Record Mats In Combination With Weights

Why stop at 900 grams? Go for a kilo! Actually these are plainly excessive! No need for such high masses! Pity for that main bearing! Stick to something like the Audio Technica Record Weight. Wear on the main bearing is a concern!

@jasonbourne52 

There must be a reason these weights exist.  To be fair, I mostly have vintage albums that have some warping and the high mass weight helps.  It removes a horrible oscillating hissing sound on one of my albums.  As well as removes a hollow-like echo sound quality that occurs on all albums.

So, are you saying that there is a lighter weight that will accomplish the same effect without putting excess strain on the main bearing?  If so, what weight?  I am not familiar with Audio Technica's record weight.

The lighter weight that will accomplish the same effect without putting excess strain on the bearing is called a clamp.

Turns out the extremely light weight Origin Live Gravity One record weight (barely 2oz) works far better than any weight or clamp. But it doesn't flatten records. Just lets them sound better.

@millercarbon  

Do you use the Origin Live Gravity One ?

I've tried a number of record weights over the years from simple weights made of aluminium or other materials, from light to heavy, to more complex designs such as HRS. I've tried them on various turntables including low mass - Linn and Rega - and high mass - Kuzma Stabi Ref, Spacedeck - and my current PTP Lenco. Without exception they have made the sound worse. They do generally tighten up the image, but suck out tonal richness and dynamics.

(I also don't rate the Achromat - I have two of them in a drawer. I use a Collaro Tempest mat on both my PTP Lenco and my Rega P8.)

Look at the Sota reflex clamp.
https://sotaturntables.com/products/reflex-clamp/

The Sota Reflex is s worthy investment.
You can tighten it up by pushing out the pin.
I never understood the rationale behind weights.
But it is 225 g if you are to lazy to push down the clamp.

I use the Origin Live platter mat and the OL Gravity One weight.  In the past I have used heavy weights and some lighter clamps.  These provided different audible improvements and degradations.  Eventually each was set aside.  I have used the Gravity One since it was released and find it does improve my listening experience without some of the drawbacks I perceived with  my previous weights.  I have not used a rim weight.

guakus-

Do you use the Origin Live Gravity One ? 

Yes, it came with the Sovereign turntable. 

For many years before this I have been using my own DIY carbon fiber clamp. You can see it on my system page. It is designed to clamp the record flat to the platter from the outside edge. It does this by being dished out so only the perimeter of the clamp contacts the record. A carbon fiber washer fits around the spindle and holds the record up just a little less than 1mm above the platter. The clamp then presses the record down from this point, so that the outside edge contacts the platter first. 

Over the years this was tweaked and improved with fO.q tape on the washer and clamp, blue tack under the washer, and a mylar disc. This clamp is so effective that when removed after playing a side the record remains held down by atmospheric pressure. Yes my DIY clamp achieved vacuum hold down. I am that good. 

I took this clamp with me to CES and compared it with everything I could find. I heard nothing better at any price. It was so good DJ Casser copied it for his BDR record clamp. 

The reason I am going on in such detail about how freaking good my record clamp is, I want you to understand just what it means when I say the Origin Live Gravity One kicked butt, stomped its a$$, and it wasn't even funny. Before setting up the Soverign I used the Gravity One on my old table. It was no contest. MUCH better truth of timbre, greater dynamics, impressive detail, extension, just more of everything you want and none of what you don't.

Plus it weighs next to nothing. Slides on and off so easy. Just to look at it you would swear no way this thing is gonna work at all. A weight that weighs next to nothing. That is supposed to control vibration but it rattles. Flimsy, etc. Funny thing though, it works. Use it? Love it!

Fuzztone, the Sota reflex clamp is tightened by turning a nylon grub screw inside the collet clockwise with a 1/8" allen wrench. 

This is not that complex a situation. The purpose of a mat and weight/clamp are to dampen the record so that it does not resonate under the stylus. This dampening has to occur over the entire record surface. A flat mat and a weight just supports the record at the label and rim. The playing surface is up in the air. A mat that is smaller in diameter than the record and has a recess under the label will support a record under it's playing surface except there is no such thing as a perfectly flat record and a weight will not fix this regardless of it's weight. Reflex clamping where a thin washer is placed over the spindle and a clamp that presses down on the perimeter of the label only forces the record into the mat flattening it. For this to work well the mat has to be firm, perfect is the same hardness as vinyl. Kuzma and SME use this type of clamping and the Sota Clamp works this way as do a few others. Excess weight will wear out a bearing prematurely except for those that use a magnetic thrust bearing. Vacuum clamping is the best but complicated and reliability issues may arise with vacuum pumps. Noise is no longer an issue. The pumps are now very quiet. 

In short you want a firm mat 11 3/4" in diameter with a recessed label area and either a reflex or vacuum clamping. The weight of a reflex clamp is inconsequential.   

mijostyn
Why are you telling me? I've done it.
The key is grinding down a brad for a push pin.
Currently experimenting with Origin Live mat over Counterparts held by Sota Clamp with fo.Q tape on foam.
For me another benefit of the reflex clamp is that it grasps the spindle so I can start the spin on the heavy platter to ease stress on belt.
First belt (without procedure) 1 year.
Second belt (with) 35+ years.

I use a concave copper mat with center weight and an outer ring. The sound changes are significant, specially in those old records that are not totally flat, almost as good as the vacuum system in my Bergmann Galder.

The purpose of a mat and weight/clamp are to dampen the record so that it does not resonate under the stylus.

It is a lot more complex than that.
If you have a reflex clamp or heavy weight with washer under the label, then you are coupling the record to the platter or platter mat.
A concave platter/mat with centre weight/clamp  achieves the same.

Many aftermarket weights with a flat surface/no washer are doing nothing .

Excess weight will wear out a bearing prematurely except for those that use a magnetic thrust bearing. 

Unless you have a high mass platter bearing specifically designed for the additional weight.

Before setting up the Soverign I used the Gravity One on my old table. It was no contest. MUCH better truth of timbre, greater dynamics, impressive detail, extension, just more of everything you want and none of what you don't.

Hyperbole to the extreme.
The Gravity is just a lightweight tuning device that sits on the record.
It does nothing to flatten records, or couple them to the platter surface.
They would have you believe that if you put a piece of flooby on the record label it will improve the stylus performance  2 inches away on the first track. A 1/2 cup coffee or a lump of your childs playdough sitting on the label could be just as effective.

I have heard the Gravity on a variety of turntables - it is garbage, a con.
For comparison i have in house weights/refelx clamps from Final audio, Micro Seiki, Sota, Goldmund, Audiocraft and many others. I laso have a variety of mats in the house from Final audio, Micro Seiki, SAEC, Godlmnd, Sota, Seisin, Sumiko and many others.

When I heard the Gravity we tried it on a variety of mats and turntables.
Yes it slightly altered the sound, improvement - no,.

The worst record weight I have ever heard was the much vaunted "Stillpoints" - again tried on a variety of turntables and mats - worse than useless, although it added a little sharpness it muddied up the upper midrange lower treble by some degree compared to other designs.

There is no "best" weight or platter mat becuase the outcome of any of these aftermarket products is going to depend on the platter construction of each particular turntable and the tracking ability and sound quality of your particular arm/cartridge/phono combination.
This is why I keep  library of platter mats and weights/clamps on hand. It can be illuminating to revisit them from time to time when I am setting up turntables.
To believe that a specific weight/clamp solution will be effective on every turntable no matter what the construction is illogical and foolish.

I have heard the Gravity on a variety of turntables - it is garbage, a con.

Hyperbole to the extreme.

For comparison i have in house weights/refelx clamps from Final audio, Micro Seiki, Sota, Goldmund, Audiocraft and many others. I laso have a variety of mats in the house from Final audio, Micro Seiki, SAEC, Godlmnd, Sota, Seisin, Sumiko and many others.

A 1/2 cup coffee or a lump of your childs playdough sitting on the label could be just as effective.

See what I did there? Used all your own words to demonstrate just how easy it is to throw insults that all boil down to "no you’re not I am neener neener" which frankly is a more respectable reply than you deserve.

@dover

Well, foolish or not, the sound quality from my setup suffers on everything I play without those options.  Maybe I have been just lucky?

I have the Denon DP450 with the Ortofon 2M Red. I am now using the Archomat rather than the rubber mat that came with the turntable. I use the  Fluance Hifi  weight and haven't determined any issues with turntable function.  I have tested albums with the Fluance Hifi weight, both on and off. With it on, before I got the new mat and the sound quality was more structured and it solved some hissing noises and hollow sound effects. The Archomat adds a new layer of structure and clarity.  Based on the positive attributes that have been revealed, I take the position that these items are a positive influence on the system I am using.

Right. Because you are listening. But not lucky. That's just the way it is. Far as I can tell anyway. Every single thing I ever tried was better than nothing, than just a record on the platter. When I first brought this up to DJ Casser in the early 90's he made me a carbon fiber disk with a hole in the middle, crudest thing he ever made I bet. But that's the way it is when you test, doesn't have to be pretty. It worked, and that was enough.

Since then I tried lots of things. Playing a record generates a tremendous amount of vibration. Never seen any measurements but I bet the stylus in the groove generates far more vibration than the bearing, motor, everything else all put together. This should by the way be obvious and uncontroversial. Play any record, you can hear the music clearly just from the cartridge body vibrating. Can't hear the motor, platter, bearing, plinth, anything else. Just the cartridge. Main source of vibration.

Mats, clamps and weights all help to control this vibration at least in the vinyl. Things like OL Cartridge Enabler or fO.q tape can help with the cartridge. All these things help. The challenge is these vibrations run across the whole audio spectrum and dynamic range. It is super easy to dampen some enough to hear improvement. That is basically what all the different things do. What is super challenging is to control equally well across the whole spectrum. This is harder to do and also a little harder to hear. When one or a few things are made better this stands out. When everything is improved equally well the full nature of the improvement can actually be a little less obvious and harder to hear. Or another way of saying it can take a while to appreciate. But these are worth the effort because they are exactly the sorts of things we appreciate more and more as time goes by.

@guakus

The point I made was that each turntable is different, and will yield different results. In your case you succeeded in gaining improvements from the specific mat/weight you purchased. The key is exactly what you said

I take the position that these items are a positive influence on the system I am using. 

"on the system I am using"

@dover

Agreed.  I began this post to see if there was something I was missing about weight.  Whether it was something I needed and as it turns out, it's sort of like asking, "What's the best Bourbon?"  It's 110% subjective. :)

110% is lacking in the hyperbole department….. of course, i just had a shot of small batch redemption 

Bob Ludwig a noted master of well mastering uses the unique Brinkmann clamp and platter system…

Enjoy the music, and the Bourbon. We serve John Jay Bowman when we are out of rotgut.

@tomic601

My Bourbon tastes are a bit more eclectic. While it lasts, I prefer a pour of Jefferson's Presidential Select 18 Yr, Stitzel Weller Barrel. When that runs out, I suppose Maker's Mark will be my well.

well I can hardly imagine finer wood for a record clamp than an empty Bourbon barrel, glad to see you believe in volume purchasing ! Except for Ebony root but that would be hyperbole squared…

“Am I doing a disservice by having both the Achromat and a high mass stabilizer?”

Perhaps. How does it sound?

Fuzztone, excellent. You are right it is start up and the pully spinning a little that wears the belt. With some motors like the one I now have in my Sota also brake the pulley so strongly when you turn them of that you get the same type of wear.

Another nice thing about clamps that grip is they are useful in removing the platter from it's bearing. You just pull straight up.

Thanks MC for the Origin Live recommendation I bought both the mat and clamp, Wow the vocals improved, the lows are tight and the highs have expanded. 

Yeah, pretty impressive stuff. Try the Cartridge Enabler, and if you do be very careful to use only very slight tightening torque. I learned by experimentation. Try loosening very slightly, like 1/6 of a turn at a time, listen, repeat. Depending on your cart, headshell, washers, etc it might not make a huge difference. Then again it might. Someone paid $200 for a micro torque wrench to do this and some people swear by them. Or you can go by feel and listen, same result. Anyway this is real good way of learning super tight is not always better.

My understanding is the Enabler and Mat are the same material, engineered to facilitate directional vibration control. The Enabler for example is marked Top even though it looks like conventional material that could go either way. More here than meets the eye.