Rogue Audio and Audio Research Comparisons

@skucie 

       Thanks for the comments.

@skucie 

Thanks for your comments. I own an ARC Ref 160s and have had a pair of REF 160m monos for many months. I have heard exactly what you have said repeatedly… folks just cannot let their REF 75se go.

When I can, I will have to let my REF160s go when I purchase a set of REF 320m mono blocks. 

@runwell I got my 160S in December, directly replacing my '75SE.

The '75SE is a sweetheart of an amp.  I love the way it looks and I've used it with Von Schweikert VR4SR and Vandersteen 5A speakers (and a couple others for short times).  

In comparison, the 160S was like cleaning the sonic lens.  Much more immediate, making the 75SE sound sluggish by comparison.  Dynamics are improved, leading and trailing edges of notes are more defined and natural sounding.  The soundstage is both larger and more precisely focused, and there is more information.  The 160S seems to have a lower noise floor.

The 160S, cold, with no hours on the clock, bested the 75SE in all categories with the possible exception of a relaxed quality in the high frequencies that could have just been imparted by the new tubes in the 160S.  I've got nearly 1000 hours on the 160S now and it's been absolutely fantastic.

All that said, I haven't been able to bring myself to list the 75SE for sale.  I have it in a closet now, I like knowing that it's there if I want it.  It's one of those products I could really see kicking myself for getting rid of in the future.

Let me rephrase when I said "the 160S blows the 75SE out of the water."  I expected the 160S to be better.  Hell, I expected it to be a lot better than the 75SE.  The difference was more than I was expecting.

With the 160S, I have the impression that I'm hearing more texture and detail in everything, everything is more filled in on the surface and the image is more solid/dense overall.

Enjoy the Audio Research. Great company and great products,

Had several of their Amps and Pre-amps, Classic 60, 120,  Vt-100III, Ls1, ls2, Ls2bII  ls16.

And the Giant 350 solid state.

I'm questioning "blows" it out of the water.  May be different but would like more detail please. 

@skucie Could you give us the details of 160s vs 75Se?

The REF75SE is a really great amp, congrats!

My 160S blows it out of the water, but my '75SE isn't going anywhere.

Thank you everyone very much.  My next step was to upgrade the caps however,  I came across a ARC REF75SE that had just been serviced at ARC and has new tubes and a clean bill of health.  Only had it 2 days but it's amazing so far.  I really enjoy the Rogue and I'm sure if I upgraded the caps it would have improved the amp quite a bit but I'll be selling the Rogue soon unfortunately.  

Love the Apollos.

"Dark" caps are Mundorf EVO Siler/Gold oil

If I recall correctly, Mark said that two major "improvements" in terms of electronic components  in the Dark version are VISHAY resistors in key locations and more and better capacitors that are Murdorf's best.  He also uses Telefunken small signal tubes and I believe SolTol for the power tubes.. (mine are too hot at the moment to remove and check...been listening for several hours).  According to his site:

Apollo Dark Extended Features: [back to top]
- Ultra Premium coupling capacitors
- Increased power supply storage
- Hex Fred high speed diodes in power supply
- Polypropylene bypass capacitors in power supply
- Nude Vishay resistors in critical locations
- Rhodium binding posts (Cardas)
- Rhodium RCA jacks (Cardas)
- Upgraded signal wiring (Cardas)
- Telefunken and RCA small signal tubes
- Black anodized CNC machined aluminum chassis
- Entirely designed and built in the USA. (which is definitely true since I watched his friendly and skilled staff make them)

I am now driving Sonus Faber Il Cremonese speakers with the Apollo Darks which are in turn being fed by Rogue's RP9 preamp.  

The Apollo's are articulate with tight bass and a beautiful treble and midrange. No bloom, no veil.  Some say Rogue's amps are more SS than tube in character, and in that they are definitely not warm and syrupy, this is probably accurate.  But, not harsh or clinical either.

Curious to know which caps the Dark upgrade uses? Were the caps the only upgrade performed? As far as the Dark upgrade I doubt Upscale really gave 2 poops lol.

Thanks for replies on the apollos, wanted these for long time when I saw them at upscale, didnt hesitate and picked them up in person,

Pretty much a rogue guy. First thing I listen to recreation of space and even better lowend then the M120's or Zeus  fomr the Apollos

Guy who had them before me did the caps to dark level, which im very happy with to say the least. Upscale didn't know, have the receipts for the parts and its substantial.  Happy

I want the Apollo monoblocks so bad, just can't quite justify getting them right now!  I have no doubt they sound fantastic.  To me the Rogue sound is detailed, a bit muscular (for tube amps), with sweet, yet accurate not overdone treble.  My previous amp was a Parasound Halo, and my Stereo 100 has more defined bass, and less (zero) treble grain.  If the Apollos are like the Stereo 100, but better, then sign me up!  The value that Rogue provides is simply excellent taboot.  Figure within 5 years I'll have the Apollos.

I saw those Rogue Apollo's on Upscales site.  I bet they sound wonderful.  

Just brought home a Pair of Rogue Apollo Monos from Upscale audio.

Love them.

When I first bought Audio Research Ref 75Se last year and listen,I did not found it is such a good amplifier compared with Audio Research Old one VT100 MK iii.

The sound is different style from VT100 MK iii. When I listen and listen everyday, I realize 75SE is a big step up from VT100 MK iii, although I still love VT100 MK III.

My understanding for the amplifier right now is that  if the amplifier do the emotional narrative or not.

REF 75SE  in my opinion might be the top 10 best amplifier in the price under $10000.  Now there is REF 80s and the price is almost 50% higher.

Have no experience on Rogue Audio.

I did try the RP9 with Apollo Darks. Ref 6 or VAC Master is a better match in my system, even with the Apollo Darks. Actually the older Rogue Athena was a better match too. Hera II sounded really good but was too microphonic and noisy. RP9 sounded the most solid-state like out of all (and the Ref 6 is a hybrid too, though mostly tube). If my system was too warm and dark, the RP9 would be a great fit. Yes, it is very airy (so is the Ref 6). But I still feel the Master and Ref 6 are more refined and nuanced.

At least with the RP9 and Athena, a quad of 6H30 shouldn’t be terrible to source for a while and each set should last a long time. The ARC Reference components use 7 of these tubes each, and I'd be a little nervous if I didn't have spares.

The Apollo Dark’s bass impact and dynamics are superb. What did you mean "less" in reference to? Actually it can sometimes be TOO much here, with certain preamp / source and tube combinations (I like to use 12BH7 in place of 12AU7 which definitely contributes to this). I don’t like it to swamp the music, so system matching must be done with care. But it’s got more on tap there than the VAC 200iQ monos, for sure.

mulveling:

Try the Rogue RP9 preamp with the Apollo Darks... Mark even says that the RP9 is "airier" (his term).  I do wonder what will happen to this model since it is based on the Russian tubes (hope there are other sources).  Do you find the Apollo Dark amp's bass a little less dynamic or impactful?

@samzx12 

Sell your gear and get all Primaluna :)

@mulveling looks like someone has some fantastic experience with various manufacturers components.  That's what makes this hobby fun.  I'm glad you think Rogue amps are quite good.  Definitely enjoying mine and from my experience and Rogue offers a LOT of value. I agree the midrange can be a little dry at times however,  rolling in NOS tubes helps. I inserted a pair of Mullards in the 2nd slots in my Primaluna Evo 400 preamp behind the Brimars in the front slots and that helped richen things up.  

I’ve had a full stack of current Rogue tube gear (phono + pre + power), have a full current VAC stack, and have the ARC Reference phono + pre. And I’ve mixed & matched these components a lot.

The Rogue tube power amps are excellent (the best components they make), and can absolutely hang with and benefit from more expensive upstream components by ARC or VAC. As far as my Rogue Apollo Darks versus twice as expensive VAC 200iQ monos, the Rogue is a bit dry and SS-like in midrange (VAC more lush and romantic here) but also has decidedly superior bass response. Seriously, the bass is amazing. It absolutely hangs, overall. The Apollo Darks (tons of power and dynamics) with VAC Master preamp (this injects some sweetness and just sounds amazing all-around) and Ref 3SE phono (best phono stage I’ve heard) is a really nice combination. Haven’t heard the ARC power amps in my system yet, though.

As far as the full Rogue stack phono + pre + power - no, that wasn’t my jam. I definitely prefer ARC and/or VAC upstream components. But then I’ve been told the new Ares II makes some good strides forward, and I haven’t heard that yet.

I ran my ST-100 with Gold Lion tubes. Stock JJs don’t cut it as they sound plain and flat. I also had good experience with Brimar CV4003 from Upscale combined with the Gold Lions it was the right blend. The amp also sounded much better in Triode mode than it did in Ultralinear. It produced sweeter more vibrant and dimensional soundstage. Rogue customer service is also first rate. 
The ST-100 is a great value in its own right but it isn’t Audio Research Ref75SE level. The degree of improvement will depend on the components chain and speakers. I don’t think it’s possible to quantify without taking all this into consideration. 

Thank you Gakerty. I did buy some CBS 12AU7 but not the medical grade you mentioned.  They are a bit pricey.  The CBS tubes just have a nice linear sound but haven't spent that much time with them yet.  Amperex 12ax7 so far are my favorites.  

@samzx12   Yep, the Stereo 100 does respond well to tube rolling, and I agree that the stock JJs are unimpressive sounding, and on the thin side.  I've done a fair amount of tube rolling in the ST100.   If you can find a pair of CBS 7729 tubes for gain, get them!  The 7729 as gain are probably my favorite for the ST100.  Super detailed, dynamic, completely quiet and neutral.  I have those 7729 in my phono pre right now though, they are perfect there.  Right now in the ST100 I have good old RCA 12ax7 long black plates as gain tube, CBS 7730 as driver. This combo jives well with the RP9.  Amperex "medical grade" long plates sound amazing as gain in the ST100, as does the Tungsram 12Ax7.  I did not like NOS Mullard long plates, though, they seem veiled in the treble.  Anyway, it's all about flavor, it's hard to make this amp sound bad  : )

My favorite local certified golden eared dealer sold mainly Audio Research as his reference and Rogue for similar good tube sound for less.

In more recent years the Rogue Hybrid Class D gear took over as his favorite go-to.

I know some people with both a Ref 160s and a REF 75se… while the REF160s is an upgrade they just can’t part with the REF75SE because it sounds so good. 
 

Personally I always trade in my amp to reach up the maximum possible… I think folks not being able to give up their REF75SE says it all. They are wonderful amps.

The Ref160 is no doubt a step up (or 2) however,  I'm just curious in general how much difference is it between the ARC amps I mentioned.  Wish I could afford the 160. 

I've rolled in some Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7 and Brimar 12au7 and those tubes have definitely increased the performance of the ST-100.  While the stock JJs are decent tubes I thought they were a bit thin sounding.  

While I love Rogue and have a couple of their pieces  in my system (RP9 and Stereo 100), the best sound I've personally heard was an ARC 160(?) powering a big pair of Wilsons (was it  Alexx or Chronosonic?) at my dealer.  It was effortless and surreal, as if those mammoth imposing speakers weren't there in the room at all.  I think most would agree that ARC, generally speaking, is a step up from Rogue.  

I haven’t heard a Rogue in a while… but the ARC Ref 75se is incredible and quite a legend I think Rogue good, ARC great.