Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

“Its that last bit that means that a lot of SUT setups are not optimized!”@atmasphere

What if they are optimized for a specific cartridge along with rest of the components? And please don’t overlook or discount the user preferences.

What if they are optimized for a specific cartridge along with rest of the components? And please don’t overlook or discount the user preferences.

@lalitk I probably have a skewed perspective as I have LPs that I recorded and I have the master tapes. So I know how those LPs are supposed to sound.

If the SUT is optimized for the cartridge and if its properly loaded it still will not have the bandwidth that you can get with an active phono section.

Years ago I found out how important bandwidth in this area can be; there was a phono section that came off as quite bright in a local dealer's showroom. They had us test it; what I found was the an extra timing constant had been added to the RIAA characteristic that caused it to go flat (so a 'zero' instead of a 'pole' for all you engineering types) at 50KHz. It caused phase shift down to about 5KHz. By removing it the phono section then sounded right, as well as measured right with the inverse RIAA network I used to test it; one of those cases where you could measure and hear what was going on.

“If the SUT is optimized for the cartridge and if its properly loaded it still will not have the bandwidth that you can get with an active phono section.”
@atmasphere

Thank you for sharing your perspective. You may be right but I intend to test your findings by a/b both setups. I have no idea what equipments were used in your test setup. When I post my findings…I will post them with every component in my signal chain.

@lalitk I was use an Atma-Sphere MP-1. Its fully balanced; when using SUTs with it they ran balanced (as any transformer can) as well.

Dear @lalitk : " don’t overlook or discount the user preferences. "

" audio reproduction is highly subjective. " " Some prioritize detail and accuracy, while others value warmth and emotional engagement. "

and I can post several other statements coming from you where only confirm that your ears/subjectivity is what command your way of thinking and that’s you.

I respect your pount of view the controversy between you and me is that even today just does not understand which is my overall point of view where what I like or what could be my preference it does not matters as main target but the important main and critical target that I fail to transmit here is that I’m talking of WHAT SHOULD BE it does not matters if I like it or not ( my self ).

If what SHOULD BE does not like it in my room/system that tells me that somewhere in the room/system chain is just not " playing " rigth that something is wrong. Obviously with a good recorded LP’s, and needs to find out where and fix it.

Your 100% subjectivity can’t " compete " or be a serious challenge against some us audiophiles that some way or the other try to mantain an equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity. Atmasphere posted around that scenario in very good terms and between others gentlemans I’m thinking in @lewm and @mijostyn too.

I have to say that it’s not easy mantain those equilibrium because sometimes ( not usually ) subjectivity " has " more weigth.

Detail, accuracy, emotional and several other terms are intrinsec to the MUSIC live MUSIC, however warmth is a full subjective adjective. Live MUSIC seated at nearfield position is everything you want but warmth. Yes, recorder engineering on porpose can make the LP warmth on some tracks or MUSIC score but that does not means is rigth because that is not whatttttt Should BE. We can’t deceit the Objectivity but in the other side almost every day we are deceiting subjectivity in each one preferences. Subjectivity could change day by day depending on you mood that day however objectivity does not.

Yes, the majority of audiophiles including you just does not care of that: SHOULD BE and this is precisely what I’m talking about in this thread and other Agon threads in at least 15+ years.

All those are the differences between your posts and mine.

R.

Atmasphere, Since your MP1 is inherently a high gain phono section with no need for a SUT, when have you heard it with a SUT? I know there is an option to convert the dual differential cascode input stage into a simpler dual differential input stage, in order to reduce phono gain.  Was it in such a set-up that you then inserted a SUT?

@rauliruegas 

I appreciate the exchange of ideas, and while we may not see eye to eye on this matter, I respect your perspective. It seems we’ll have to agree to disagree, and that’s perfectly fine—after all, differing viewpoints are what make these discussions so engaging and valuable.

I’ve always approached this hobby with an open mind, and that mindset has served me well over the years. It’s allowed me to explore, learn, and refine my system without bias. I see no compelling reason to change an approach that continues to bring me both growth and enjoyment.

Def check out Regas new MM cartridge

'Unique generator. Rega 3 point mounting system. Highly rigid lightweight PPS body. Handmade stereo cartridge. 100% recyclable packaging. Lifetime warranty against manufacture defects. Nd Magnet technology. Often used in Moving Coil designs (including our own) we believe the Nd3 is the first moving magnet to utilise a Neodymium (Nd) N55 magnet.'

I'm throwing in a vote for Barry Thornton's Austin Audio Black Swan MM/MC phono pre.  Unprepossessing, to say the least, little black box, all the dials you could ever want on the front, under $1800 and incredibly neutral and given to on-the-fly adjustment.  An audition may change your mind about a lot of things.  In my system it seems as invisible as I never thought possible, but if visual appeal for your friends' admiration is important, go ahead and spend more.  A lot more maybe, but likely better spent elsewhere.

On the Black Swan, the capacitor loading switch on the right (per the photo on the website) is labeled in uF (microfarads). That means if you select 0.22, for example, you are loading the cartridge with 220,000 picofarads (10 to the -12 Farads).  There is no way that would be advisable for any type of cartridge, so I assume the label of the control is just wrong OR that is not a control for phono load.  The capacitor load selector on the left makes sense for an MM type. Also, with all the gain options, it's too bad that 60db is the max phono gain for an MC, and I am kind of curious why so many load options for MM, but no 47K option, although 50K is close enough.

@lewm  : Other critical issue is its noise measured level for MC that's lower than 70db. Well you can't ask a lot more at that low market price.

R.

Dear @lalitk : A subjective learning approach and the objective one both have its own limits where at that limit point one approach needs a help by the other and then looking with both approaches we not only learn but in true can grow up in favor of our enjoyment and in favor of the quality levels of the MUSIC LP reproduction.

Normally the gentlemans that go with only the subjective approach to take decisions are just followers of other audiophiles that have same stand alone subjective approach with out be aware of that limit point.

With all respect I think that in this specific SUT issue your approach stays at its limit and with you just can’t elevate the quality analog reproduction in your room/system and my take here is that you need to show to your self ( not to other audiophiles including me. ) that open mind you are talking about.

If we mix subjective and objective know-how/skills each one us will take way better audio decisions always along that we are really investing our money instead to just spend it.

In this thread you already have almost all the objective true reasons why don’t use a SUT and why is better for the cartridge signal MUSIC a high gain active units.

R.

@rauliruegas 

I tried to find a middle ground with you and that was clearly a mistake on my part. You’ve got me beat on the stubbornness front :-) 

Peace! 

I really sorry.

R.

Update: I haven’t found Leben or Accuphase on used market yet but I did find a hidden gem straight from Japan. After spending a week, I am in complete ‘awe’ with this amazing phono that is allowing me to appreciate and enjoy my record collection at another level.

With permalloy core wound transformer on board for Low and High MC and MM cartridges, Softone Model 4 proving its existence to be a worthy stablemate for my Etsuro Bordeaux (0.25mV). And a pair of 12AX7 aboard gives me plenty of drive to tube roll in very near future.

Anyone looking for a tube phono under $1K should check out this phono. It’s a screaming bargain!

http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm

12AX7s provide plenty of gain but actually not much "drive". Drive is a term associated usually with current output, and the 12AX7 is puny in that department. In any case, gain is what you need and what you get with a 12AX7. Just as well you did not find a Leben; nice as the Leben may sound, it does not have enough gain even for a low-ish output MM or typical "high output" MI (which usually makes about half the output V of a typical MM). It’s fine for a cartridge with at least 5mV output and provided you also use a linestage with added gain. For a typical LOMC cartridge, even with a SUT, the Leben is problematic.

@lewm

The distinction between gain and drive is crucial, especially in circuits where driving low-impedance loads or handling higher current demands comes into play.

But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. I can understand your confusion since you’re not into tube rolling..LOL!

With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preferences. Since the 12AX7 is so widely used, there’s a treasure trove of options out there, from vintage classics like Telefunken and Mullard to modern production from brands like Gold Lion or JJ.

Cheers!

Softone Model 4 phono continues to improve and today marked a noticeable shift in sound, rendering more relaxed and mesmerizing sound. 

Listening to “When Your Love Is Gone”  from Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson - 45RPM….gave me goose bumps. This is easily one of finest performance of Ben’s career…wish there was repeat mode on my TT :-)

@lalitk   : "" 

But I was referring to my ‘drive’ as in motivation for tube rolling. ........

With the right tubes, you can fine-tune the tonal balance, detail, and dynamics to suit your preference ""

It's better an equalizer than any tube rolling strategy.

R.

Lalitk, upon re-reading your “drive” statement, I now see that it should have been obvious to me what you meant. My bad. As far as tube rolling goes, and I’ve written this many times here, keep in mind that tubes age and can change character, even get noisier, as they age. Especially in the first 50-100 hours. So what you fall in love with on day 1 may not be lasting, and two, having spent big bucks on a rare or selected tube, we all have an expectation bias that inevitably colors one’s judgement. No one is immune to that. What I do agree with is selecting the best possible tube for a given job. This means for example don’t use a 12AX7 as a cathode follower if you expect it to drive even a middling load, and don’t use a 12AU7 for gain. There are several inherently better sounding tube types with near identical electrical parameters, no matter what exotic brand of 12AU7/ECC82 one cares to name. Unfortunately there are many preamps and amplifiers that commit one or both of those sins.

@lewm 

Your point duly noted!

In essence, tube rolling is as much about understanding circuit design as it is about personal taste. The idea of swapping tubes to enhance a particular sound can be fun and rewarding, but it’s important to recognize that tube aging, expectation bias, and circuit compatibility are all major factors that can impact the perceived results.

I agree with you on being selective about the type of tube to choose for a specific role is far more critical than simply choosing the most exotic or expensive tube, and in many cases, this can lead to better results than relying on the often subjective differences between brands of the same type.

For now, I am just letting Model 4 play out with stock tubes and keeping my eyes peeled for NOS tube options. 

If you are still looking for an SUT I just got an Uesugi Bros Type H 1:10.

Might be a bit better than my Hashimoto HM-7.

Only one record in but so far so good.

The Type L is 1:20.

The SUTs were done in collaboration with Tamura, rumor says.

@theflattire 

Thanks for the mention. Yes, SUT’s option still very much under consideration. It will happen, just not sure of the timeline. Looking more like early next year. 

Dear @theflattire  :  Uesugi was made it by TEAC and looking ist frequency rsponse deviaiton level of +1db  -0.5db I seriously doubt that Tamura was invloved down there ( Tamura was a lot better in several ways. )

"Tokyo Electro Acoustic Company (TEAC)
A big Japanese manufacturer of audio, video & instrumentation hardware. Makes consumer equipment and computer components under the TEAC name, semi-pro and professional audio and video equipment under the Tascam name and high end audio under the Esoteric and Uesugi brands. "

As you said probably only a " rumor ". I own true Tamura SUT and were in the vintage times a expensive ones and not like the Uesugi at 88K Yens. 

Look, I´m not saying is a bad SUT.

R.

You have it backwards: Uesugi produced components under the TEAC name.

Let me be clear that I do not advocate substituting one tube type for another when the two are of different types, like 12AX7 vs 12AU7. To do that you have also to be willing and able to change resistors and/or capacitors to suit the new tube choice. I was referring to choices a designer makes. Sorry if I was unclear.