Rega P10 v Complete rebuild Garrard 401!

Seems quite costly over there in the US for anything Garrard. Check out eBay UK here for a decent 401.

Don’t be afraid to buy from the UK. Check to see if they can expedite shipping if you want. Lots more available there and always cheaper than US. Did you check in with Matt Taylor of AudioGrail?

That all depends on how much you plan to spend on a tone arm of course. And do not forget price was in CAD so a lot less in USD.
And very likely open to a decent discount.

Just my thoughts, best on whatever you decide.

Thanks.  It’s very tempting.  But by the time i add a tone arm and cart I’m w/in a stones throw if a “new” Woodsong. 
I really appreciate everyone’s help and insights.  Seriously great community.  

It's still there, just checked.
You have to check  the add from Canada checkbox when searching.


 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649580155-garrard-301-oil-bearing-turntable-and-plinth/

I just went through listings on audio mart and do not see a Garrard 301 or 401.  Lots of Linn LP12 and some good Thorens.  

Mglik.
I thought that open plinth 301 was very fair for the money.
Indeed if I had the spare cash it might be sitting next to my 401.....

Which is why I posted the link to begin with, the open plinth not to everyone taste but it also had capability for two arms. A nice mono and stereo setup would be possible.

Gunner,
I would strongly consider that $3500 rebuild on US Audio Mart that was linked in a previous post. The open plinth is not ideal but the amount of rebuild seems pretty good. And the rebuild and plinth appears to be well thought out and good quality. I would try to talk with the seller and, maybe, make a good offer considerably less than asking.
As mentioned, I feel lucky to have found that beautiful Woodsong 301 with the Ortofon 309 you mentioned. If you have indeed found a 309 for $2500 that is a good deal and you could have a very nice 301 rig for $6k. Maybe think of getting into a better plinth as a future upgrade, or not. If you went this way, I would definitely upgrade your phono stage and get something like a lower line Ortofon MC cartridge for $500 to $1000. OR, be patient and wait for a nicely rebuilt 301 with arm to show up on the Audio Mart or Audiogon. I would not buy a used cartridge unless you factor in a stylus retipping. One last thing is that I believe the main difference between a 301 and a 401 is the cosmetic. Personally, I much prefer the more rounded, classic look of the 301. Especially with a good rebuild, the tonal difference between the two tables is small.
If you wait, as I did, you may be rewarded by finding a beautiful Garrard. However, nice rebuilt rigs are few and far between. I only secured mine because the seller had medical problems. Again, check out that 301 with the open plinth!

If buying an unrefurbished 401, try get one with the flat strobe window. It's earlier and by all accounts better built. Not a big deal if refurbished.

Can you reach out to Jim Campbell? He's a lot cheaper. My 1/2" solid walnut topped and maple birch ply cost $800.

thanks again noromance.   Right now I'm a strong lean to the 401.   I'm trying to closely match the wood veneer of my Harbeth HL5 Plus speakers in "tiger ebony".  As ebony is not cheap, a woodsong ebony plinth is $3800.  gulp.  thinking ortofon AS 309 tone arm and a Hana HL cart.  Trying to source a 401 for 1k, estimated $750 for rebuild, + $3,800 for plinth, Hana EL probably $500 and ortofon AS 309 probably $2500 so all in its estimated to be $8500 ish.   same price as the SkyFi (work done by AudioGrail in UK.

After having used a Thorens TD-125 and a SOTA Sapphire [with vacuum] for a number of years, I decided to pull out an old Garrard 301 I had, build a "floating" plinth for it using my Souther Linear Tracking arm with a "Helikon SL" cartridge, and can say that I have no plans to look any further.   I was amazed that a "vintage" table could perform so well. It is without a doubt the most satisfying sound I've ever achieved from the analogue end of my system.  My subwoofers [Linkwitz "Orion" loudspeakers] show no sign of complaint.  I highly recommend either the Garrard 301 or 401 as your choice.  I don't think you'll be disappointed ---------- 

@gunners01 If you decide on the 401, maybe run what you are getting and for how much by us first. Not sure what Woodsong do to restore one but I do know AudioGrail tears down the table to pieces and cleans, replaces rubbers amd springs and bushings, and strips the poisonous cadmiun from the linkages.

I picked up a new old stock (NOS) 401 on eBay from Germany (old EMI stores) about 10 years ago or so; built my own plinth and added a Scheu Tacco tonearm with Dynavector Karat cartridge.  This replaced a Planar 3, which was given to my daughter.  Have never been inclined to upgrade from the 401, and it'll undoubtedly still be running when I am not!

Mdalton.

Yes I  can visualize that indeed.

a combo to lust after.

Hi Noromance
new tube on the way to roll PHO.  And thanks for counsel.  Chris mentioned ModWright phono stage. Assume it was 9.0.  
I’m strongly leaning to Garrard.  Best 

uberwaltz, have been lusting for the Urushi Tsugaru, but sooo expensive.  but also sooo beautiful - imagine it with my blue plinth and Reed 3P cocobolo arm.  

Mdalton.

I have a koetsu black goldline spinning on my 401.
Go for it, you will not regret it.

You stand at a crossroads. Take the Thorens route and settle for a decent machine with the average Vincent phono. But you won't ever upgrade without losing big money. Take the Garrard route and you have a platform that will support top arms and cartridges. So, compromise on price and quality and have an okay rig or take the leap into the higher strata that will last a lifetime.
By the way, have you rolled the PHO tube?

this is your “forever turntable”. go with the 301 or 401.  when my woodsong 401 arrived, my first lp was wes montgomery, Smokin’ at the Half Note.  first track, “no blues” had me out of my seat - had never happened before. that’s the idler drive effect, very propulsive. when i finally sat back down, i enjoyed a fine single malt scotch - cao ila i think - and have never looked back.  only thing i’m thinking of changing is upgrading to Koetsu cartridge. oh my....

I talked with chris at Woodsong today.  I can see why everyone is so happy with him.  Knowledgeable, customer-centered and a passionate audiophile.  He clearly knew a great deal more than me, but never came across as condescending.  
I’m leaning the direction of a Garrard 301 with Woodsong doing the rebuild. However, and excuse ignorance in advance, but what does the forum think of the Thorens 1601.  Yep, belt drive, but classic design, and design principles and a price point that is below the rebuilt 301 and way below P10.  Perhaps I’m comparing apples to oranges, but bear in mind I’m on a P3 at the moment.   
I’m pleased with my Vincent PHO701 phono stage, and ideally don’t want to buy a new turntable and then feel compelled to entirely upgrade the rest of my system.  I get that this will forever be a temptation, but I would like this to last a while....at least until the S&P 500 comes back!

For what it's worth, I don't think we are talking about "wow and flutter".  I think the issue most harped upon by those who dislike idlers is noise manifest as rumble.  Let's face it, rumble is a potential problem, but proper restoration of the motor and moving parts and advanced methods of plinth design and build can reduce rumble to irrelevant levels, at least for Garrard and Lenco, based on personal experience.  A TD124 presents some more complex questions, because there you have both an idler AND a belt drive.

@bukanona, my 301 idler is a bit shiny and has small cracks developing so really needs renewing. Also the motor pulley is shiny polished and won’t grip the idler very well. So need to renew both. While I’ve got the RPM app out I should swap the good condition idler from the 401 into the 301 and see if there’s an improvement in w&f. I recall changing the oil in the bearing for a slightly lighter grade a few years back which centered the speed control. Also the motor bearings could do with some attention and the platter main bearing has developed some play. The 401 is tight by comparison. Not bad for the old 301 considering I bought it in 1989 for Aus$90 and all the work it’s done over the decades! Just looked at Classic Hifi Uk who can refurb it with a new paint job too for £500. That’s the beauty of a Garrard, it’s a well-loved classic that is totally restorable.

ndevamp,

check your idler wheels first for proper operation. In time (~ 60 years) idler wheel develops flat spots which can be removed with sand paper while turning it. Also check pulley it has to be clean and glossy. Remove any residues with solvent. Better to change it into new ones pulley and idler.
Garrard 301/401 as is is capable to reach less than 0,1%. If modded properly I was told it can reach 0,04-0,05% w&f.

I have reached a point in my audiophile life where the purely objective aspects takes second chair to the sensory. A prime example would be my Manley Steelhead. When I power it up and watch the blue lights come on and can see in an instant which of it's three inputs (one MM and two MC) is switched on, I smile. I know right away if it is my Thorens TD124 or my Garrard 301 that is ready to go. It's not just the visual but also the tactile. When I turn that input knob on the Steelhead, it again is with a certain sense of satisfaction. Remember the 1949 Buick Roadmaster featured in the movie Rain Man? It is like that; taking pleasure in the sensory masterpiece of something well designed and crafted with care and love. It is a classic for a reason. That reason includes but is not limited to objective performance. It gives a lot of people subjective satisfaction and joy. The very same thing holds true of the design and build of the two turntables I mention above. The same holds true of the incredible cocobolo veneered plinth that Russ Collinson crafted as a one-off for me. 
I can appreciate and I do accept smatsu's love for his Rega P10. I don't doubt his summary of it's performance level for a second. But I would never swap either of my decks for a Rega P10. Art Dudley has written about this very same topic and he is a much better writer with a much wider audience than I am. He has written about the obsessive devotion to detail that went into the manufacturing of both the Thorens TD124 and the Garrard 301. Each and every part was designed and built only for that single deck; no parts were shared from other models. Each part was built to endure and they have proven their durability over 60 years time, often with abuse and/or neglect somewhere along the way. Do you think that 60 years from now a Rega P10 could be rescued from an attic and refurbished to better-than-new condition with minor effort? Back to the car analogy, we all know that they don't build cars now the way they were built in '49 with that Buick Roadmaster and likewise, a modern day Honda Accord will be un-salvageable waste in 60 years whereas a '49 Roadmaster discovered in some dilapidated barn in Iowa-even 60 years from now barring the apocalypse- could be restored back to it's magnificence. 

Hi Gunner,
Thanks for sharing your feelings about experiencing a comparison between a rebuilt Garrard and a Rega, etc.
The main thing that guided me on my desire/quest to own a nice 301 comes from my friendship with the great music producer/record company owner, Winston Ma. Specifically, the rather incredible fact that Winston used his personal 301 as the source for one, or more, of his incredible $50+ “gold label” CDs. Before I actually owned my Woodsong (shout out to Chris), I always thought of Winston’s “master 301”. And over the years conceptualized the reality of the Garrard 301/401 sound as stemming from the solidity of the deck and, mostly, the idler drive producing the physical “meat” stored in the groves unlike ANY belt drive. Not to negate the reality of the “super tables” but not many of us can afford tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. I scored my Woodsong 301 with a $3500 Ortofon 309 arm for $5300 and feel grateful every time I listen and hear that wonderful, unique physicality that is a beautifully reimagined 301. In a real way, I was not surprised. A legend is not created without substantial cause!

@noromance, My 401 measures 0.11% wow and flutter on the RPM iOS app. I have the Kokomo bearing upgrade on mine. Can’t find anything about the SPH bearing on the net? Sounds like a worthwhile improvement though. My worn 301 manages 0.16%. The tonearm is 12”, don’t think I can go back to a 9” now!

for $ 9000 you can beautifully rebuild some Garrards rather than just one. 

@gunners01 I may be repeating myself. If you do go for the Garrard, make sure your plinth can accommodate a 12" arm. 

I’m going to buck the trend here and recommend the P10.  I have 2 high end systems in my home and turntables in both.  My main system has Harbeth M40.1 speakers and a fully upgraded Linn LP12 with Radikal power supply, Keel subchassis, Ekos SE arm, Akiva MC cartridge, and Zesto Andros vacuum tube phono stage.  My other system has Sterling LS 3/6 speakers, REL S5 sub, Rega P10 turntable, and Luxman EQ-500 vacuum tube phono stage.

Both of my speakers are similar to your Harbeth SL5 speakers.  I recently upgraded my Rega RP10 to the Rega P10.  Fremer’s review of the P10 is spot on and he loved it as much as I do.  The P10 is much better than the RP10 or P8.   The P10’s sound quality is in a league of turntables 2-3 times its cost.  The P10 package deal with the Apheta 3 cartridge and RB3000 arm is a great deal and if you shop around, you can get around 20 percent off MSRP.  The thing I really like about the Rega P10 package is that it’s engineered to work as a system (turntable, tonearm and cartridge) by the Rega engineers.  The SQ of P10 is fantastic, providing stable imaging, with a wide and deep soundstage.  Tonality, timber are lifelike.  The P10 is dead quiet in operation and the Apheta 3 is a great sounding and tracking cartridge.  I can’t stand any noise coming from my turntables and both my P10 and LP12 are silent operators.  I highly recommend getting the P10 with the Apheta 3 cartridge.
.  

Mojo....i admit that the SOTA sapphire is very appealing.  I really like the simplicity and classic lines of the design.  Aesthetically it is up there, but not quite the same as the older Thorens and Garrard.   As sacrilegious as that is to say when overall sound quality is the measure I’m seeking.   

I will absolutely look into the SOTA.   I’m also talking to Chris already at Woodsong re: a 401.   

@ndevamp The SPH bearing brought W&F down from 0.14% to 0.06% using a mobile app per its manufacturer. My 401 pitch control is dead center.

Here’s where I say (to Mijo) that I owned a Star Sapphire Series III with vacuum platter for about 10 years, as my one and only turntable. I sold it in the late 90s. I replaced it with a Nottingham Analog Hyperspace, another belt drive but an unsuspended one. Then came a succession of direct-drive turntables including a Technics SP10 Mk3 and a Kenwood L07D and a Lenco that I highly modified with slate plinth, massive upgraded bearing, Phoenix Engineering motor control, etc. My cumulative post-Sapphire experience revealed to me early on that the Sapphire had very poor speed stability. The decay of piano notes was frequently "sour". Bass was muffled and indistinct. And etc. Back in the 90s, I thought what I was hearing from the Star Sapphire was simply typical for vinyl reproduction. I realized the deficiencies of the Sapphire very quickly after purchasing the Hyperspace, and the issue was even more clear after I added a motor controller to the Hyperspace. All my subsequent turntables confirmed my initial post-Sapphire impressions of the Sapphire. I think a weakness of that old SOTA design, as I have noted many times, is the fact that the motor is mounted on the immobile plinth, while the platter floats on the suspension. This causes the belt to stretch when the suspension is activated, and may be the cause of the audible speed instability.

I do understand the potential value of suspending the works of a turntable, and I think the way to do it is to take an unsuspended turntable and put the whole shebang on a MinusK or Herzan platform. When you mention megabuck belt-drive turntables, you neglected to include the Doehmann Helix, which incorporates a Minus K stand into its structure. I have had some experience listening to the Helix, although I cannot afford one, and I found it to be the best sounding belt-drive I have ever heard. The Air Force turntables likely also air-suspend the entire chassis, to eliminate the stretching belt phenomenon, but I’ve never heard one. The fact remains that the SOTA Star Sapphire is not a contender. Since I do admire SOTA as a company, I would also mention that their more modern models (Cosmos, Nova, and Millenium) may have dealt with the problem I mentioned. And by the way, my Lenco is as silent as any other turntable I’ve heard, and in that system I run massive dedicated woofers in stereo from 100Hz down. We can argue all day about whose turntable is quiet and whose is not, but the point is that the 301/401 can be made to satisfy some discriminating audiophiles in that regard, your opinion notwithstanding.

Question from the real life

Garrard 401 vs Rega RP8.
Measurement wow and flutter who will be the winner?

Garrard 401 fully serviced but everything is still original (idler wheel also). Rega - 3 days old so as new.

I had such question from my friend who have measured his Garrard against Rega side by side. I can make you a hint clear winner was Garrard. He have pro device for this purpose not mobile app :)

If you look into Rega technical specification and manual you’ll find close to nothing. So how to buy turntable about which manufacturer speaks only about materials used? Of course in our century figures means nothing, marketing means everything.

All I can say is that I like my 401, flaws and all. I love the dynamic and musical sound, as well as the way it looks.
Sure, other turntables are technically far better and you can go down that road if you like. I’ve owned some of them. But I am happy with the 401 now.
I like driving an Alfa Romeo- fun, quirky, characterful. You might like a Porsche- seriously fast and precise.

Mijo
One assumes from all of your extreme and dismissive views on idler drives in general that you have owned and used them yourself in your system and therefore speak from deep experience, yes?

If not then please ease up as it then remains your opinion only!

ndevamp, not my subwoofers. And just what other considerable virtues are there other than the retro aesthetics? 
As a note, in my book anything under 100 Hz is certainly rumble and my subwoofers are crossed over at 125 Hz so it may be more of a problem for me than people who cross lower. But noise is never a good thing especially when you notice it. Given the now inflated asking price for these turntables and the additional money people have to spend on plinths and fancy idler wheels it is just not worth it. Also none of them are isolated which in my book is the kiss of death. Any good isolated belt driven turntable such as an SME, SOTA, Basis or Air Force will run rings around any of them. Air Force as an example makes cost no object turntables. They could easily do an idler wheel turntable but they stay with belt drive. Even the $450.000 Air Force Zero uses a belt drive. 

Just this morning on USAM
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649580155-garrard-301-oil-bearing-turntable-and-plinth/
3200 cad IS a steal at current exchange rates, the plinth looks very nice although might not be as solid and massive as some but extremely well made.
I really like the fact it has two arm pods, nice flexibility there.
Sure you then need find a good arm, but all part of the fun!

Gunner, if you really want wood than it is a no brainer. All SOTA tables are wood. The Sapphire has solid hardwood sides and a veneered top. They will make it out of just about anything you wish including Macassar Ebony. Call and ask for Donna  https://sotaturntables.com/

Regarding rumble on a 301 and 401, they don’t put out any subsonic rumble so will work fine with a subwoofer. It’s just a slight background noise like the idler wheel spinning, which it is. It’s very low in level, quieter than the record surface noise on a quiet record, and a solid plinth reduces it to almost nothing. But it never is really totally silent. Belt drives and direct drives are silent by comparison. I have the original idler wheel on my 401 (and 301, it’s wheel is hard from age and wear, and is a little noisier) but there are higher precision new reissue ones out there that work even better. To dismiss the 301 and 401 because of idler wheel noise would be to miss out on all the other virtues it does offer, which are considerable!

"Was about to say just what Noromance did.
Avoid Skyfi as their prices are well , SkyHighFi!"

I totally agree Skyfi is OVERPRICE is a joke!!! he think he selling GOLD LoL! you can find better deals somewhere else. 

i took a leap. purchased deck in UK, had it sent directly to Woodsong to be restored and had Chris create custom plinth (kind of blue).  relax and have fun. 

MDalton.  I’m in the DFW area.  
Uber, et al.  Understand and i may well just pull the trigger.  Need to noodle on this one.   

gunners01 where do you live? there may be some 401 owners near you willing to invite you for a listen.

Uber makes a good point. A properly restored 301 or 401 purchased at a fair price is very fungible.

Gunner
As far as listening to a 301/401 I decided to just buy one and if for any reason I did not like I was fairly sure I could resell very easily for little or no loss at all.
Yes its a bit risky especially in todays economic climate but the chance of ever hearing one on a demo or an in home demo are slim to non existent.

Thanks mglik.  
My issue is that I don’t have the means to really do a lot of listening sessions with many of the decks.  There is a REGA dealership near me, and I’ve now found a a clear audio dealer.  To my knowledge i have way of “test driving” a Garrard.   Plus in order to really test i would need to plug to my system.  Sorry if I’m being obtuse but not sure how i can really to a reasonable listening comparison  

BTW, If you decide to go for Rega, get a P8. It is 95% of the P10.
I used to be a Rega dealer.

Check out the YouTube titled Gerrard 301 vs Studer Reel to Reel.
An amazing video using the new SME $23k 301. The best sound quality YouTube I have heard from the UK Audio Show!

I was faced with this exact choice. The new Rega P10 or a rebuilt Gerrard 301/401. When I found a beautiful a Woodsong 301 used on US Audio Mart it was a God Send! Chris at Woodsong does an amazing job. And as good as the Rega is, the idler drive reproduces the impact and physicality of music that is a greatly different and addictive presentation from any belt drive table.
I am a long time fan of the Rega Sound. Natural and smooth. And the different philosophy of less mass below the stylus really works.
But if you can find a used 301/401 that has been transformed by one of the handful of these great rebuilders, grab it.