Why I don/t know, but the first thread has been removed recently. So, having benefited from it greatly, I felt compelled to recap my journey, so that others of limited budgets might make a huge leap that they otherwise could not afford:
When I first got my EVS 1200 I was using Series 8 WireWorld interconnects, speaker cables and Pangea Premier XL 1.5m coax cable. As you mentioned, I was extremely happy with the amp (compared to PS Audio M700s). Eventually I came across the Chinese Cable knockoff thread and first tried the fau-Nordost Odin 1.5m coax which was/is amazing: as they were so cheap compared to the $169 1.5m Pangea, I also bought a 1.0M Odin, but didn’t try it until after I replaced both the WW cables with Odin 2 XLRs and cables. Then I replaced the 1.5m with the 1.0 and was kinda blown away that 0.5m of the same coax could be THAT much better.
While my all SS system sounded very good, it was a bit too sharp, so I ordered Odin Gold speaker cables (at ~ $170/2.5m). Unfortunately one leg must of had a bad solder joint as it barely sent the music . It took a couple months before they replaced it, which I finally installed 2 days ago: BAM. Even immediately, but of course it needs break in time. The weather here (Ft Lauderdale) has been really bad, I have only left for short quick trips. Today we are under a tornado watch, so won't leave, but as soon as I can get out for a few hours I will put on my XLO burn-in disc, which I use on everything I insert, including the M 700s, EVS, and Voyager which expedites break in, which still takes a good 50-100-200 hours!
Summing this up: cables can/do make or break a system. If I had these cables when I first got the EVS, I probably would never have gotten the Voyager, which of course I am itching to compare again, but could still be awhile
OEM CARDAS quality versus illegal fake crap build personified in the pic ….. anybody still think the fakes are still “knockoffs “ of the original or going to sound anywhere marginally decent or anywhere close to the OEM. It’s graphic.
This is a well travelled and somehow still recurring post. These Chinese listings on eBay, Ali Baba et al are not “no name knockoffs” … these are just cheap crap build and illegal counterfeit fakes that illegally use trademarked brand names and patented designs thst escaped infringement litigation only because the vendors are sourced out of a repressive regime that supports it.
They are an inferior quality crap build (and choice morally) , with their obvious illegal and unethical practices, there are a buzzilion threads out there highlighting the crap construction . So here’s just a sampler highlighting all the the junk build and why they comparatively perform poorly.
Counterfeit cables news on the KIMBER and CARDAS websites speak volumes.These two are 100% all made in USA premium OEMs. and they have posted news of the POS build and illegal counterfeit fakes.
Common denominator in both :
- ALIBABA and ALIEXPRESS are all crap build illegal fakes , and everything shipped out of Hong Kong and China is a fake,These cheap build counterfeit fakes are produced with the cheapest materials and build quality they can get away with , ..go check out the KIMBER crap build example pics and the CARDAS last line reproduced here too.
The poster child of what a buyer can actually get:
see KIMBER website pic below in the link , about gently sanding a counterfeit fake silver KIMBER cable that reveals it to be just POS cheaply tinned cheap-as-you-can find-it hardware store cheapest available rough and poor grade copper ( no OCC) made to look like silver cables.
Some things to look out for when purchasing Kimber Kable online:
- Where is it shipping from? Any Kimber product shipping from Hong Kong or China is fake. Furthermore, any Kimber product shipping across any international border is probably fake.
- Has the product been discontinued?
- Is the packaging missing or incorrect?
- ANY "Kimber Kable" from Alibaba or AliExpress is fake.
- Any items selling as "new" or "multiple available" from eBay, Audiogon, auction sites, or 3rd party marketplaces should be considered counterfeit. We cannot cover these items under our factory warranty.
- The only way to ensure that you are purchasing authentic Kimber Kable products is to buy new cables from an authorized Kimber dealer or distributor. However, we realize there will always be a market for second-hand buyers especially given that Kimber Kable products retain such a high re-sale value. This high demand for used products and the fact that Kimber Kable is a trusted brand has resulted in the unfortunate appearance of counterfeit cables. These cables will appear to be Kimber but in reality will use the poorest of materials they can get away with to fool the prospective buyer.
There is not a single Kimber product that is immune from counterfeits. Before bidding on or purchasing Kimber from a site you suspect, we ask that you contact us including a link to the auction or website that you are thinking about buying/bidding. We can often tell from who or where it is being sold if it is a legitimate Kimber Kable product or not. We will quickly look over the prospective product and let you know of what we find.
If you have experiences dealing with fake cables and have information that you feel would be valuable in helping pursue these counterfeiters, please contact us to help pass this information along.
We’re proud that Cardas cables retain high resale value, even years after their production. But unfortunately, some unscrupulous opportunists prey upon unsuspecting consumers by selling counterfeits of our cables.
Some of these fakes are remarkably well done, visually, and even come in authentic looking packaging. Others barely try, slapping "Cardas" on cables that don’t look like anything we’ve ever made.
This is a buyer-be-ware situation. Some buyers are able to return their counterfeit products for a refund. But most are left without recourse.
How can I avoid counterfeits?
Work at Cardas Audio for at least 10 years . Our long-term employees can usually spot a fake about as fast as a mother can recognize her own child. Assuming you don’t work here (and statistically, you probably don’t), avoid sites like eBay and AliExpress. Every month we report dozens of obvious fakes using eBay’s reporting system, and nothing ever happens. Not a single post is removed, not a single seller is sanctioned. They just don’t care. AliExpress goes one further by having a broken reporting system. They pretend to have a mechanism for reporting counterfeits, but it is littered with dead links and buttons that can’t be clicked. they REALLY don’t care.
More trustworthy sources of second hand gear are Audiogon in the US and Canuck Audio Mart in Canada. Fakes rarely show up on these sites, and when they do, they’re both quick to remove them. There are probably trustworthy audio-focused sites in other countries. If you know of one, send us a link. If it looks good to us, we’ll list it here. And of course, consider buying from a Cardas dealer. Many of our dealers take trade-ins, and might have pre-owned cables.
Are some cables more counterfeited than others?
Yes. The two most commonly counterfeited Cardas cables are Hexlink and Clear Light.
Hexlink was a flagship cable from many years ago. There were many iterations, all using the word "Hexlink". It is, by far, the most faked cable. So much so that the majority of listings for Cardas Hexlink cables are fraudulent. The counterfeiters have produced more fake Hexlink than we ever made of the real thing.
Clear Light is a more recent cable, and for whatever reason, is now quite commonly counterfeited. And whereas Hexlink fakes stand out (to us) like a sore thumb and can almost always be identified from pictures, Clear Light fakes are really well done (on the outside. Inside is garbage wire), including authentic looking packaging and documentation. Be very cautious when considering the purchase of any cable labeled as Hexlink or Clear Light.
What sort of wire is inside counterfeit cables?
Bad wire. We’ve taken apart many counterfeits, and what we find is just hardware-store wire, at best.
If you can hold your nose and still buy Chinese fakes, here’s some AGON snippets
All these cheap Chinese cables are NOT “knockoffs” ….they are illegal counterfeit crap build fakes …. A big distinction. It raises two complimentary issues :
- the ethical issue of supporting illegal fakes flogged out of a repressive regime to avoid criminal prosecution for illegal trademark and/or patent infringement , and,
- without prejudice to the firmer, the quality build issue that the lion’s share are Simon crap build with no comparison to OEM models.
“Knockoffs” are NOT illegal fakes
AGONers cannot confuse “knock-offs / replicas” with illegal counterfeit fakes. The difference between counterfeits and replica goods are huge: starting with legal versus illegal sales.
What are replica / “knockoff” goods ?
Replica goods are close copies of the original goods. Also referred to as “knockoffs”, they are acknowledged to be modelled after the original famous product. Therefore, even though they share a striking resemblance with the original goods, they are EXPRESSLY NOT passed off as being the real deal.
KEY POINT:
(1) without consideration to the points below, let’s assume that our understanding of knockoffs requires an understanding that legit knock-offs havevnot infringed illegally on any patent or trademark registered by the original. Otherwise it would still be illegal intellectual property infringement via a vis trademark or patent , or both .intuitively
(2) Assuming no issue with (1) above, Replica or knockoff goods are considered to be legitimate copies because they do NOT BEAR the branded product’s TRADEMARK or infringe on a patent without the holder’s approval.
So, while a replica/ Knockoff might have the same feature and functionality of a famous or branded product, it usually carries a DIFFERENT SYMBOL OR LOGO to the famous one.
As a result, they are not outrightly illegal if and only if they are ADVERTISED AS REPLICAS advertised goods created to look similar to branded items, AND WITHOUT THE OEM REGISTERED TRADEMARK, AND prominently DISCLOSED AS JUST REPLICA fakes of unknown quality build not to be assumed as the same as the real deal.
What are illegal counterfeit goods?
Counterfeit goods can be defined as ILLEGITIMATE COPIES OR IMITATIONS of a product that are maliciously intended to be taken as authentic and genuine that could deceive a person.
Simply put, counterfeit goods are illegal fake products that are made of cheap substandard quality AND ARE BEING SOLD UNDER THE NAME AND TRADEMARK OF ANOTHER BRAND WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE BRAND OWNER. …ergo subject to IP illegal infringements and criminal prosecutions forcrepesr offenders in worldwide jurisdictions respecting the rules of law. ( Hint: China doesn’t )
As a matter of fact, trafficking in counterfeit goods is criminalized and punishable under laws in the USA and Canada and most of the Western world.
A core feature of counterfeit goods is that there is always the malicious intent to deceive and mislead buyers into believing or agnostically accepting that the product is authentic when it is actually the exact opposite. They are passed off as the genuine product.
Therefore, counterfeit goods as illegal fakes VIOLATE the trademark and other intellectual property rights of the owner of the authentic brand. Counterfeiting further embraces the associated elements of copying the labeling, packaging, or any other expressive features of the genuine product.
Counterfeiters thrive because the counterfeit goods are sold and advertised as low-cost originals to buyers (NOTE victims are separated from any “other” buyers for thinking they are scoring the genuine product at a stupid low price.)
Counterfeit cable goods are made in various locations with most in China, and there is a tsunami of threads on both AUDIOGON , CAM , etc. and also on the cable manufacturer websites, about the plethora of counterfeit crap build fakes being passed off as the real deal .The AliBaba and AliExpress illegal fakes are made in China and sold out of there and appeae in other foreign jurisdictions where illegal abuse of trademark intellectual property violation thrive.
TAKEAWAY:
it’s a binary choice moral question in this and oft-repeated threads, whether AGON as an entire forum will express culling for fake listing ads ; and also express condemnation in its forums for obvious or admitted counterfeit illegal fake units support that simply fails to pass muster.
This thread made me really curious.I bought a pair of gold colored ICs called "Cardas" for $27.I have no idea which Cardas the pair is trying to emulate but it does indeed sound way over the top warm and fuzzy. Two things I enjoyed were the vocals are warm and beautiful, the bass is very deep,full,and articulate.But the highest frequencies have vanished,no cymbals anymore.Some instruments are over emphasized and there's poor separation and no depth. Extremely warm and "tubey".They look and feel substantial with very nice locking RCAs. It's either going in the junk box or upstairs on the receiver in the guest room. Curiosity satisfied.
For kicks (and a waste of a little disposable income), I decided to investigate these knock-off cables. Or at least one in particular, the AudioQuest Vodka48. I knew I'd be throwing away money so I picked one that was fairly cheap. I happen to own a genuine Vodka48 and so this was an easy choice to make.
The outer box looks pretty good but I have yet to compare it to my legit box which is stored away. I also knew right away while opening the box, this cable was phony. It is significantly lighter in weight than any of my AQ HDMI cables. I own (3) Carbons and a Vodka48. After finally untying all the tie-wires, I got the cable out and it was way, way too flexible. The real AQ cables are VERY stiff. This faux-AQ cable feels like many of the $15 - $20 generic cables that I've bought off of Amazon for my less expensive video sources. The outer weave on the cable is also shinier and more blue than the OG. But overall, it looks decent though that you probably wouldn't notice unless you do a direct comparison. The connectors are probably the most realistic looking out of everything. They did pretty well in copying the look of the AQ jackets.
But if anyone is looking to buy used AQ HDMI cables (which I would never recommend even if a dealer is selling them), the cable is the most obvious clue in counterfeits. AQ cables should be VERY stiff and heavy. These are quite pliable, light and cheap feeling. I am not even going to hook this piece up to any equipment.
These knock-offs are cheap enough to take apart and carefully examine, preferably under microscope or magnifier. They are not high quality smooth copper with premium insulation. Just try and see! The uneven texture of the conductors can be seen in a photo from your phone.
@yadathe link you provided is for interconnects. Im looking for Odin Gold COAX
@middlemassThanks for the link. The jacketing appears much thicker. To be clear, I mean that they spool. The big question for me (as you said they lay flat) are they much better than Odin 2 Gold, which sound amazing in my system
The Valhalla 2 I purchased from RM Digital does not roll up at all. Lays flat and solid, no issues. Hope that helps. If anything, the cable is quite stiff, completely different than what you described with Blue Heaven.
Ive tried to sell legitimate non-Chinese made cables but since so many Chinese clones the market for them is used Chinese clone prices. Every question was are these authentic wish I kept the receipt. I even told buyers where I bought them from and that they could contact them. But all I got was your selling fakes so I gave them to a friend. If you have costly originals the values just hit the floor. And I no longer will buy costly cables and honestly, I'm fine with it as I don't think I ever got real value from costly cables. Think that segment of the audio market was profiteering anyway. And the Chinese clones for pennies on the $ pretty much show that to be true.
Any Ali-E shoppers using COAX RCA? The only Odin 2 left in my system is the coax. I am still experiencing a slightly hot top end. It seems none of the companies make Odin Gold coax (RCA/RCA), so Im looking for a recommendation
Thanks in advance
@yadaI was sure he referred to the ribbons. My experience was they roll up which bothers me aesthetically
I don't want to offend either of you, but I think that tweak 1 might not know what your Valhalla 2 speaker wire from RM Digital that middlemass refers to is. tweak 1 might think it is a wound wire, like some Valhalla labeled speaker wires I have seen for sale instead of a flat wire resembling the Valhalla form factor. I think they are both great.
I will be glad to show you pictures of my Argon-filled 1mm teflon tubes with a 0.8mm wire inside, if someone explains to me how to post images from my MacBook Air into my response window: I tried everything but failed so far.
On a tangent here: I use neither US-made cables, nor Chinese ones, but make my own. I buy 5N silver wire or ribbon from a foundry in New Jersey for very reasonable costs, and all the other materials that go into a good IC or speaker-connect from those DIY houses, you are probably all familiar with. My next project will be re-wiring my tonearm with ultra-fine silver litz. I do not get stingy when it comes to terminals, though: I love those from Australia (ETI Research), even as they are quite expensive. I have developed my own technique, running the conductors in sealed teflon tubes that are filled with Argon gas (having a better dielectric constant then even air). You can buy a small cylinder of argon in any hobby-brew shop. I just finished a set of 1.5 meter speaker cables costing me a fraction of what is being offered on the market and reviewed in the mags we all read, but with a superior technology, that is not even commercially available. And the sound: mind-blowing! I strongly suggest that you consider making your own cables: not only can you save a bundle w/o buying "knock-offs", it's also a lot of fun to do, and there is a wealth of good how-to information out there on the web. Rather spend the real $$ on extraordinary records (I just splurged on the 45 rpm re-issue of the Bach cello suites with Janos Starker)!
Ok here’s my different take on my 2 system set ups…I have both Odin 2 silver and Odin Gold interconnects. They both sound excellent but I can’t really tell them apart. Settled with a full loom of Odin 2 Silver interconnects and Odin 2 ethernet on my 2 channel system with KimberKable 12TC Chinese copy speaker cables. On my Home Theatre/2 ch system I use Odin gold interconnects, Odin 2 silver ethernet, Valhalla identical flat speaker wire branded Audiocrast. I have Odin 2 silver speakers cables and they sounded very good but the Valhalla are much improved. However, they do take 75-100 hours of use to get past their initial brightness. I have not tried the Odin Gold speaker cables due to my interconnect comparison results. I Also cover my speaker wire with black flex braid sleeves to make them look nicer and not stand out.
I have ordered a second pair of the Audiocrast (Valhalla) speaker cables for my 2 channel system to compare/replace the Kimber Cable.
What would there be to accuse me of? Having an opinion? I agree that the Gold are better than the Odin 2's. That was my experience also. And the Valhalla 2 is even better. TO MY EARS. YMMV.
Interesting that @middleman preferred the Valhalla 2 ribbons to the Odin Gold. I am not accusing him of anything, but I am floored by how much better the Gold is compared to the Odin IIs. I had real Nordost Blue Heaven ribbons decades ago and the rolling up of the ribbons annoyed me to no end
Anyway, clearly as good as these Ali-E cables are, Odin Gold or Valhalla IIs, they are outstanding value. YMMV as to which better fits your system
FYI the Odin IIs sound much better in my TV set up with OS Audio GCC 250 and Swan Diva 6.1s
Yes, that is correct. Was pointing out that I’m basically using a full loom of Gold products at this point and couldn’t be happier. Was just curious about trying the flat cable and am very pleased with it. Might switch back to the Gold after a few months.
Thanks for the feedback.... Just to confirm, you tried the Gold round Speaker cable for a period of time, then went to the Vahalla 2 (flat) Silver Speaker cable (your above post mentions trying seven different Gold cables ( 2 interconnects, 5 power cords).....
"Are there non-knockoff (genuine) CN cables anyone likes better for the same price?
What's puzzling some times is why most everything investigated or praised is some kind of "knockoff" cable. How about genuinely good well built cables from China through one of the reputable providers listed here. Are those worth mentioning too."
I have a pair of TOTL copper Viborg interconnects - 09G801. I’m using them between my Bob’s Devices Sky 20 & EAR Phono Classic. Very nice. Not inexpensive (about $200 CAD +/-). Solid copper connectors.
Never said I didn’t like them. Used the Silver Odin 2 (9 months,) and then the Odin Gold (3 months.) 2 interconnects and 5 power cords, also. 3 of those were originally Silver but all 7 have now been upgraded to Gold. Have been so impressed with this group of products, particularly the cost versus performance ratio, that I decided to try one of the pricier offerings, the flat cable Valhalla 2. A whopping 170.00 for a 2 meter pair. I’m at one month break in and they’re simply outstanding. Yes, better to my ears than the round Odins. More of everything yet somehow more relaxed and natural. Hard to put into words.
What didn't you like about the Chinese "Odin Gold" speaker cable (I am referring to the round body style (not the flat wire type) compared to the silver " Vahalla " from RM Digital?
I found this speaker wire with similar look of Valhalla to sound fleshier than my Valhalla 1 speaker wire yet still have the Valhalla sonics. Very robust and fast speaker wire. RM Digital is the only store to sell anything with this form factor.
I have original Nordost Odin 2 cables. One of the members in my audio group obtained these Chinese cables and he came to my house to compare them. The interconnects, especially the gold, looks very similar to the original (from the outside). They sound wonderful especially for the price and hate to say it but they have the Nordost signature. I would say they give 70-80% of the real Nordost sound.
Unfortunately I think the Chinese use the same interconnect cable design for power cables as well as speaker cables. This makes the Chinese copy power cables sound a bit harsh. The worst is their speaker cable as it is not even close in design (nordost makes ribbon speaker cables). The Chinese Nordost speaker cables are also made with interconnect cable design which clearly causes distortion. I have not tried any other Chinese versions (digital cables).
Of course it is for the individual to decide if it is ethical to support copying and flagrant disregard to patent rights. I understand that the originals are way overpriced. So I don’t think anyone can be totally faulted for going the Chinese route.
Anyway buying is not illegal but selling them as real ones may land someone with criminal consequences. So please be careful.
Looking at the most positive side of roxy54’s original post it serves a very important purpose to inform potential buyers of these cables being sold as used (expecting the genuine article) to be on the lookout for counterfeits.
If you want to buy them, who really cares? But I ask myself what I would think as a new person considering joining Audiogon what type of people are members of the site if they author threads actively promoting the purchase of Chinese counterfeits?
You are absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, we had a member posting here in this thread (now deleted), a cable hater, proudly proclaiming he bought several counterfeit cables and sold them as genuine, duping many people and making a fortune in the process. Yes, such jerks exist. Unfortunately
Looking at the most positive side of roxy54’s original post it serves a very important purpose to inform potential buyers of these cables being sold as used (expecting the genuine article) to be on the lookout for counterfeits.
If you want to buy them, who really cares? But I ask myself what I would think as a new person considering joining Audiogon what type of people are members of the site if they author threads actively promoting the purchase of Chinese counterfeits?
You are absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, we had a member posting here in this thread (now deleted), a cable hater, proudly proclaiming he bought several counterfeit cables and sold them as genuine, duping many people and making a fortune in the process. Yes, such jerks exist. Unfortunately
Looking at the most positive side of roxy54’s original post it serves a very important purpose to inform potential buyers of these cables being sold as used (expecting the genuine article) to be on the lookout for counterfeits.
If you want to buy them, who really cares? But I ask myself what I would think as a new person considering joining Audiogon what type of people are members of the site if they author threads actively promoting the purchase of Chinese counterfeits?
RE: Odin Gold speaker cables. Now in the system about 10 days and sounding better and better How so? Warmer in the low-mids, upper mids and the bass, which collectively draws much less attention to the highs
I use various Chinese Nordost Odin Silver and Gold, interconnects, power cord, and ethernet cables. Also use the Chinese (Nordost Valhalla) flat speaker cables. Agree they are amazing speaker cables. Better than the Silver Odin’s in my systems. Mine were Audiocrast (don’t like them using the Nordost brand) but exact same construction. All these cables sound much better than any other cables I have used. Ended up selling off my Morrow cables and am very content. Just wish they would stop calling them Nordost which they obviously are not.
I read that the wood blocks were used to absorb/reduce cable vibrations??
I have purchased several different cables from various Chinese vendors on Aliexpress (power, interconnects, etc.) and found most of them to offer "extreme bang for the buck".....YMMV
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