Receiver Too Weak?
Below is my setup. It just sounds lackluster and I'm wondering if it's my receiver or something else. I put some links in there so it's easy to find specs.
Receiver: Yamaha RX-A770 (https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-a770_u/specs.html#product-tabs)
Center: Bowers & Wilkins HTM62 (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/bowers-and-wilkins/htm62.shtml)
Front: Bowers & Wilkins CM8 (https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/baw-cm8-bookshelf-speakers/)
Thanks!
Is your comments on two channel music? Or on home theater.
Receivers are typically a big compromise, whether HT or 2 channel audio. But particularly 2 channel audio. All in one boxes are compromise after compromise. it doesn’t matter quite as much in Home theater because you’re distracted by the video. But even in the case of video, my home theater system has a separate amplifier and surround processor and input devices. |
Your receiver is low end and does not come with pre-outs for the fronts/center so you can run them to a powerful external amplifier.
What is your budget? Get a processor with pre-outs (price can go up quickly). Here is some affordable stuff https://emotiva.com/products/basx-mr1l-9-2-channel-dolby-atmos%C2%AE-dts-x%E2%84%A2-cinema-receiver Or https://summithifiusa.com/collections/tonewinner/products/at-300-16-channel-pre-pro-releasing-soon
Pair such a processor with one of these amps. https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-5-gen3 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15593 https://summithifiusa.com/collections/tonewinner/products/ad-7300pa-amplifier
If you have a slightly bigger budget... https://www.crutchfield.com/p_642AV10/Marantz-AV-10.html https://www.crutchfield.com/p_440B15852B/Rotel-RMB-1585-MKII-Black.html?tp=180 etc
If you have an unlimited budget...look at Trinnov, Storm Audio, etc. |
@easytarget This is caused by the huge dynamic range of many multi-channel audio track mixes. It’s optimized for folks who want "lifelike" whiz-bang effects at loud SPL. It’s NOT great if you’re trying to get strong, audible dialog without popping your eardrums when Godzilla shows up. It also forces you to push the volume up WAY higher than what you would expect, just to hear clear dialog. Most processors/ receivers will have a setting for precisely this reason - to compensate for the benefit of dialog. Sometimes it’s called "dynamic range compression" (normally that has bad connotations, i.e. "CD’s loudness wars", but it can be very good here!). Sometimes it’s more wordy-mumbly like "make loud sounds less loud". You need to find that setting, and turn it on! In all likelihood, your speakers and amp are fine and will sound REALLY good once you rectify this. Sometimes just a simple 2ch downmix helps, but you should really look for this setting. Personally, I hate it when a mix has TOO MUCH dynamic range, for exactly this reason. Most 2ch music formats have a much more reasonable mix for the home environment. |
EasyTarget, most receivers have the ability to control the volume of each channel. I suggest bumping up the center volume to help you hear dialog, but keep the front R L channel volume the same, so the loud parts of the show don't get too loud. I find the really loud parts are mostly the R&L channels. As to lackluster sound, as GHD said, your receiver does not have power (current) to dynamically drive your R&L channels to their full potential. And the overall quality of the processing and output of the receiver will limit performance. |
Not all of the issue is the AVR, some of it is the sound engineering on the movie. I run into this a lot. Some movies have a perfect balance between speech and sound, others do not.
The last thing is what others have been saying, your amp may not be up to the task of driving your speakers. In my case, my AVR has a line out that I run to my preamp and direct to my monoblocks. The limiting factor of an AVR's output is the power supply, if you look closely at the power ratings of your AVR, you will see it goes down the more speakers you add, de-rate their claimed output by 30% to 50% and you will be in the right ball park. I would suggest no less than 150 watts per channel with all 5 (or 7) channels being driven for those speakers if you want good "life" in your movies. |
On second thought, yamaha receivers do offer some features like dialog level, dialog lift (if your center channel has suboptimal placement), etc after you get into their Aventage line. Hence, the minimum you should get is the Yamaha RX-A4A Aventage model. Such receivers have a bigger power supply and current to spare for your B&Ws. If it was still inadequate, it will have preouts for external power amps depending on the number of channels you’re running...it may even turn into ’hifi’ hometheater depending on the amp and power conditioning you chose. Also, bump your center channel level a few dB up, as someone else suggested (and as needed). Set the cal mic right at ear height on a tripod. On a general note, if you have your center channel laying on the floor or stuffed in a cabinet, etc, it is not a good idea. It is also a good idea to have 3-way concentric driver designed speakers with a lower woofer/midrange crossover for center channel applications. |
OP, this very issue is what set me on the road to upgrading from a so-so HT system to what I like to think is a fairly decent hi-fi system that allows for TV intergration via HDMI or Optical, depending on what I’m looking at ( for instance, multichannel movies/streaming shows or 2 Chanel YouTube music videos like “Tiny Desk, etc). I too found my AVR wasn’t cutting it, however I did have a pre-out and started with using a powerful 2 or 3 channel amps for the LCR (Used Acurus, Emotiva, etc) and let the AVR (Denon) handle the surrounds and subs (x2). I made sure to use the room correction ( Audyssey) to get the multichannel mixes right (very important for HT!). That made a HUGE improvement for HT. I used DEFTECH flagships (9080s) for all the speakers, including the CC which all rated at 95db sensitivity, so everything played with power and ease. Keep that in mind as you consider any change in your speaker/receiver/amp upgrades: make sure you get high sensitivity speakers so your power amps or receiver have plenty of head room to power your listening space. I now have a low sensitivity setup with Maggie’s so I use a lot of power (Parasound A21+) that match-up pretty well. I believe your bookshelf B&Ws are 89db, which is ok, but will definitely struggle with high peaks in action sequences and have your turning up the center channel volume for quiet dialogue with your Yamy’s 95w/per. It is pushing up to 7 amps in a cramped box w/ likely a pretty noisy transformer. I learned the hard way how important it is to match the speaker/amp setup.Your Yamy is a solid AVR, just not strong enough to push all those lower sensitivity speakers. If it’s for HT exclusively I recommend getting high sensitivity 3-way floor standing speakers and leave the B&Ws for 2 channel music. Upgrade your AVR to one that has a pre-out and get an external power amp (there’s plenty of good powerful older models on EBay or Reverb to try-out until you find what you like). Whatever you do, remember it’s the matchup bw the sensitivities and power. Good luck! |
Sadly, I think you need more receiver, it's under 100w @ 2 ch, usually if you drive more channels the power will be even less. Your speakers have low sensitivity, so they need more power to sing. You didn't really say if it's music or movies that are the issue. If you are only running 3 speakers, or something else. Setting up a HT system is a ton of work, you have several speakers to place, a ton of wires to run, some of them are LONG runs. Setting all the individual speaker levels, each speaker crossover, subs, etc..... It's a serious process that takes a lot of time, effort and skill. A good starting point is to measure out the listing room, place the speakers, measure them to the listing area, try to get them all square. Then run your room correction. Listen to it for a bit, adjust as needed. For the center speaker, try to keep in inline with the front L/R, make sure it is open to the room, no reflections on top or below. As in a shelf, or cabinet. If it is, pull it out, so the drivers are in front or at least flush with it. Is there a coffee table also in between you and the center? Move it, and see how it sounds, or put a blanket over it. Seriously it will sound very different. Then adjust all the levels to suit you. Than rinse and repeat. Different sources, different services sound so different. My HT receiver has a couple pre-set stores for settings, I adjust them a bit for the source. Like Netflix's usually needs more bass, and center ch. Amazon needs less bass, and center, also dynamic compensation. That is unless I want the room to shake. We didn't even get into cables, subs, room treatments, etc... FWIW, I have a 9.4.2 setup, sadly I fiddle with it almost every time a movie starts. |
Op, Here's my short list to solve what I'll call your HT amplification problem: Can't hear details (dialogue, or otherwise), (plus, maybe weak soundstage?): 1. Mostly HT: high sensitivity speakers for sure (95db or more) 2. Size of your room? Sm/Med (Your speakers w/ subs (+ AVR/amp of 200w or more); Large Rm: floor standing 3-way speakers (DefTechs are great for movies, not so great for music) + Sub/s with almost any AVR not less than 100w/ch for ALL surrounds (which really means you'll need an AVR or amp pushing 200w/per anyway). 3. Subs ALWAYS for HT. I recommend 2, but you have a large SVS, so may be fine. |
OP-One more thing..(my Columbo...) I really got as big boost in my HT system when I used the pre-out to a separate 3 way amp (It was an Acurus 200x3) to handle the fronts and center channel. I mean EVERYTHING changed then and there. My setup was a Denon x4500h (still in the system handling TV sources) and the Deftechs: 9080x fronts, CS 9040 and SR 9040s for a 7.2 system. The fronts had 12" woofers but I still used 2 8" subs. Just consider what you've been seeing posted so far: If you want a great HT system you need high sensitivity speakers and a moderate to high-powered amplification from a outboard amp or heavy duty AVR. Again, good luck! |
First, thank you all for the responses and sorry for being slow to respond myself. I think these are the answers to the questions I saw… 1. I don't really listen to a ton of music on the system. I watch tv/movies and play video games. 2. The sub is a Martin Logan (https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/dynamo-500) The floor speakers are bi-amped and the setup for it in the receiver settings is done. Should I undo that? If I understand correctly that would reduce the power which will make them perform worse, but maybe the balance will be better until I can improve my equipment? Or does bi-amping not really work as well as it sounds like it should? |
- Remove the "biamp" ....not the right thing to do with a low/bottom budget receiver. - Read the receiver manual front to back. Learn how to setup and run a calibration correctly...and understand all features. - Read some of the comments above again if music is a priority. For just TV and games, don’t worry yourself too much..do whatever... |
