@noromance
I wasn’t impressed by Allnic H-6500. Surprisingly, my phono board in Accuphase Integrated sounded just as good as H-6500. Not sure, how much better H-7000 would be. Another observation, Allnic seems to have a very poor resale which somewhat deters me to consider buying new from dealer.
@kennyc
I am seeking suggestions on MM phono ahead of SUT. I am pretty much set on my choice as far as SUT. My dealer is sending over EMIA copper SUT to try out with my existing phono. In any case case, I will check out WBF. Thanks!
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“Why do you say Allnic has poor resale value?”
@lewm
My earlier comment was based on sales data off USAM.
@larryi
I wouldn’t consider a SUT that is not specifically wound for my Bordeaux cartridge. Anything less than optimal in this application would be a worthless endeavor.
@drewdawg999
Thank you for your recommendation. I will check it out!
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“Do Allnic components sell used at a bigger discount off the retail cost, compared to other major high end brands?”
@lewm
That’s my assessment! In any case, Allnic phono sound and synergy with rest of my components did not exceed my expectations.
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What changed?
@lewm
Let me clarify further, after extensive listening sessions with H-6500, I couldn’t justify its price. While H-6500 sounded good, it was not substantially better than my phono board in Accuphase Integrated. The phono board in Accuphase Integrated is pretty darn good and I am now using it as my benchmark. If I am investing in an outboard phono, it should handily beat my current phono and justify the extra spend, right?
With SUT on the way, I wanted to accumulate MM phono recommendations to pity against my Accuphase phono. Again, SUT is a consideration spend and it would be prudent to try this option atleast with one or more outboard MM phono to make a proper assessment. Another reason for phono search is to accommodate my 2nd tonearm which will be used with a mono or stereo cart. You may know, I am getting my plinth built from Woodsong with dual arm boards.
I may end up with two phono’s to accommodate two arms or one that gives me everything I am looking for…I am hoping to accomplish this task with help of knowledgeable members like yourself.
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“this SUT”
@scar972
What is the brand name / model of your SUT ?
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@psf4972
Thank you for your recommendation. I have heard of Abbas DAC’s, nothing but high praises all around, I will definitely keep in mind when I am ready to pull the trigger.
@moonwatcher - Thank you!
@j-wall I agree, Buying Allnic on used market is a good value. What took me by surprise is their very linear sound despite of all the tubes, H-6500 sound nothing like a tube component. I think it’s intentional by design as designer doesn’t want end users to hear any coloration which kinda makes sense. I am honestly spoiled by Shindo Labs, nothing else has come close to sounding that heavenly as my Monbrison preamp.
@scar972
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am hoping to hear next level performance by inserting a properly matched SUT. It’s a work in progress:-)
Thank you for your recommendation for Andros. It’s reasonably priced and uses my favorite tubes, NOS Telefunken or Mullard’s comes to mind to further tweak the sound.
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I just came across Mola Mola Lupe that seems to check all the boxes for me. From technical standpoint, discrete Class A gain stages designed exclusively for MC and MM peaked my interest. And there is IOS app that allows easy controls individual channel phase, mono or stereo output, and the subsonic filter. Not to mention, 4 fully programmable inputs. I am leaning towards Lupe until someone throws a curveball..LOL
Going to get one for audition before Christmas.
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@lewm
There is more to Lupe design than just Class A gain stages. There may be other phonos taking the similar approach as Lupe but most phono preamplifiers designed both for moving magnet and moving coil operation use one gain stage to amplify MM cartridge output, with a second gain stage daisy-chained to the first in order to provide the additional amplification required by low-output MC cartridges.
The Mola Mola Lupe differs by having two entirely separate Class A gain stages, one designed exclusively for MM cartridges, the second just for MC. Both are fully discrete designs and are followed by an active analogue filter. The filter uses relays to switch capacitance and resistance in and out to achieve the different time constant values and, thereby, EQ curves.
Can you tell me another phono that takes same design approach as Lupe?
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@pindac
I couldn’t agree with you anymore. It is through our own experiences, we achieve the perfect outcome desirable to our ears and preferences.
@worksbau
Thanks for sharing your experience with Miyajima. I will definitely keep that in mind and share with my dealer. Fono Labs SUT is also on my radar as I did converse with Fono Labs senior engineer. He has been very helpful in answering my questions. If you don’t mind, please do share your experience with MSL Eminent Solo and a Fonolab Pacto.
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@worksbau
Thank you again for sharing your impressions of MSL and Fono Lab SUT. I do believe adding customized SUT’s would optimize performance of both carts. Your post has been most helpful and inspiring. I am few months away from everything coming together singing in perfect harmony.
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All this fuss over a phono which is pretty much unobtainable 🙄
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@lewm
Thank you for your recommendation on DSA. I will read up on its potential in my system. No offense but I will never consider buying a one off product due to my past experience. I lost over $11K in one such product :-(
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“Strategic Product Placement comes to mind with the help of a friend or two.”@pindac
I couldn’t agree with you more, it certainly appears that way!
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@lewm
Perhaps, you’re reading too much into this. I made it very clear that I’m not interested in one off bespoke products. Frankly, I did not quite understand the value in suggesting a product that pretty much unobtainable. My last comment was directed towards what ensued afterwards. A series of posts about 3160 / 3180 that has nothing to do with discussion on hand.
Please enlighten me how’s your back n forth banter with @pindac relevant or helpful to discussion on hand?
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@ricco275
Thanks for your recommendation. Whest Audio is now added to my audition list.
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@rauliruegas
That’s a great question.
Pursuance of a high-quality MM phono stage paired with a customized SUT can offer unique advantages in sound reproduction, especially if you’re aiming for transparency and musicality without coloration.
I am not saying, you can’t achieve transparency and musicality with a phono that offers both MC/MM option. There are lot of phonos with MM/MC options that are capable of high performance.
I am currently using a phono board in my Accuphase SS Integrated, which offers a pretty darn good sound. This phono board has set the bar pretty high, one may attribute its gorgeous sound to the shortest signal path and/or its natural synergy.
The next thing in my journey is to experience what others have experienced; elevated level of high performance that can come from integrating a customized SUT + MM phono stage.
Firstly, MM stage typically has lower gain requirements compared to an MC (Moving Coil) stage, which can lead to a quieter noise floor. By using a quality SUT, the low-level output of an MC cartridge is boosted passively, reducing the reliance on active electronics in the phono stage. This can result in a cleaner, more refined signal that’s less prone to noise and interference.
Secondly, a well-designed SUT provides natural impedance matching between the MC cartridge and the phono stage, which can preserve the cartridge’s dynamic range and transient response. This often translates into a sound that feels livelier, more dynamic, and musically engaging, capturing the nuances in rhythm and tonal shifts. With a good SUT, you can potentially achieve a seamless synergy that may be challenging to find in a typical active MC phono stage.
Lastly, I don’t want our conversation to turn into a tiresome debate so please keep in mind, this is my journey and I would like to explore and experience the two most prolific ways to get that sensitive MC signal to the phono stage.
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@lewm
SUTs are far from perfect, and each introduces its own unique set of compromises. Transformers too come with intrinsic limitations, and the choices in materials, core design, and winding configurations have significant sonic impact.
This is probably why well-engineered SUTs command high prices—they attempt to push their physical limitations as far as possible. In a sense, every SUT’s design is a balancing act between trade-offs, and some listeners value the character that each transformer’s unique “flaws” can bring to the sound.
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“I have heard some systems of very high quality that incorporated SUTs, really good ones designed and built by Dave Slagle of EMIA, that were very satisfying”
@lewm
Thanks for your sharing your experience. You obviously have been at this game longer than me, so your opinion matters to me. In upcoming months, I am going to decide which approach yields the best possible sound within the scope of my system. No matter what I end up keeping, it’s going to be lot of learning and I hope to have some fun along the way.
Right now, I am anxiously waiting to take possession of a MM/MC tube phono from Japan. It appears to be well built, uses my favorite tubes (12AX7 or ECC803S) and have an option to select between Low and High gain for MC Cart.
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@theflattire
I hope you get a chance to audition Aric Audio’s MM before committing to buying.
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“Your ears will tell you”
@dogberry
I couldn’t agree more…at the end of the day, your ears, your system and listening skills should be the ultimate arbitrator. There is no shortage of gear to choose from and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
It’s best to ignore people with a mindset …my way or the highway.
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“active high gain phono stages are way better.”
@rauliruegas
While I understand your preference for active high-gain phono stages and recognize the strengths you’ve highlighted, I believe it’s important to acknowledge that audio reproduction is highly subjective. SUT’s may not align with your experience of optimal sound, but they can offer unique qualities that others might prefer.
“optimal solution for MUSIC cartridge sound reproduction”
Our choices in gear and music are deeply personal and rooted in individual preferences, which doesn’t make us less capable of determining how music should sound—it just reinforces the idea that music reproduction is subjective. ‘Optimal’ is not a universal standard but rather what aligns with our personal vision of musicality. Some prioritize detail and accuracy, while others value warmth and emotional engagement. In the end, it’s about what moves us, not adhering to a singular definition of perfection.
While I appreciate your willingness to contribute, but I often find your approach a bit rigid and leaning heavily on the same perspectives. When someone seeks guidance, it’s crucial to explore diverse perspectives rather than defaulting to familiar responses.
When you post next time, keep in mind; encouraging exploration and informed decision-making helps everyone find what works best for their individual systems and musical preferences. A more open-minded approach could foster richer discussions and help others discover the best solutions for their unique needs.
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“Its that last bit that means that a lot of SUT setups are not optimized!”@atmasphere
What if they are optimized for a specific cartridge along with rest of the components? And please don’t overlook or discount the user preferences.
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“If the SUT is optimized for the cartridge and if its properly loaded it still will not have the bandwidth that you can get with an active phono section.”
@atmasphere
Thank you for sharing your perspective. You may be right but I intend to test your findings by a/b both setups. I have no idea what equipments were used in your test setup. When I post my findings…I will post them with every component in my signal chain.
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@rauliruegas
I appreciate the exchange of ideas, and while we may not see eye to eye on this matter, I respect your perspective. It seems we’ll have to agree to disagree, and that’s perfectly fine—after all, differing viewpoints are what make these discussions so engaging and valuable.
I’ve always approached this hobby with an open mind, and that mindset has served me well over the years. It’s allowed me to explore, learn, and refine my system without bias. I see no compelling reason to change an approach that continues to bring me both growth and enjoyment.
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@rauliruegas
I tried to find a middle ground with you and that was clearly a mistake on my part. You’ve got me beat on the stubbornness front :-)
Peace!
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Update: I haven’t found Leben or Accuphase on used market yet but I did find a hidden gem straight from Japan. After spending a week, I am in complete ‘awe’ with this amazing phono that is allowing me to appreciate and enjoy my record collection at another level.
With permalloy core wound transformer on board for Low and High MC and MM cartridges, Softone Model 4 proving its existence to be a worthy stablemate for my Etsuro Bordeaux (0.25mV). And a pair of 12AX7 aboard gives me plenty of drive to tube roll in very near future.
Anyone looking for a tube phono under $1K should check out this phono. It’s a screaming bargain!
http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm
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@lewm
The distinction between gain and drive is crucial, especially in circuits where driving low-impedance loads or handling higher current demands comes into play.
But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. I can understand your confusion since you’re not into tube rolling..LOL!
With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preferences. Since the 12AX7 is so widely used, there’s a treasure trove of options out there, from vintage classics like Telefunken and Mullard to modern production from brands like Gold Lion or JJ.
Cheers!
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Softone Model 4 phono continues to improve and today marked a noticeable shift in sound, rendering more relaxed and mesmerizing sound.
Listening to “When Your Love Is Gone” from Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson - 45RPM….gave me goose bumps. This is easily one of finest performance of Ben’s career…wish there was repeat mode on my TT :-)
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@lewm
Your point duly noted!
In essence, tube rolling is as much about understanding circuit design as it is about personal taste. The idea of swapping tubes to enhance a particular sound can be fun and rewarding, but it’s important to recognize that tube aging, expectation bias, and circuit compatibility are all major factors that can impact the perceived results.
I agree with you on being selective about the type of tube to choose for a specific role is far more critical than simply choosing the most exotic or expensive tube, and in many cases, this can lead to better results than relying on the often subjective differences between brands of the same type.
For now, I am just letting Model 4 play out with stock tubes and keeping my eyes peeled for NOS tube options.
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@theflattire
Thanks for the mention. Yes, SUT’s option still very much under consideration. It will happen, just not sure of the timeline. Looking more like early next year.
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