Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

Let me be clear that I do not advocate substituting one tube type for another when the two are of different types, like 12AX7 vs 12AU7. To do that you have also to be willing and able to change resistors and/or capacitors to suit the new tube choice. I was referring to choices a designer makes. Sorry if I was unclear.

You have it backwards: Uesugi produced components under the TEAC name.

Dear @theflattire  :  Uesugi was made it by TEAC and looking ist frequency rsponse deviaiton level of +1db  -0.5db I seriously doubt that Tamura was invloved down there ( Tamura was a lot better in several ways. )

"Tokyo Electro Acoustic Company (TEAC)
A big Japanese manufacturer of audio, video & instrumentation hardware. Makes consumer equipment and computer components under the TEAC name, semi-pro and professional audio and video equipment under the Tascam name and high end audio under the Esoteric and Uesugi brands. "

As you said probably only a " rumor ". I own true Tamura SUT and were in the vintage times a expensive ones and not like the Uesugi at 88K Yens. 

Look, I´m not saying is a bad SUT.

R.

@theflattire 

Thanks for the mention. Yes, SUT’s option still very much under consideration. It will happen, just not sure of the timeline. Looking more like early next year. 

If you are still looking for an SUT I just got an Uesugi Bros Type H 1:10.

Might be a bit better than my Hashimoto HM-7.

Only one record in but so far so good.

The Type L is 1:20.

The SUTs were done in collaboration with Tamura, rumor says.

@lewm 

Your point duly noted!

In essence, tube rolling is as much about understanding circuit design as it is about personal taste. The idea of swapping tubes to enhance a particular sound can be fun and rewarding, but it’s important to recognize that tube aging, expectation bias, and circuit compatibility are all major factors that can impact the perceived results.

I agree with you on being selective about the type of tube to choose for a specific role is far more critical than simply choosing the most exotic or expensive tube, and in many cases, this can lead to better results than relying on the often subjective differences between brands of the same type.

For now, I am just letting Model 4 play out with stock tubes and keeping my eyes peeled for NOS tube options. 

Lalitk, upon re-reading your “drive” statement, I now see that it should have been obvious to me what you meant. My bad. As far as tube rolling goes, and I’ve written this many times here, keep in mind that tubes age and can change character, even get noisier, as they age. Especially in the first 50-100 hours. So what you fall in love with on day 1 may not be lasting, and two, having spent big bucks on a rare or selected tube, we all have an expectation bias that inevitably colors one’s judgement. No one is immune to that. What I do agree with is selecting the best possible tube for a given job. This means for example don’t use a 12AX7 as a cathode follower if you expect it to drive even a middling load, and don’t use a 12AU7 for gain. There are several inherently better sounding tube types with near identical electrical parameters, no matter what exotic brand of 12AU7/ECC82 one cares to name. Unfortunately there are many preamps and amplifiers that commit one or both of those sins.

@lalitk   : "" 

But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. ........

With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preference ""

It's better an equalizer than any tube rolling strategy.

R.

Softone Model 4 phono continues to improve and today marked a noticeable shift in sound, rendering more relaxed and mesmerizing sound. 

Listening to “When Your Love Is Gone”  from Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson - 45RPM….gave me goose bumps. This is easily one of finest performance of Ben’s career…wish there was repeat mode on my TT :-)

@lewm

The distinction between gain and drive is crucial, especially in circuits where driving low-impedance loads or handling higher current demands comes into play.

But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. I can understand your confusion since you’re not into tube rolling..LOL!

With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preferences. Since the 12AX7 is so widely used, there’s a treasure trove of options out there, from vintage classics like Telefunken and Mullard to modern production from brands like Gold Lion or JJ.

Cheers!

12AX7s provide plenty of gain but actually not much "drive". Drive is a term associated usually with current output, and the 12AX7 is puny in that department. In any case, gain is what you need and what you get with a 12AX7. Just as well you did not find a Leben; nice as the Leben may sound, it does not have enough gain even for a low-ish output MM or typical "high output" MI (which usually makes about half the output V of a typical MM). It’s fine for a cartridge with at least 5mV output and provided you also use a linestage with added gain. For a typical LOMC cartridge, even with a SUT, the Leben is problematic.

Update: I haven’t found Leben or Accuphase on used market yet but I did find a hidden gem straight from Japan. After spending a week, I am in complete ‘awe’ with this amazing phono that is allowing me to appreciate and enjoy my record collection at another level.

With permalloy core wound transformer on board for Low and High MC and MM cartridges, Softone Model 4 proving its existence to be a worthy stablemate for my Etsuro Bordeaux (0.25mV). And a pair of 12AX7 aboard gives me plenty of drive to tube roll in very near future.

Anyone looking for a tube phono under $1K should check out this phono. It’s a screaming bargain!

http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm

I really sorry.

R.

@rauliruegas 

I tried to find a middle ground with you and that was clearly a mistake on my part. You’ve got me beat on the stubbornness front :-) 

Peace! 

Dear @lalitk : A subjective learning approach and the objective one both have its own limits where at that limit point one approach needs a help by the other and then looking with both approaches we not only learn but in true can grow up in favor of our enjoyment and in favor of the quality levels of the MUSIC LP reproduction.

Normally the gentlemans that go with only the subjective approach to take decisions are just followers of other audiophiles that have same stand alone subjective approach with out be aware of that limit point.

With all respect I think that in this specific SUT issue your approach stays at its limit and with you just can’t elevate the quality analog reproduction in your room/system and my take here is that you need to show to your self ( not to other audiophiles including me. ) that open mind you are talking about.

If we mix subjective and objective know-how/skills each one us will take way better audio decisions always along that we are really investing our money instead to just spend it.

In this thread you already have almost all the objective true reasons why don’t use a SUT and why is better for the cartridge signal MUSIC a high gain active units.

R.

@lewm  : Other critical issue is its noise measured level for MC that's lower than 70db. Well you can't ask a lot more at that low market price.

R.

On the Black Swan, the capacitor loading switch on the right (per the photo on the website) is labeled in uF (microfarads). That means if you select 0.22, for example, you are loading the cartridge with 220,000 picofarads (10 to the -12 Farads).  There is no way that would be advisable for any type of cartridge, so I assume the label of the control is just wrong OR that is not a control for phono load.  The capacitor load selector on the left makes sense for an MM type. Also, with all the gain options, it's too bad that 60db is the max phono gain for an MC, and I am kind of curious why so many load options for MM, but no 47K option, although 50K is close enough.

I'm throwing in a vote for Barry Thornton's Austin Audio Black Swan MM/MC phono pre.  Unprepossessing, to say the least, little black box, all the dials you could ever want on the front, under $1800 and incredibly neutral and given to on-the-fly adjustment.  An audition may change your mind about a lot of things.  In my system it seems as invisible as I never thought possible, but if visual appeal for your friends' admiration is important, go ahead and spend more.  A lot more maybe, but likely better spent elsewhere.

Def check out Regas new MM cartridge

'Unique generator. Rega 3 point mounting system. Highly rigid lightweight PPS body. Handmade stereo cartridge. 100% recyclable packaging. Lifetime warranty against manufacture defects. Nd Magnet technology. Often used in Moving Coil designs (including our own) we believe the Nd3 is the first moving magnet to utilise a Neodymium (Nd) N55 magnet.'

@rauliruegas 

I appreciate the exchange of ideas, and while we may not see eye to eye on this matter, I respect your perspective. It seems we’ll have to agree to disagree, and that’s perfectly fine—after all, differing viewpoints are what make these discussions so engaging and valuable.

I’ve always approached this hobby with an open mind, and that mindset has served me well over the years. It’s allowed me to explore, learn, and refine my system without bias. I see no compelling reason to change an approach that continues to bring me both growth and enjoyment.

Atmasphere, Since your MP1 is inherently a high gain phono section with no need for a SUT, when have you heard it with a SUT? I know there is an option to convert the dual differential cascode input stage into a simpler dual differential input stage, in order to reduce phono gain.  Was it in such a set-up that you then inserted a SUT?

Dear @lalitk : " don’t overlook or discount the user preferences. "

" audio reproduction is highly subjective. " " Some prioritize detail and accuracy, while others value warmth and emotional engagement. "

and I can post several other statements coming from you where only confirm that your ears/subjectivity is what command your way of thinking and that’s you.

I respect your pount of view the controversy between you and me is that even today just does not understand which is my overall point of view where what I like or what could be my preference it does not matters as main target but the important main and critical target that I fail to transmit here is that I’m talking of WHAT SHOULD BE it does not matters if I like it or not ( my self ).

If what SHOULD BE does not like it in my room/system that tells me that somewhere in the room/system chain is just not " playing " rigth that something is wrong. Obviously with a good recorded LP’s, and needs to find out where and fix it.

Your 100% subjectivity can’t " compete " or be a serious challenge against some us audiophiles that some way or the other try to mantain an equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity. Atmasphere posted around that scenario in very good terms and between others gentlemans I’m thinking in @lewm and @mijostyn too.

I have to say that it’s not easy mantain those equilibrium because sometimes ( not usually ) subjectivity " has " more weigth.

Detail, accuracy, emotional and several other terms are intrinsec to the MUSIC live MUSIC, however warmth is a full subjective adjective. Live MUSIC seated at nearfield position is everything you want but warmth. Yes, recorder engineering on porpose can make the LP warmth on some tracks or MUSIC score but that does not means is rigth because that is not whatttttt Should BE. We can’t deceit the Objectivity but in the other side almost every day we are deceiting subjectivity in each one preferences. Subjectivity could change day by day depending on you mood that day however objectivity does not.

Yes, the majority of audiophiles including you just does not care of that: SHOULD BE and this is precisely what I’m talking about in this thread and other Agon threads in at least 15+ years.

All those are the differences between your posts and mine.

R.

@lalitk I was use an Atma-Sphere MP-1. Its fully balanced; when using SUTs with it they ran balanced (as any transformer can) as well.

“If the SUT is optimized for the cartridge and if its properly loaded it still will not have the bandwidth that you can get with an active phono section.”
@atmasphere

Thank you for sharing your perspective. You may be right but I intend to test your findings by a/b both setups. I have no idea what equipments were used in your test setup. When I post my findings…I will post them with every component in my signal chain.

What if they are optimized for a specific cartridge along with rest of the components? And please don’t overlook or discount the user preferences.

@lalitk I probably have a skewed perspective as I have LPs that I recorded and I have the master tapes. So I know how those LPs are supposed to sound.

If the SUT is optimized for the cartridge and if its properly loaded it still will not have the bandwidth that you can get with an active phono section.

Years ago I found out how important bandwidth in this area can be; there was a phono section that came off as quite bright in a local dealer's showroom. They had us test it; what I found was the an extra timing constant had been added to the RIAA characteristic that caused it to go flat (so a 'zero' instead of a 'pole' for all you engineering types) at 50KHz. It caused phase shift down to about 5KHz. By removing it the phono section then sounded right, as well as measured right with the inverse RIAA network I used to test it; one of those cases where you could measure and hear what was going on.

“Its that last bit that means that a lot of SUT setups are not optimized!”@atmasphere

What if they are optimized for a specific cartridge along with rest of the components? And please don’t overlook or discount the user preferences.

I also "feel" that the 3160 is the first SS phono/linestage that ever made me forget I am listening to SS. Dare I say it’s very similar in SQ to my modified MP1 (which might upset Raul but which I mean as a compliment). I love them both. As you know, this is coming from a tube OTL guy.

@lewm One of these days you might want to hear what happens when you parallel more tube sections at the input of the MP-1 phono section, and then give the gain stages a better CCS circuit.

While I understand your preference for active high-gain phono stages and recognize the strengths you’ve highlighted, I believe it’s important to acknowledge that audio reproduction is highly subjective. SUT’s may not align with your experience of optimal sound, but they can offer unique qualities that others might prefer.

@lalitk Raul is right on this one. I hate to put it this way, but what you’re talking about has to do with what you’ve heard and also what you’ve not heard. SUTs, like active electronics, are not all the same. But if you hear an active phono section that has the gain and is really competent, its a pretty good bet you’ll change your thinking.

What is probably poorly understood in general is how wide the LP bandwidth really is. Its wider than analog tape even at 30 i.p.s. and wider than digital. Its also wider than most SUTs. Its not wider than a competent phono section. Bandwidth can be really audible due to a phenomena called phase shift, which occurs at the top and bottom limits of any audio device. If the device is passive, as in the case of an SUT, phase shift components can occur up to 10x the lower cutoff frequency or down 1/10th the upper cutoff frequency if the device rolls off on a 6dB/octave slope.

The ear converts phase shift over a range of frequencies to a tonality. So subjectively you hear the limits of an SUT as a lack of bass (even if its flat to 20Hz) and a bit of a darkness in the highs. This is of course highly variable with each SUT! Something to keep in mind with SUTs is that they are transformers, and so transform impedance. What this means is that if you change the cartridge, the correct load to prevent the transformer from ringing (distorting) changes too. BTW if the SUT is ringing, it will sound brighter despite not having much bandwidth past 20KHz.

Its that last bit that means that a lot of SUT setups are not optimized!

“active high gain phono stages are way better.”

@rauliruegas

While I understand your preference for active high-gain phono stages and recognize the strengths you’ve highlighted, I believe it’s important to acknowledge that audio reproduction is highly subjective. SUT’s may not align with your experience of optimal sound, but they can offer unique qualities that others might prefer.

“optimal solution for MUSIC cartridge sound reproduction”

Our choices in gear and music are deeply personal and rooted in individual preferences, which doesn’t make us less capable of determining how music should sound—it just reinforces the idea that music reproduction is subjective. ‘Optimal’ is not a universal standard but rather what aligns with our personal vision of musicality. Some prioritize detail and accuracy, while others value warmth and emotional engagement. In the end, it’s about what moves us, not adhering to a singular definition of perfection.

While I appreciate your willingness to contribute, but I often find your approach a bit rigid and leaning heavily on the same perspectives. When someone seeks guidance, it’s crucial to explore diverse perspectives rather than defaulting to familiar responses.

When you post next time, keep in mind; encouraging exploration and informed decision-making helps everyone find what works best for their individual systems and musical preferences. A more open-minded approach could foster richer discussions and help others discover the best solutions for their unique needs.

@lewm  : Btw,I I know that SUT's sounds good ( I never posted that are really bad. I still own SUT's. ) but what I'm saying is that SUT is not the optimal solution for MUSIC cartridge sound reproduction, active high gain phono stages are way better.

R.

Atmasphere, I know that Raul is not the engineer of the Essential phonopreamps, I never felt the need to point that out. But I think he is the motive force behind their existence and the design philosophy (dual mono, balanced circuit, very clean PS, etc).  Nor has Raul ever claimed to be an EE or a designer of the gear.  I also "feel" that the 3160 is the first SS phono/linestage that ever made me forget I am listening to SS. Dare I say it's very similar in SQ to my modified MP1 (which might upset Raul but which I mean as a compliment). I love them both. As you know, this is coming from a tube OTL guy. This is purely a subjective judgement made driving my modified Atmasphere amplifiers into my modified Sound Lab PX845s. Granted also that I have never had an uber-expensive SS preamplifier in my home system.

Btw, our ears are the worst tool to make precise comparisons, that " your ears will tell you " is full of subjective with no objective single parameters it's only: " I like it " and that's all.

We shall have to agree to disagree. For what shall I have gained if I have a system that is "perfect" in theory and I don't like it? I listen to music for pleasure, and any equipment I use is in the service of the music. If that makes me a music lover rather than an audiophile to you, so be it. I still appreciate your contributions here.

In fact, the bipolar transistor that Raul et al use in the MC gain stage is out of production and was not replaced by anything as good or better for the purpose, probably because transistor evolution is not motivated by the design and build of phono stages.

@lewm to be clear, Raul had nothing to do with the engineering.

IMO, the one thing that SUTs bring to the table is immunity to the RFI that LOMC cartridges otherwise generate. SUTs simply don't have the bandwidth so they block the RFI. If your phono section has troubles with RFI being injected directly into its inputs (and many do, judging by all the phono sections out there with 'cartridge loading' switches on their front panels) The SUT seems really nice.

But I've found that if the phono section is immune to the RFI and otherwise has the gain needed, it will simply be more transparent. Transformers inherently introduce distortion and bandwidth limitations, usually having less bandwidth than the LP itself.

Raul, I never owned a Supex. I heard it at my neighbor’s house when he first bought it, probably in 1974-5. I was not impressed, and it was a few more decades before I ever bought an LOMC cartridge, after having experimented unhappily with HOMCs. By the time you initiated your thread on MM cartridges, I was operating in the belief that LOMC cartridges were tops. Thanks for stimulating me to re-think the cartridge issue.

dogberry, "I'm just a gal [guy] who can't say no", so I will acquiesce. I was going strictly on my musical memory of that show. Actually, this morning in the twilight of wakening, I wondered whether the lyric was "cowhand", rather than "cowman".  Cowhand is more likely correct. Curly had issues. Anyway, the corn here is as high as an elephant's eye.

Dear @lewm : All SUT's have more or less the same " problems " and all degrades de cartridge signal including the EMIA because all needs those additional IC cables, input/output connectors, solder joints and the like.

Your Supex cartridge in those old time was designed by today MSL Matshudira.

@dogberry   active high gain phono stages/phonolinepreamps have a price tag range from 3K to 90K+ ..That's is a wide price range for you or any one else. Btw, our ears are the worst tool to make precise comparisons, that " your ears will tell you " is full of subjective with no objective single parameters it's only: " I like it " and that's all.

First you have to have the best cartridge signal reproduction you can and the you will listen it and to achieve that " best " signal reproduction you need objectivity a bout and common sense if not then you have the " I like it ".

Many of us are in the analog/digital audio world because we truly love MUSIC and achieving the best reproduction not only gives us a very high MUSIC enjoyment but a lot of added fun. In the other side there are the gentlemans that mainly does not cares of quality reproduction of MUSIC but mainly only just for fun even if that you ask to them they will tell you that are " music lovers ".

R.

I think that's a direct quote from "Oklahoma", music by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

Almost - the song says "should be friends." And my reply (It's a scandal! It's a outrage!) is another song from the same musical.

Guys who favor SETs often use SUTs, in my experience.  Maybe it's about the similar acronyms. Anyway, I apologize for questioning your logic. I started 50 years ago by realizing I love ESLs, then worked backward from the speakers to what amplifier drives them best, and etc.

Never seen a Modwright phono stage, inside or outside.  I am guessing you think it is more complex than an Aric MM stage, about which I also know nothing.

@lewm 

Have you seen what's inside the Modwright compared to Aric's MM stage?

Always trying to simplify the signal path which is why I run SETs.

I think that's a direct quote from "Oklahoma", music by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

“Your ears will tell you”

@dogberry

I couldn’t agree more…at the end of the day, your ears, your system and listening skills should be the ultimate arbitrator. There is no shortage of gear to choose from and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

It’s best to ignore people with a mindset …my way or the highway.

The farmer and the cowhand can be friends.

It maybe true that well-made high-gain MC phono stages outshine an SUT. All I can say is that an SUT sounds better than the MC phono stages I have at hand. So unless I win the lottery (more unlikely than ever since I do not take part in the "tax on the mathematically impaired"), I'll make do. Your ears will tell you if you are in the same boat as me.

Keep in mind that I have chosen to use high gain phono stages for LOMC cartridges, but not based on principle, based on listening to the particular phono stages I've chosen.

flattire, I am not sure what is your point in saying you will choose an MM phono stage plus SUT over your Modwright as a form of "simplification".  Were you using the Modwright with no SUT previously, owing to its high gain?  If so, I fail to understand why the conversion to an MM phono stage plus SUT can be viewed as a simplification.  You may prefer it, and all that, but why is it simpler?

@lalitk 

Little chance of that.  Just going by what I read and some youtube reviews.

I got his Custom 2A3/45 and really like it so I'm going by that also.

Lack of head to head comparisons is holding me back.

Maybe Aric can talk me into it.

@theflattire 

I hope you get a chance to audition Aric Audio’s MM before committing to buying. 

“I have heard some systems of very high quality that incorporated SUTs, really good ones designed and built by Dave Slagle of EMIA, that were very satisfying”

@lewm 

Thanks for your sharing your experience. You obviously have been at this game longer than me, so your opinion matters to me. In upcoming months, I am going to decide which approach yields the best possible sound within the scope of my system. No matter what I end up keeping, it’s going to be lot of learning and I hope to have some fun along the way. 

Right now, I am anxiously waiting to take possession of a MM/MC tube phono from Japan. It appears to be well built, uses my favorite tubes (12AX7 or ECC803S) and have an option to select between Low and High gain for MC Cart.  

I'm thinking of selling my Modwright PH9.0 and going with Aric Audio's MM stage.

Simplify the signal path and all that.

I have a Hashimoto SUT.

I think I posted earlier that the first time I became aware of MC cartridges was in the mid 70s, when the Supex cartridge came into the US market. The problem was that few of the existing phono stages had sufficient gain. Within no more than a year of the introduction of the Supex, Mark Levinson (and John Curl) introduced the first ML product, the JC1, which was a pre-preamplifier or "head amp". It was a little solid state box that simply added gain to boost the output of the Supex and I suppose other LOMCs that may have already been available. In my memory, living in Connecticut at the time, I had not yet heard or read about any SUT, but I am sure that the Japanese were ahead of us in that department, at that time. ML was just a kid then based in Woodbridge, CT, outside New Haven where I grew up. That’s the way I remember it. The Supex was highly praised by TAS and Harry Pearson. When later I heard one, I thought it was mediocre at best, certainly not as good as my favorite MM and MI cartridges, at that time.

I have never owned a SUT, but I have heard some systems of very high quality that incorporated SUTs, really good ones designed and built by Dave Slagle of EMIA, that were very satisfying. Nothing to criticize there.