Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

Dear @theflattire  :  Uesugi was made it by TEAC and looking ist frequency rsponse deviaiton level of +1db  -0.5db I seriously doubt that Tamura was invloved down there ( Tamura was a lot better in several ways. )

 

"Tokyo Electro Acoustic Company (TEAC)
A big Japanese manufacturer of audio, video & instrumentation hardware. Makes consumer equipment and computer components under the TEAC name, semi-pro and professional audio and video equipment under the Tascam name and high end audio under the Esoteric and Uesugi brands. "

 

As you said probably only a " rumor ". I own true Tamura SUT and were in the vintage times a expensive ones and not like the Uesugi at 88K Yens. 

Look, I´m not saying is a bad SUT.

 

R.

@lalitk   : "" 

But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. ........

With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preference ""

 

It's better an equalizer than any tube rolling strategy.

 

R.

I really sorry.

 

R.

Dear @lalitk : A subjective learning approach and the objective one both have its own limits where at that limit point one approach needs a help by the other and then looking with both approaches we not only learn but in true can grow up in favor of our enjoyment and in favor of the quality levels of the MUSIC LP reproduction.

Normally the gentlemans that go with only the subjective approach to take decisions are just followers of other audiophiles that have same stand alone subjective approach with out be aware of that limit point.

With all respect I think that in this specific SUT issue your approach stays at its limit and with you just can’t elevate the quality analog reproduction in your room/system and my take here is that you need to show to your self ( not to other audiophiles including me. ) that open mind you are talking about.

If we mix subjective and objective know-how/skills each one us will take way better audio decisions always along that we are really investing our money instead to just spend it.

In this thread you already have almost all the objective true reasons why don’t use a SUT and why is better for the cartridge signal MUSIC a high gain active units.

R.

@lewm  : Other critical issue is its noise measured level for MC that's lower than 70db. Well you can't ask a lot more at that low market price.

 

R.

Dear @lalitk : " don’t overlook or discount the user preferences. "

" audio reproduction is highly subjective. " " Some prioritize detail and accuracy, while others value warmth and emotional engagement. "

and I can post several other statements coming from you where only confirm that your ears/subjectivity is what command your way of thinking and that’s you.

 

I respect your pount of view the controversy between you and me is that even today just does not understand which is my overall point of view where what I like or what could be my preference it does not matters as main target but the important main and critical target that I fail to transmit here is that I’m talking of WHAT SHOULD BE it does not matters if I like it or not ( my self ).

If what SHOULD BE does not like it in my room/system that tells me that somewhere in the room/system chain is just not " playing " rigth that something is wrong. Obviously with a good recorded LP’s, and needs to find out where and fix it.

Your 100% subjectivity can’t " compete " or be a serious challenge against some us audiophiles that some way or the other try to mantain an equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity. Atmasphere posted around that scenario in very good terms and between others gentlemans I’m thinking in @lewm and @mijostyn too.

I have to say that it’s not easy mantain those equilibrium because sometimes ( not usually ) subjectivity " has " more weigth.

 

Detail, accuracy, emotional and several other terms are intrinsec to the MUSIC live MUSIC, however warmth is a full subjective adjective. Live MUSIC seated at nearfield position is everything you want but warmth. Yes, recorder engineering on porpose can make the LP warmth on some tracks or MUSIC score but that does not means is rigth because that is not whatttttt Should BE. We can’t deceit the Objectivity but in the other side almost every day we are deceiting subjectivity in each one preferences. Subjectivity could change day by day depending on you mood that day however objectivity does not.

 

Yes, the majority of audiophiles including you just does not care of that: SHOULD BE and this is precisely what I’m talking about in this thread and other Agon threads in at least 15+ years.

All those are the differences between your posts and mine.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

@lewm  : Btw,I I know that SUT's sounds good ( I never posted that are really bad. I still own SUT's. ) but what I'm saying is that SUT is not the optimal solution for MUSIC cartridge sound reproduction, active high gain phono stages are way better.

 

R.

Dear @lewm : All SUT's have more or less the same " problems " and all degrades de cartridge signal including the EMIA because all needs those additional IC cables, input/output connectors, solder joints and the like.

 

Your Supex cartridge in those old time was designed by today MSL Matshudira.

 

@dogberry   active high gain phono stages/phonolinepreamps have a price tag range from 3K to 90K+ ..That's is a wide price range for you or any one else. Btw, our ears are the worst tool to make precise comparisons, that " your ears will tell you " is full of subjective with no objective single parameters it's only: " I like it " and that's all.

First you have to have the best cartridge signal reproduction you can and the you will listen it and to achieve that " best " signal reproduction you need objectivity a bout and common sense if not then you have the " I like it ".

Many of us are in the analog/digital audio world because we truly love MUSIC and achieving the best reproduction not only gives us a very high MUSIC enjoyment but a lot of added fun. In the other side there are the gentlemans that mainly does not cares of quality reproduction of MUSIC but mainly only just for fun even if that you ask to them they will tell you that are " music lovers ".

R.

Dear @lalitk : " explore and experience the two most prolific ways to get that sensitive MC signal to the phono stage. "

I know the issue is not a " tiresome " debate however what you post and posted technically is not true it’s false or have severe misunderstood. Example:

 

" customized SUT can offer unique advantages in sound reproduction, especially if you’re aiming for transparency and musicality without coloration. "

Look customized or not has no single advantages and be customized is another

disadvantagedue that you can only play with that cartridge or some extremely similar cartridge.

 

Other example:

 

" what others have experienced; elevated level of high performance that can come from integrating a customized SUT + MM phono stage. "

 

Elevated level of high performance, this statement is false too or untrue along that what others listened is/are in way different room/systems and with different MUSIC/sound priorities and some in reality don’t cares deep on MUSIC and its reproduction as you want it.

 

Other example:

 

" MM stage typically has lower gain requirements compared to an MC (Moving Coil) stage, which can lead to a quieter noise floor. By using a quality SUT, the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference. "

 

Technically those information is untrue too. Maybe 10 years ago and depending of the SS whole design phono stages the differences in noise floor were around 6db between MC and MM not today. In our unit and at high gain ( yje worst scenario ) difference between MC and MM noise level is lower than 1db and the noise level is way over 80db: you can’t detect or be aware of that kind of dead noise levels and in any way affects the cartridge signal in the active SS units.

 

Now I will try to explain additional information we need to know:

 

Do you know why exist the SUT even that it’s not the optimal aternative for a LOMC cartridge’? :

 

When MC cartridges started to be offered to the analog market just does not existed SS Active High Gain phono stages even all the LOMC manufacturers offered the cartridge and their SUT as its couple and that’s why exist so many vintage good SUTs designs as : Ortofon, Fidelity Research, Audio Note, Pioneer, Entré, Technics, Final, Audio Technica, Excel, Denon, Yamaha, Koetsu, Supex Micro Seiki, Luxman, Dynavector and many others and some of them not only compete with any and I say any today SUT but outperforms it.

In those old times the SS phono stages came with integrated SUT in the circuit board till started to appears the SS and a few tube active high gain phono stages but the audiophiles were accustom to SUT not because were better but because were just accustom too and I have to say that the first Active High Gain phono stages were not at today very high quality levels.

 

 

" the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference. " "

 

First the SUT is really an active unit because " react " to the cartridge input signal it’s not passively as you think.

 

Reliance on active electronics? really? that’s not exactly true but a mistake for your part and NO the SUT been active the its signal IT IS NOT CLEANER AND NOT MORE REFINED than an SS active high gain designs.

In those all is common sense and I already posted more than one time that the true short cartridge signal path in active SS unit is way way superior to all the added obstacles with external ( any ) SUTs.

 

Again any additional link to the cartridge signal CAN NOT NEVER IMPROVE THE CARTRIDGE SIGNAL IN ANY WAY AND ONLY CAN DEGRADES THAT LOVELY CARTRIDGE SIGNAL.

 

This is not rocket science. Please only think in this post, is all what you need.

 

Yes, I respect what you want and I’m only trying to help you. If you accept this kind of help is up to yoo and remember that this is not about me but about to favor the cartridge signal MUSIC.

 

And please remember the true technically and pragmatic severe frequency response range LIMITATIONS where against an active SS unit you can't have more transparency, nuances pr complete signal because those severe FR LIMITATIONS in any SUT dedicated or not.

 

R.

 

 

 

Hi @lalitk  :  I could think that you have very good reasons ( foundation. ) in favor of the MUSIC reproduction quality sound levels to look for a MM phono stage + SUT main/prefered alternative.

 

Which advantages comes with that alternative ?  what , some of us, are not seen down there or what are we missing about quality level reproduction?

 

Thank's in advance,

R.

 

 

@lalitk   " in one off bespoke products."

 

Some way or the other at some time all audio products are " bespoke ", some through audio distributors  some as direct sale.That's why exist the customer testimonials of all audio products.

 

" suggesting a product that pretty much unobtainable. "

 

Not really because is obtainable and through it the Etsuro signal could goes " directly " to the Accuphase amplifier with no single " curtains " in between but only the MUSIC cartridge signal.

Just for curiosity you can achieve information here:

 rauliruegas@hotmail.com.

 

R.

 

 

Thank's @lewm   .

 

R.

Btw, @lewm   : Do you think that the DAS parts and box can have a price of 19.K as is its price tag?  I know you don't and

Certainly not, maybe 5k and the other 14K-!5K where are?. Obviously inside the designer/manufacturer knowledge levels and skills and if you open  the FM Acoustics you can say: hey where are the 120K that I paid for both units ( phono and line )?  because not you but no-sense gentlemans could say no more than 10K down there but it's the Manuel Huber knowledge/skills who puts him There and between other unit/design characteristics " things " like these:

 

""" 

• Ultra linear balanced line drivers: no more matching problems of cables and electronics.
• Entire unit uses discrete circuitry of proprietary enhanced Class A design: no signal-degrading IC’s, transformers, hybrid circuits, tubes or op-amps.
• Hand-selected, high-precision matched components of DIN, IEC & MIL standard secure accuracy and long-term stability.
• Performance without equal. The technology, circuitry and manufacturing methods are proprietary to FM ACOUSTICS.
• The ultimate solution for restoration work, mastering studios, libraries and dedicated record collectors.  """"
•  

 

R.

@lewm   :  Obviously I know the owner who offered the 3160 for 3K in USA. He is avery kind Asian Deargentleman who all his life was and is accustomed  to certain kind of color in MUSIC LP reproduction ( not the natural color that comes in live MUSIC. ) and with a way of thinking a little different from non Asian audiophiles.

Yes he had tube electronics but 17 year ago he was in " shock "/surprised by the Essential 3160 that's a " non-signature " quality level performance other than the natural color of what's in the LP recording. He was waiting for a deep transistor signature that could be to agressive to his like but was not that way and he had the unit for several years and yes it has today tubes. He never mentioned to me that could exist some kind of quality performance characteristics where he dislike and when I talk with him about he just told me that the new phono is what he needs.

 

Now, just from the begining with the Essential 3150 till today our alternative to handled MC cartridges gain stage needs to be through bipolar devices because it satisfied best the MC electrical needs as MM are better served by FETs, this not means that we can't use FETs in the MC stage because we can do it but our choice about it does not changes yet over time.

 

You are rigth when posted that soliid state active electronic devices ( other than OP-Amps. ) that over the last 20 years in true there were  really no high improvements especially with bipolars used in phono stages, FETs has some " news " in this regards.

The major changes in the solid state electronics designs came with the SMD passive parts  that permits lower noise levels and circuit boards " size " but the SMD has a limitation against the true hole passive parts and is its temperature limits where can works.

 

When designers/manufacturers as the ones top Phono Stages has a NEW model in reality ( this is our experiences with FM Acoustics, J.Curl Vendetta Research, Boulder and the like. ) is not a totally new design because the units designed before where really " statements " of product and in the " new " ones the foundation of the design came and comes from that first unit and only change the approach in the new unit design with some design improvements " here and there " that the customers can hear: the overall new unit has ( not and day differences. ) better quality level performance with out losted the main design characteristics from where it came/comes. The  Blowtorch  unit is an example of those: the whole design of that Phono Stage were made by 3 different and touted designers where the " job "  of J.Curl was the phono electronics design where he took as design foundation his Vendetta Research  he did not " invented " a totally new design.

Yes, as in the began the 3180 still is a PhonoLinePreamp ( 2 independent active phono stages and 1 line preamp. All fully balanced and true dual mono. ) because if in any part of a home system we need a very special kind of sinergy/harmony/in sync/in tune is just there between the Phono Stage design and the Line stage design along its active/passive parts.

There we don't want a MIX of different " colors " between Phono Stage and Line Stage because is not good in anyway ( in a good designs ) to the MUSIC and the MUSIC reproduction.

LP reproduced MUSIC must and has to sound as the MUSIC score that was recorded in the same VENUE to achieve the same kind of instruments Transients Response.

That and no matter what can't be  acomplished  with separate Phono Stage and Line Stage coming from different " manufacturers/designers. We need to take care of that cartridge signal extreme fragility to avoid at maximum its degradation. We care of system hardware where really matters.

Yes, for us both units most be integrated but this is only us and other gentlemans have their own way of thinking and MUSIC enjoyment.

 

R.

 

Dear @scar972 : Levinson founded Cello in the mid 80's ( I think ). I had the opportunity to listen his amp Duet and the Audio Suite with its integrated phono stage board ( the AS was a modular design for the customers choice what they need.) and I listened too his equalizer Pallete. Cello made it too speakers but I never listen too and obviously he designed what was and maybe is one of the 3 best ever open reel machines the :  ML-5a ( half inch.Well in its times was considered the ONE the BEST ).

However when he was/still working at Levinson company the " brain designer ", with out dimishining Mark in any way was J.Curl. I still own the 20.6 monobloks based in J.Curl design and I think that some Agon audiophiles remember the Vendetta Research phono stage that JC designed when he left Levinson/Madrigal

company and latter on his Blowtorch pohono stage too.

 

In the electronics today Parasound the JC models were and are J.Curl designs.

R.

 

 

Dear @scar972 : : Angelo and Levinson designed in those old times Cello electronics and both never were to good phono designers . Cello/Levinson amplifiers is other matter and very good ones.

The FR vintage SUT was and is only an average/mediocre unit from those times when in those times Denon, Audio Technica, Entré, Sony or Tachnics and others were at the top and I owned almost but the top Technics as afact I still own what for me is the best SUT ever Denon 1000, I own too an Entré and other Denon 340.

 

You own a just first rate room/system but that could not means that you are rigth about the phono/Sut because IMHO you are not and I agree with @lewm in this specific regards. Yes, that’s what you like and I think that you have to listen to a top today active high gain SS phonolinepreamp  and compare too vs live MUSIC seated at near field .position.

 

R.

 

Dear @lalitk  : Just in september you posted this:

 

" My modest but carefully chosen collection of recordings shined through the foursome of 301, 3P, Bordeaux and H-6500. They allowed music to simply breathe, quiet passages were intimate and louder sections just as impactful without any distortion. The tonal balance was also impeccable, ensuring that no frequency range dominates or feels lacking, bass was tight and controlled, revealing subtle details and nuances that enhances our emotional connection to the music. "

 

What changes your mind of thinking in this short time ?  For that post you was " impressed " with that chain in your system.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTOTIONS,

R.