"what my knowledge has to do with known facts. it's regardless. it's just there."
That's memorable. I thought Yogi Berra said some funny stuff, but that's right up there.
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what my knowledge has to do with known facts. it's regardless. it's just there. |
@ TBG, Hi, Your 6-1-14 post to me made me fall out of my chair laughing!, That was over the top funny, Thankyou, In the world of audio, I need a good laugh to keep my sanity in this hobby of ours, cheers TBG. |
@ Jmcgrogan2, I would ignore Judyazblues as I do, he has nothing better to do than to make remarks that mean nothing but his own entertainment! |
Czarivey, you need an education into reality, but if you are happy just stay that way. Please, however, don't post on threads that you have no knowledge to bring to bare. |
5xLabor? Now I know. I've never paid 5xLabor for my automobile repair even if 5 dudes worked on that! Why should I pay 5xLabor for assembling wire? $6,000 for just a labor? LOL!
Please don't tell it to anyone outside of this site, otherwise you'll get at least advice to see specialist. |
06-01-14: Judyazblues
Pot, meet kettle. The irony is delicious! LOL!! |
Czarivey, hmm, let us try that: parts $800 and labor $1200. $2000 x 5 + $10,000. The AudioQuests are too cheap. |
If I were you I would make my own cables.
Czarivey Technology. You will become rich :) |
As to Harmonic Tech, Siltech, high-priced AudioQuest, I calculate the following:
Parts: $10...20 x 5 = $50...100 + labor another $40...50 that totals $100...200 which is substantially less than $5000 or more. That implies to make no sense whatsoever according to the simple arithmetic analysis.
If you have trouble doin' it on paypa you can take a calculayta |
gazillion....mmmm nice word :) |
Tbg, read previous posts, you know better and Bo mentioned that gazillion times and almost in every response he mentioned in multiples "It's not about the price".
Do a copy of all of the posts of his onto notepad and use CTRL+F to find that same phrase. |
I like things to be clear :) |
There is a main reason why people react so differently to this thread. It is not about who is right. Why do we see it so differently?
Instead of defending our personal thoughts we have to focus more on what the reason is for our reactions.
I have said it often here on Audiogon. In all the 16 years I do this work my biggest irritation is the overwhelming part of average and poor quality on the market.
When I worked for over 6 years in a shop we had so much different brands and stuff. I did compare as many as I could. I found out that the differences are too big in endresults. So my question was: why as a consumer I would want these products? And why we sell these products?
It was not my shop. I already had my thoughts and doubts. At shows the differences are big as well. Here it is a combination of low quality stuff and the wrong combination caused by the wrong properties togheter.
From 2005 till 2007 I did visit many sets from about 12000 dollar till 180.000 dollar. I saw how easy it is to get a average or even low endresult by even spending a lot of money on audio. These situations and thoughts from the past did change my way of thinking about audio a lot.
I did run a speciality shop from 2007 till 2009. I had a lot of freedom and I could choose what I want. Here the difference between 2 and 3 dimensional sound was to big for me. The question I asked myself: why you want a 2 dimensional stage if you can get a 3 dimensional stage for the same money. I started to focus on less brands.
I Always want people to have the freedom to choose. Because I want this freedom myself. So I started to explain what 3 dimensional sound is. After letting people hear a 3 dimensional stage, I saw how exited people became. When people have the money they all choose for a 3 dimensional sound.
These days it is a lot easier to create a 3 dimensional stage for a lot less money than in the past. This is a good thing in audio. But.....most of the shops still sell 2 dimensional sound. But not only 2 dimensional sound. Their products often are not that special. Now that I am my own boss I could not sell these products to my personal clients anymore. Because I want them to get a better endresult.
Prices in cables are based for a part on the material but also because a brand wants a cable in a certain price level.
Silver is more expensive to buy for a cable brand compared to copper. The extreme prices some brands ask for copper cables I don't understand.
Don't forget that cabels above 10.000 dollar are not ones which will be sold a lot. This makes it more expensive to produce them in smaller quantities.
In all the years I test I have seen that in the world of cables there are not a lot of what I think give a stunning endresult. This can be said also about; amps, sources, speakers, conditioners etc.
Many audiomagazines are paid by advertisments. So I understand that they can't be negative about the brands who advertise in their magazines. But the question is: is it honest and objective? No.....I don't think so. I don't like this either.
And now the question: what can 'stunning' expensive cables bring extra to a set? First of all it depends about the quality of the stuff you own. When the properties fit the tools ( equipment) you own it can do things a more expensive amp can't give to you with less expensive cables.
I give a few examples: Some cable brands give a stunning black level. Blacks are the space between voices and instruments with their acoustic information when they were recorded. Better blacks give you a more physical touchable image of the instruments and voices. Even when I used more expensive amps I could not achive it. Cables are very important in this part.
I love the best silver cables on the market over the more expensive copper cables. Why? Very simple to explain; they give me more resolution, more decay, a wider and deeper stage, more air around instruments and voices, a better individual focus, often a smaller and more intimate image. The best ones also let you hear the differences in Heights of instruments and voices during a recording. These things can't be achieved so easily with more expnsive amps or sources.
Are they worth it? When they can give you a better endresult than an upgrade with a more expensive amp or source they are. Because the endresults counts and matters most.
Even when prices are high, the endresults counts most. Comparing gives consumers freedom to choose.
* there is still a long way to go to make audio more open and honest. But this is the most important part to survive in the long term! |
Czarivey, you said, "So what's so different between Mogami, Demarzzio priced in average $50/m vs. let's say Harmonic Tech priced $5,000?
5xparts+labor does seem to be far far away from $5,000. There's certainly +scam!" and now you say the second cheapest sounded better. Did you listen to the Harmonic Tech?
On one hand you say costly cables are a scam but sound can rule out the cheapest??? How much money can sound justify costing more? |
i've never said that they sound same. same experiments you can have with even $5 ones depending on which parameters you "dial" using any specific wire brand and even end-up being spent just $5 for one found in flea-market. as previously said by Bo "it's all about system synergy" right?
I experimented between Dimarzio, Mogami and Monster pro audio grades for RCA and XLR and found Silver which is second cheapest line sounded best. |
Audiolabyrinth, I merely count him as a poor used car salesman.
You also see why I might ask that question. Some will be interested and some have nothing to do but suggest that they cannot hear well. |
Czarivey, You have not been appointed to the scam police; kindly stop acting like you have been. Your logic is faulted by you guess that wire is wire, connectors are connectors, etc. Plus you include no possibility that one would sound better. Again I ask, what is your purpose in posting as you can be sure no one counts you as someone whose opinions matter. |
So what's so different between Mogami, Demarzzio priced in average $50/m vs. let's say Harmonic Tech priced $5,000?
5xparts+labor does seem to be far far away from $5,000. There's certainly +scam! |
When you read through the different answers on this thread you see that many have their doubts about expensive cables and audio in general.
I understand and their sceptical thoughts are right. What I said earlier; in my personal opinion above 90% ( or even95%)
about every single tool in audio is not worth the money.
What needs to change is that there comes more open and honest information about products in audio for consumers.
The overwhelming amount of audio on the market makes it more difficult to get a good endresult.
The focus need to be on quality and not on the overwhelming amount of shit there is on the market! |
>>05-31-14: Audiolabyrinth
I like Bo, But he does tend to over whelm you with his ideas of repeating them over and over<<
Pot, meet kettle. |
Yessss Shunyata is giving a much too big image in general. At a show they played a number I know well. The voice was over 3 metres big. At those moments I thick.....go F.... yourself. And yesss again it was with Shunyata. This has nothing to do with a realistic image. Only people who do not know a lot of recordings are able to buy it.
Audioquest has it all. It is very dynamic, very fast, blacks are one of the best there is. And instruments and voices are intimate just like in real. This is how I want them. The extra resolution and stunning blacks make them become physical.
The better silver cables from Audioquest even make the stage wider and deeper. More decay. Also instruments and voices become even more physical as in real. The best interconnects Audioquest makes even give you the difference in Heights in a record.
When you compare a MIT cable of the same price you are amazed of how much lower the endresults are. A lot less decay and resolution. You go back to copper. It is a lot less physical and intimate as well. Difference in Heights are much too difficult for a MIT to bring to you.
It depends about how much you want to spend....
* I would not use the NAD anymore to be honest. I would get ride of it directly. I see it as a weaker point compared to the rest. Even if you only use it as a transport. |
I should add that my CD player serves as a transport. It's feed via a digital cable through the Peachtree DAC. |
My current system is 3 dimensional. Recently I had a home audition of Cardas Clear Light and Shunyata Cobra Z-TRON speaker cables. The Cardas was too dark in my system, with no life. The Shunyata is open, detailed, very three dimensional, with outstanding separation, and front to back placement. My only concern with the Shunyata is the image is too big. I would like a cable with the sonic characteristics of the Shunyata with normal image size. Since you are such a Audioquest fan, I was wondering what cable you would recommend from them? |
In the US there are brand we don't have overhere. I am only familiar with your cd player. Difficult to say. Depends about the properties of the stuff you own.
And what you would like to change compared to the sound you have now?
I tested your cd player. it is a 2 dimensional player. It did not build depth at all. I sold this one. To be honest I would not do it again. I saw it as a big mistake in 2008 that I started to sell NAD again.
I do not know the properties of your speaker and amp. |
Bo1972,
What Audioquest speaker cables do you recommend for my system. |
We have it here as well. Only a few shop have it. In the lower price ranges I also sell Audioquest. Giving very good results. First we used Inakustik a lot in the lower price range. But after comparing we also started to sell Audioquest in this price range.
Audioquest has all properties in one cables I need for my 3 dimensional physical image. |
I've seen, compared, heard, knew AND know. Hear Mogami cables if you haven't heard.
Just compare... you will know... Hearing is believing. |
Cables is all about comparing. Finding the best for the money.
Slisssstech cabels is also a brand what it easy to win in a-b comparison against other shops.
Harmonic same story.......
But Mogami cables even loose from the Audioquest cables in the low price range.
Hearing is believing....just compare....it is easier than you think..... |
Siltech? Harmonic? AudioQuest? Chinese cables no kiddin'! |
Mmmmm...Mogami cable? Are you F....Kidding me?
Mogami.....Mongol cabel? |
In the past I sold many Valhalla powercables only about telling what they do. On the Phone without listening many bought them. It's GENIUS. I've never thought about that. |
Dear Bo,
I'm your biggest fan.
Best regards,
Bo |
In the past I sold many Valhalla powercables only about telling what they do. On the Phone without listening many bought them.
They knew what I said is what it gives. It is about thrust and believe. Many phoned me back to say how happy they were
with the cable. And that it gave them what I said.
When you only choose the best cables it is easier to compete against other shops. It is extreme effective. Audio ia about creating a better endresult than another competitors. For me this it the most fun part.
When I do a show I want to be the best. You work more precise and it works.
I am 16 years working in this world. In the last year it goes faster than ever. Because I have convinced many people ( also in this business) that I can create a much higher level in endresult.
Because I put a lot of time in testing many stuff and new systems. Many people are sitting on their fatttt ass. In audio you have many fat people. It says a lot!
You need to focus on all new things in audio all the time! |
@ TBG, I am supprised to see you are still talking here on the thread you created after Bo1972 hit the thread, I like Bo, But he does tend to over whelm you with his ideas of repeating them over and over, good luck, btw, great topic TBG. |
Cables are one of the most passionate topics. I own Nordost Frey series 2 and some better ones. I'm always game for blind study. I've been sent many and these I keep. |
Norm, yes, I am well aware of the 5x parts&labor and it is business 101 in niche electronics markets and I have been involved in some companies. I used to work for Cisco and they had 85% gross margin on their gear in the good years, everybody was happy: investors/shareholders, employees, customers so good margin is needed as reward/goal.
I sincerely hope the number of audiophile users grow exponentially, so that competition and the economy of scale will enable the average audiophile to be equipped with great infrastructure (cabling, isolation, etc) w/o taking another mortgage.
Bo, have you not gotten enough warnings to stop rambling?!? Don't you have customers to look after? And...
>>Those who sell these products which are not worth it make audio in general unreliable.
You are part of that food chain, right? So why spit on it? |
Jazzonthehudson, You know the "five times parts and labor rule?" You are right that there are instances where manufacturers are making a fortune. I well remember when Bill Low brought out Big Red speaker wire. After that wire he made lots of money. |
Bo1972...you have absolutely no idea what it takes to bring an audio product ..say an amplifier... to market. there are so many 'arm chair' quarterbacks in this hobby. |
You can listen with your own ears to these expensive cables. So you can Judge for yourself if they are worth it yes or no.
Comparing makes audio more clear and open. With this information you can make your own decision.
In my opinion over 95% of everything what is produced in audio is not worth the money. Those who sell these products which are not worth it make audio in general unreliable.
That is the main reason why we react so differently on this thread. |
>>How much those cables actually cost to make?
About $300-500 max after start up phase, the rest goes to sales/marketing and some to R&D (10-15% for small companies, less than 10% for larger companies), the numbers are derived from discussions, observations and my experience in the high tech industry. So the one company that sells wires with some magnets is having a ball of their life; some overzealous commentators keep on promoting those magnets. No doubt, I know first hand how good they but we don't want fan boys only thread on the Gon, do we?
Having said that, I still buy expensive cables (yes, those too) as they take my system to a higher level but am constant lookout for cheaper alternatives and once in a while I perform an auto- sanity check. |
>> I often write very fast and normally I do not read it back!!
I hope you are more Precise with your Listening. Anyway, just my overwhole Impression. |
Sorry Roxy about the mistake. It is Overall. I often write very fast and normally I do not read it back!! |
I often talk about a realistic proportion of instruments and voices, or intimate sound. I give you an example; The new Pass Labs poweramps .8 series are according to the people of Pass Labs giving a better sense of space and depth are greater, the layer of instruments and placement is much better and locked in space. Vocals have more body and substance. And, the bass goes deeper and is tighter.
They paid attention to achieve a more physical image as well. This also can be achieved with cables. When you listen to a system with a stunning black level and physical intimate image you know in a few seconds that it is different and that it comes closer to you.
This is a very important part to create more emotion during listening. The same thing can be said about how much information you hear from your system. When it goes deeper you wil feel the difference in what it does to your emotion. When I put of my subwoofer, people are stunned about the difference in emotion. You go back to a lower level of exitement and pleasure.
When you have a wide and deep stage and instruments become all physical apparent it does a lot to your emotion.
The overall sound are all the parts togheter. It is quite easy to explain what is missing. I invite a lot of people at my home. This makes it very easy to explain.
Many of my clients have the same kind of 3 dimensional physical image. At the end you Always can hear my sound back. Because I work exactly the same way all the time.
It is easy to hear how deep and wide a stage is. You can hear how deep a system goes in the low frew. And you can hear how good the level in blacks are. Instruments and voices can become what I call round. They go from 2 dimensional to 3 dimensional. Often voices and instruments are rather flatt. You also can hear how much resolution and decay there is a set. Same about the flavors in the mid freq. Control and timing are also not difficult to Judge.
When you do this for a long period of time and have done it over and over again you hear and understand patterns.
When I talk about a convincing sound I mean that every single person understands quite easy what it makes nice and addictive to listen at. I know this because I like to ask people with totally no knowlegde in audio what they think.
This information is very important. I Always want women to listen to it as well. Wenn they come along with there partner. In general women have a better developed hearing. So I use it. In the past I Always had about 300 cd's with me. I asked them what they would like to listen. |
Bol1972,
Still can't let go of that "overwhole" thing? |
When I visit a client I know in a few seconds with my own music what is missing and what is there.
When you visit me, you would NEVER know with YOUR own music what is missing and what is there. Only I know with MY OWN music what's there or what's not. |
When I visit a client I know in a few seconds with my own music what is missing and what is there.
I can listen to all different parts which needs to be there for what I call Total Sound in a few seconds.
Here on Audiogon it are words. As I said many times; I am a lot better in sound than in words. I only make remarks when I am 100% sure that it is as I wrote it.
As a perfectionist it needs to be exactly as what I said. Because there is no room for error.
The biggest difference is that my focus is Always on the endresult. To all those who buy just one tool from me I want to know the sound they have at home. I try to visit as may clients as possible.
I did hear a lot, but you never can hear everything. But what I do in these situations is that I try to make myself known with the properties of the different tools.
Audio for me it about properties. Because this gives by far the best endresults.
When you create all the parts for Total sound you get a addictive overwhole sound. That is what I do. I can send clients to all other shops because it is Always less convincing and often less complete.
Many clients ask how come that my sound is so much more entertaining and addictive to listen at?
It is very easy to answer; It is more complete. Because the parts I put into a system all have a positive influence on our emotion. That is why I let people listen between 2 and 3 dimensional sound. This difference is huge. That is why I send clients to other shops all the time. In above 90% they sell 2 dimensional sound.
They make it easy to compete. It is a lot more than only the 3 dimensional sound. All the other parts are also important. Because you listen to all parts togheter including the acoustics.
When you have my knowledge and insight you can adapt a lot quicker than other people can. This gets you to a higher endresult all the time.
When I am at a show within 10 seconds with my own music I can describe exactley what is missing regarding to all parts for Total sound.
This is what I do, I explain what is missing. Also to my clients. After this I put in those properties which are missing. For me it is that easy! |
Bo1972, I must say that your quest is impressive, but I doubt if anyone has information about the right combinations to achieve the best sound. There are just too many combinations. No one has heard all the different cables that are available, nor all the different speakers, amps, etc. No one has heard all the permutations of these choices, much less know all the taste differences among audiophiles, much less how bad or good their listening rooms are.
Yours is a good sales pitch but hardly convincing. It is much better to have friends who have sought good sound and follow some of their suggestions to see if they help you. |
There is one thing in Audio for sure: expensive audio does not garantee you a stunning endresult. You can spend a lot of money on audio but at the end it is not that impressive.
From 2005-2007 I did visit many people with expensive sets. They had one thing in common; the endresult was often not that good.
Is there a reason for why it is not that good? Yesss there is. Many people who have audio as a hobby think they know a lot about audio. But in real they don't.
When you do not know the properties of every single part in your system, you don't understand how the stage and overwhole sound is created.
Often all the different properties togheter are incomplete or do not match. For me it is clear why it won't work. Often they don't understand why.
They tweak often with cables. But when the speakers with the amp and source are incomplete or do not match it is difficult to achieve a good endresult.
People will come in what I call a circle. Then audio is not that fun anymore. They change parts all the time but cannot get a sound what they hope for.
When people spend more money audio get's even more difficult. Because your demands are getting higher.
Audio is all about the art of sound. Making the right combinations. This is based on using the right properties togheter of all the different tools you have in your set. |
Dose doods probably have wealthy parents. It often implies to laziness to analyze and research instead of simply throwing money away. |
