with Innuos Sense and it apply to an Aurender model (for example).

Your experience in SQ between Roon vs the Innuos native player seems common amongst Innuos users. From what I gather from previous responses, Roon’s SQ isn’t impacted by whether or not there’s a native player available, but instead how Roon is interacting with the streamer’s hardware, with differences in SQ being more pronounced by very good implementation - like that of Innuos Sense -  of native streamers. And because of this, the delta of difference of Roon’s SQ on various Roon Ready streamers could vary (presuming on my part).

I found the sound quality very flat in the Roon environment and having ....

Dont mean much without knowing  the set up details....

Roon is actually hard wired into the Wadax Reference Server operating system.

Wadax was an early adapter to Roon and there are custom Wadax Roon Extensions. very happy how Roon has worked and performed these last 2 years with Wadax.

@jbuhl 

I was hosting the core on a souped up Mac mini dedicated to that task alone. I turned off everything else and had 16 GB memory and a solid state drive. 

I’m not trying to say Roon can’t sound quite good - it did for me. But, the native OS and library management software to my Auralic unit sounded significantly better. 

I can easily imagine that Grimm and WADAX have optimized things such that Roon performs at a very high level. But I stick with my contention that making software work across a wide variety of hardware/platforms is very difficult - and would be nearly impossible to optimize for each. Just like Windows.

There is an important take away in this that I’ve mentioned before. For those of us with hardware that’s Roon certified - that also has a native app - why not have both? In my Auralic unit, I could easily have Roon for everyday listening and switch to Lightning DS for serious listening. It’s perfectly fine to have both options. That said, I am also perfectly fine with the UI and operability of Lightning DS. So, I just don’t really need Roon. I’d keep it if it sounded better but it doesn’t.

My experience only. YMMV.

Best,

It looks like certain Aurender models are now Roon Ready and can be enabled for use with video and written instructions here. I would be really curious to hear from the Aurender Roon users.

Ready mode is a free upgrade available on all Intel-based “N-Series” and “ACS-Series” models. The “A-Series” (A200, A15, A20, A30) will be added soon. Older AMD-based models including S10, N10, W20, W20SE, X100, X100L, A10, A100, N100H, N100C, N100SC will not be compatible with Roon Ready mode.

Here’s everything you need to know to get started using Roon with your Aurender:

Here’s everything you need to know to get started using Roon with your Aurender:

1. You’ll need a Roon subscription in order to get started. If you don’t already have a Roon subscription, sign up for a free 60-day Roon trial subscription here: Free 60-Day Trial
2. Your Aurender is Roon Ready. That means it will seamlessly discover and connect to a Roon system running on your network. But, a separate Roon Core is required to interface with any Roon Ready devices. The simplest, most powerful Core is a Nucleus. You can also download and install the Roon Core for free on Mac, Windows, Linux, select QNAP and Synology NAS devices, and Intel NUC running ROCK. For more info on how to set up a Roon Core, take a look at this short and informative video.
3. Install the Roon Remote App on your iOS, Android, Mac, or Windows device.
4. Update the Conductor App to the latest version on your iOS or Android device in the App Store or Google Play store.
5. Update the System Software on your Aurender by going to Settings ➡️ Software Update in the Conductor App.
6. Enable the Roon Ready service by going to Settings ➡️ Streaming in the Conductor App (register your Aurender if prompted).
7. Depending on which Aurender model you are using, you may have to choose the desired Audio Output that you want to use with Roon. This allows Aurender and Roon to optimize the settings for maximum performance with each output, without compromise:

When I owned Auralic Aries G1 I compared Roon to Lightning DS. I cancelled Roon subscription. I restarted it later in with Lumin U1 Mini and actually preferred Roon over the native Lumin software in both sonics and UX.

It depends on the design and implementation of the OS. For example Auralic used SSD cache, albeit not huge in capacity but enough to be able to leverage it in their implementation and processing. In addition to whatever else the proprietary firmware was responsible for in making the difference. 

I like roon for all it's curated content, suggestions, artist data, interface, etc. I must say music sounds better using the innous sense app in "standalone" mode in my system. Don't know why this is. I use both, but mainly the sense app for the better sonics.

Different software, different hardware = good chance of different sound.

Someone should do an unbiased shootout between some popular options and let us know the results.

I switched to Roon from Plex about a year ago after doing a shootout between the two. I posted results here if anyone interested. Spoiler: Roon straight out of the can won hands down No doubt

Worth noting that Roon comes with default settings but also includes user configurable DSP, one of its most valuable features for an audiophile. It can pretty much make Roon sound anyway you like it to. But it does have a learning curve and not for old school analog-only purists if any of those still around who believe the only way to tune or tweak one’s sound is to move to better and more expensive hardware. DSP is tone controls on steroids. You can apply it just right or many ways to totally destroy the sound quality as well if done poorly. The devil is always in the details.

@toro3 

B. As a Roon user, how much of a bottleneck are we talking about in terms of diminished SQ when comparing Roon to Aurender, Lumin, and Innuos native players?

How about Antipodes? 

With Roon, you can run Roon server/core on many devices of choice from existing home computer to audio "high end" server. Then you can stream from pretty much any device you choose, from smart phone to tablet to home computer all the way up to high end Roon Ready streamer.

That means you can start for minimal cost by leveraging hardware you already have, and go from there as you please. If you have the funds and desire, you might end up on dedicated "high end audio" hardware. Or not.

THe point is that cost of entry is minimal and you can "upgrade" from there as you please over time if needed. So you have tottal flexibility regarding how much you need to invest in a streaming solution that floats your boat.

At the opposite end is proprietary high end streaming solutions like Aurender. THis will cost you way more to start and meanwhile you have not even tried more cost effective solutions first to compare with.

Personally, any streamer I buy has to be Roon Ready or bust. Not interested in getting locked into any expensive high end audio boutique brand for something as widespread and growing these days as high res audio streaming.

I have heard high end  Aurender (and Roon) for example sounding wonderful in various systems at high end shows. More costly systems should! With a proprietary hardware and software solution like Aurender you are taking a plunge into the deep end and will probably never look back. If you have the funds to do that, more power to you. But now you are locked into that particular company’s not inexpensive hardware and software solution. Many high end audiophiles with deep pockets are used to that so no problem. Whereas with Roon you get to choose from many options, from more common home and mobile computing devices to specialized hardware devices that are on-par with other high end specialty designs. I have yet to hear Roon disappoint. From headphones to my grandest system (pricey compared to teh norm yet still modest cost wise on teh grand scale of high end audio) Roon always delivers excellent sound quality .

I've compared Lumin's app (and Plex app which is basically a custom shell over top of the Lumin app) to Roon.  I've heard bigger differences in cables, to be honest.  But with Roon+Muse and my Ayre QX-5 Twenty DAC (ESS ES9038PRO chip), it's a no-brainer that Roon sounds markedly better when sending max O/S rate directly to the DAC chip.

Being such a flexible solution that runs on so many different devices, performance and reliability is where I have seen Roon come up a bit short over the last year. However, since the harmon acquisition, there have been several new releases in recent weeks that appear to have resolved that, which is a big plus so far for Harmon.  Things run much faster and reliably now.  I'd encourage anyone impacted by past performance and reliability issues with Roon consider taking a fresh look. Looking forward to what may come next.  So far thumbs up for "Harmon"-ized Roon.

Another cool thing about ROON is the control app can function as an endpoint. Sometimes I will take a set of blue tooth headphones to bed a listen to a little music via the iPAD to relax. The desktop app the same, it sees my little Audio Engine D1 attached to my Mac and I can play my descent headphones if my work gets mindless enough.  Not to mention the new ARCH capability which I have not tried because I dont have my local files indexed in ROON. 

@mclinnguy Antipodes could definitely be included in that list. In all honesty, they were simply excluded since I’m not too familiar with their offerings, but I have heard wonderful things from owners on this forum.

@toro3 Ok, then allow me to add part C:

C. As a Roon user, how much of a bottleneck are we talking about in terms of diminished SQ when comparing Roon to Antipodes native players?

Let me summarize my recent streamer/player experiences/thoughts and speak out loud for a minute:

First, I love Roon. I have had it for many years and I like others have a lifetime subscription, so my comments have nothing to do with the monthly fee. I have only had the Antipodes for 3 months, and up until then have never used any other app or other "native player" other than Roon for 6 years or so. The UI is still the best their is.

I’m no expert and have done no research on this, but from what I have read Innuos and Antipodes both use squeeze framework for their native player. Antipodes still calls it squeeze but Innuos renamed it. Don’t know if Aurender started from scratch or modified Logitech’s as well.

It is rumoured, again just what I have read, that some big-name streamer companies have consulted with Roon to customize their player software and "fine-tune" it to their liking, and people who have heard Taiko or Grimm have been quoted as saying the Roon in those players sounds much better than the Roon in a competitors streamer/player. I haven’t heard any of these, and for a while was interested in the Grimm but then you are locked into their proprietary software, which is actually Roon, which I had no problem with at the time. But I feel I made the right decision to go with Antipodes instead because one is not locked into any software- there are many options, much more beyond Roon or Squeeze- and there is even an option to use Roon’s wonderful UI as server app and Squeeze as the player app. Genius! Jplay, HQ Player, Minimserver, MPD and MiniDLNA are other options. A few Antipodes owners are remastering their files using PGGB first which Antipodes handles better than other streamer/players- I don’t know much about this. I may explore this in the future- Audio Bacon recently did a review of this PGGB software.

Now to address part C.- yes, to my ears, Roon sounds different than Squeeze.

Saying the same thing 2 different ways, first in a favourable Roon light:

Roon is rounder, warmer, and more forgiving.

In a less favourable Roon flavour:

Roon has a more opaque bass, a congested midrange, and rolled off highs.

Squeeze to my ears is more transparent, separates instruments better, and has better frequency extension- with no reduction in richness or naturalness- yes it sounds "better", but care must be taken in cable selection or lesser quality recordings sound that much worse.

To quote a professional reviewer who recently reviewed the K22, one I respect and enjoy reading his informative and well written reviews more than anyone else:

"So, how does the K22 sound with Squeeze? I won’t sugar-coat it; Squeeze sounds a lot better to me than Roon, certainly on Antipodes servers. Playing the same tracks as before, there is a new level of tightness, crispness, articulation, and overall precision to the sound. It’s a leaner presentation, for sure, but the server simply refuses ever to sound dry or anemic. The transparency and precision are definitely increased, but even so, I still hear the richness, saturation, and flow that characterize the server."

K22 review

Pretty much exactly as I see it. It is nice when reviewers hear things the same as we do 😉

@mclinnguy 

…

Roon is rounder, warmer, and more forgiving.

In a less favourable Roon flavour:

Roon has a more opaque bass, a congested midrange, and rolled off highs.

…

that’s pretty much in line with my observations when I owned Auralic Aries G1. I would also say that the flatter and narrower soundstage I noticed with Roon is most likely a bi-product of the above. The UI Roon offers is absolutely the best though.
Nothing compares to it.