IF there is a rich and dumb audiophile market out there, I suppose someone will serve it.
Rich and smart do not always go hand in hand so I suspect there is such a market out there to target and scoring in that market is probably not all that hard in that the people would by definition be dumb (and rich). Actually probably pretty smart from a $$$s perspective to target that market. Smart people can be a pain in the arse and poor people probably have other priorities.
Would not be for me though. There is this ethics thing that my parents managed to ingrain in me that prevents me from taking advantage even of rich people who are fortunate yet perhaps not very bright, much less the poor..... Damn!
On the bright side, one less sin this year to repent...... |
High priced tweeks don't work, besides being superstitious is bad luck. |
Geoffkait involved in a discussion concerning the viability of tweaks? Unbelievable. |
Timmy, see Davvie's post.
Geoffkait |
zydo, Just what would proof about a Quantum product, any other tweak, or component for that matter, consist of? A serious query, by the way. The lack of said proof, or even clear agreement what a proof would be, makes so many of these discussions circular, pointless and acrimonious.
I happen to agree about most tweaks, but not Quantum products and no, I could,nt give a coherent explanation of Quantum theory, to save my live. darn it, it works for me though. I can,t think of anyone who has listened to my setup and not heard a clear difference, largely, it seems from a lower noise floor. I agree they are overpriced, which is why I bought mine less than half price, second hand.
some items I have tried and been disappointed with, in no particular order:
stillpoint Ultra SS
Karan K180 integrated amp
living Voice Avatar speakers
nordost Valhalla power cable
Unison Research S6 integrated amp
I could go on. Most were second hand and sold at minimal loss, so not all bad.
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Polk432 wrote,
"I've borrowed Bybee, Shakti, Tice and other tweeks from a friend that used to be in the audio business, and I'll take a Rolex any day. Even he admitted that they made little if any difference in sound."
I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but it appears, at least for your dealer friend, to be a case of operator error or an insufficiently resolving system as the tweaks you mentioned have excellent track records. C'est la vie. |
Who would admit that they paid lots of money for something that made little to no difference? If you have good equipment you don't need tweeks. If you like wasting money, fine. I'll still take a Rolex. If Bybee bullets sell for 2K and make 20K difference in sound as claimed, then why don't they sell for 20K? Shakti's 1200 to 1700 for a few pieces of wood? Yeah, right. |
Polk432 wrote,
"Who would admit that they paid lots of money for something that made little to no difference?
If you have good equipment you don't need tweeks. If you like wasting money, fine. I'll still take a Rolex."
I'm kind of getting this weird feeling you just answered your own question.
:-)
I'm a Timex Ironman kind of guy, I guess. |
David12 Stillpoints Ultra SS, really? Under what component did you use them? |
David12, first off, I normally don't add to these threads after my first post. They always seem to turn ugly, and I refuse to get caught up in that. To me, proof is something that can be measured. I will admit, everything doesn't fall into that catagory. To me, I think thats rare. I have added things at home that didn't seem to make an audible difference. If you do that with 5 things, then took them all out, I think that might be audible. Some things I've seen, but not limited to, would be the likes of the "teleportation tweak", jars of pebbles, temple bells, dishes filled with water, dots on your walls, and on and on. There are just to many to list. People must buy them, so there is a market. I could tell you a certain size block of wood, sanded with a secret combination of sandpaper, and placed under my chair made my system sound better. Some fool would buy it. To me, this is nothing but "snakeoil". Do I know, or understand everything? Certainly not. It's my opinion, nothing more. I think just a bit of common sense should tell you if it even has a chance to help. For the people that buy these things, and believe, good for you. I'm just never going to be one of them. Anyone that cares to throw the insults, or testimonials, go ahead, I won't be debating it. |
Zydo, no insult intended, I assure you. The point I was trying to make, is that very few things seem to be measurable, to everyone's satisfaction. We are reduced then to what works for each of us, in our own systems, perhaps backed by others opinions, when listening to the system, as I suggested with the Quantum QB4 in my system.
In that context, discussion can become pointless. I wouldn't challenge your opinion about what works in your system, any more than I would accept your telling me I am wrong about what I hear in mine.
linkster, the Ultras were used under turntable, CD player and amp, compared with original Stillpoints+risers. The most audible difference and there was one, was under the turntable, where they stayed. To me the difference wasn't worth the price hike. Again, just my opinion. |
I loved the Rolex I had. I sold it and invested in gold silver plat and finally got my hands on some rhodium. With the profits I make I'll get another Rolex for a lot less than I paid for the first one. At least it will do something. TWEEKS don't. Keep right on fooling yourselves. Maybe someone could try using Shakti's as speaker stands with still points under them, and whatever you do don't forget bybee bullets. Let us know how the combo works for you. Maybe I'll try a silver brick on top of my components and some stacked gold coins under the feet. I'll bet the sound is amazing. |
Is suspect if one rings that bell enough it can make almost anything sound good from there!
0--0
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David, I was not the least bit insulted. I think most things can be measured. Maybe not by me at home, but it can be done. That being said, if you read a review, and something tests better on paper, it doesn't mean that it will be more pleasing to me. (or you for that matter) The fact is, I believe you should be able to test something and show it makes a difference. Good or bad, who's to say? What I enjoy, you may not, and vise versa. I might love something that tests poorly. The claims by sellers that have no reviews, or scientific back up, seem a waste of time. I'm always willing to listen, but i'm a sceptic. Someone that thinks it has to help, probably hears something different. If thats the case, for them it does. Myself, I have a real hard time spending money on those things. I wish these posts could go on without the insults that always end up ruining the discussion. I'm afraid my answer earlier may have seemed like it was directed at a single person, or company. It wasn't. For that, I apologize. It just happens to be what came to mind. The people that sell these things might be very passionate about what they sell. I would love to be able to have one of them come to my home, and set their stuff up. If they could convert me, anything is possible. |
Well said Zydo. For me I'm OK with claims that have no scientific backup. Frankly the cost to test would bankrupt many companies (depending on the test of course) and likely not convince anyone. What chaps me is a half arsed scientific sounding explanation that I know is BS. Some devices are certainly explained using quantum physics/mechanics, but thats free because everything in the electromagnetic/gravitational/nuke world is governed by this. Be like a speaker company claiming their stuff is the best because they tweaked gravity or that gravity affects their components equally due to some special treatment. May well be a fab speaker. not a fab explanation. Problem is that may folks can pick up on this even without being a gravity expert and its not unreasonable to draw conclusions even hearing the things. In a large part Im with Elizabeth on this as it offends me to think of innocent people getting cheated. They may well not but I lump the product together with the explanation right or wrong. |
David12, so you were comparing the original Stillpoints to the new Ultra SS's, as opposed to the difference between Stillpoints vs. nothing which is what I would be most interested in. |
Getting back on Topic, here is my list:
Marantz SA-8001, sounded like crap in my system.
DeVore Gibbon 8, couldn't get them to sound good.
Raysonic CD168, uninvolving & too much bling!
And the worst......
a Yaquin Hybrid Integrated amp direct from China. This piece of junk was so bad that it destroyed the crossover in a Vandersteen 2CE speaker. The metal work was horrible, lots of sharp edges and it sounded dirty (grainey, distortion).
The Marantz, Devore and Raysonic did not seem worth the money considering the sound was not up to par in my system and my room. |
Schumann generator. Bought one on a whim. No difference in sound, presence, spatial qualities, etc. etc. None of my guests has heard an iota of difference with it. |
I'll add one that is kind of back to front. My neighbor put together a system because he liked mine and also had a friend whispering in his ear. Got some scandinavian speakers (dont know what kind but mid price, some rears/center/sub and then crammed then into corners to keep them out of the way. Sounds terrible but they like it. I guess the lesson is if you buy good stuff and stuff it in a closet so it sounds bad it's overpriced. |
Linkster Sorry about the delay in replying. Yes you are correct, origonal Stillpoints, with and without risers, compared to Stillpoint Ultra SS. Again, the biggest difference was on the turntable and there was a difference, but not, to my ears, commensurate with the price. Only to my ears and on my system, of course. |
I totally disagree about Rolexes being for suckers. I bought mine almost 29 years ago for $650. I have been wearing it nearly every day since and it still keeps time accurate to within 2-3 minutes a month. I expect to wear it for another 30 years. Anybody still have a piece of audio gear from 1984 which has been used daily and still functions nearly perfectly? |
Yes: I purchased a Mitsubishi DA-F20 tuner in the 70's. It is on all the time -still sounds great. Never been serviced. |
The Tice clocks. I actually bought them in 1991. Still have them as a reminder of my youthful stupidity and the superior salesmanship of The Cable Company. I look at them daily, leering and sneering at me in justifiable superiority at my idiocy and hope to be smarter each day. I keep them as a warning - and by and large keeping them has kept me from making the same moronic mistake again - although I've come close - $4800 for a pair of Stealth Indras the closest.......but I fixed that....sold 'em....didn't fix the Tices though. A good few hundred $ for some $10 worth of LCD clocks.....audioassholitude is the malady and its a constant fight to keep it at bay........ |
Springbok10 wrote,
"The Tice clocks. I actually bought them in 1991. Still have them as a reminder of my youthful stupidity and the superior salesmanship of The Cable Company. I look at them daily, leering and sneering at me in justifiable superiority at my idiocy and hope to be smarter each day."
Perhaps way back in 1991 your system was not resolving enough to hear the Tice Clocks. Have you by any chance listened to the Tice Clocks recently? One assumes your system is a lot more revealing now than it was in 1991. |
My $10.00 "atomic" alarm clock is accurate to 1/10th of a second a year. Why would anyone pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a timpiece that is accurate to 2-3 minutes a month? There's an audio analogy in there somewhere.
Back to the topic at hand: Though an old component, I nominate the Soundstream DAC-1 (designed in conjuntion with Krell!), for the uncoveted award. If one likes the sound of fingernails on chalkboards reflected by glass, then The Soundstream DAC-1 is for you. |
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I will chime in here;
I felt that this example supports Aerial 6t & 7t loudspeakers. Over-priced in comparison to performance.
Dynaudio speakers fit this category as well.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Don't like to bad rap stuff!! |
Nothing really. Just cause something does not float my boat does not mean it might not be the apple of another's eye. 🍎 👀 |
Mapman, I agree. I own one of the brands Jafant mentioned and after listening to everything else available locally I thought they were a bargain. Different strokes and all that. |
I guess I would not catch much flack putting most Bose stuff in this category.
Not audio per se but I am also not an Apple fan in general. I almost always feel I can do better elsewhere. Despite that, I use an Apple tablet for convenience quite often and I guess that is OK. |
Usually when I hear a piece of good quality audio gear that I do not like AT ALL, it turns out something was damaged or not set up or working right. Most stuff is pretty good and worth the cost if one thinks so, as long as the whole system is assembled and set up well.
Accordingly, in general tend to think a lot of uber expensive gear that can only work well in a smaller room might be overpriced, but I don't hate it and generally that stuff should and does sound top notch as well, if done right as I mentioned above. |
Also I gotta say that there are many esoteric tweak devices sold that are overpriced accordingly. Some do little or nothing at all, so they are hard to hate other than for the fact that perhaps you got ripped off. |
Gosh, Mapman, you don't say? I'm getting the distinct feeling you're not my kinda guy. :-) |
Mapman, you sound like you have a lot of experience with exotic tweaks that don't work. I trust you got your money back. :-) |
Here's a little bad press regarding the Shakti Holograms in this thread:
"Shakti's 1200 to 1700 for a few pieces of wood? Yeah, right."
I have two pairs of the Holograms ... one pair in the corners of the room behind the speakers and another pair spread out behind the listening position. Yes, not only are they made of wood, but cheaply built and flimsy too. BUT, I would challenge anyone to come over while I move them in and out of the system and deny that they don't make a VERY significant difference. I wouldn't want to listen without them. |
Mpingo discs get pinged a lot, too. Which is really quite funny considering what even one will do in just the right place. |
McIntosh MAC6700 Receiver ...
Purchased back in April of this year in a futile attempt to lessen the equipment collection. $6500 full retail.
Handsome, heavy thing indeed.
Not long afterward I couldn't find the expected magic for some reason, there was something imposing itself on the sound. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with the unit, it was simply the voicing of the amp that I found...not to my preferences.
I traded it in for the new MC275 Mark VI tube amp and couldn't be happier. |
Oh, almost forgot...whenever I begin to believe I may need new connects or speaker wires I whip out a box of Q-Tips. Doesn't work all of the time but it's a decent and inexpensive method of thinking again before I spend! |
oblgny, I know in the 70's the Mac receivers never came close to the sound put out by the Mac integrated amps or separate components. Maybe some things never change.
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