Matchstickman - You're hearing me screaming? Man you must be one of
those underpaid audio reviewers who can hear dog whistles, and gets
annoyed if a mouse farts in the basement during their favorite passage
of Resphigi's Church Windows! I had no idea - we are not worthy (can
you see me bowing deeply at the waste just now?)!!! Everyone knows
you gotta spray the cockroach pizza's with a thick coating of RAID
before you serve em up, otherwise you gotta go running after it every
time you turn the lights on!
As to the A/B test you propose, well, lets just say a certain slogan that
Paul W. Klipsch used to use comes to mind. But I guess that the words
"sound better" are entirely subjective. Herman's spot-on
IMO, the whole concept is more than a bit odd. Why ever would you
want to create a system out of balance, investing disproportionately
more in one component and compromising another. You're investment
in the expensive component would likely be wasted, and or reveal all the
flaws of the lesser component. Balance and synergy is paramount in this
hobby, and in any "system". Also, price alone does not
dictate the quality of a component, nor that components synergy with
another in the chain of similar cost. Given that balance exists, and care
is taken to select components that work well with one and other, I'd
agree with Nrchy's comments about the importance of each of the
individual components, but, as he concludes, a disproportianate
investment in one component over the other is ridiculous.
Marco |
Unsound...Since when do audiophiles agree on anything? |
All things being equal speakers are the least important piece in the equation!
Speakers will never reproduce what doesn't get to them!
1) ROOM
The room is the most important part of your system. Yes it is a part of the system!
A good system in a bad room is not going to sound good! So with that in mind is it still a good system?
2) Nothing down the line will add what the source has failed to collect from the LP/CD/SACD/Cassettte/tuner/8-track, or whatever I missed. It is not possible for the amp, pre-amp, phono stage to know what was missed at the transmission point and replace it later.
3) A good amp/pre-amp combination will loose less of the signal than a poor quality combo. These are probably the source of the greatest signal degradation. All the transistors, capacitors, power supplies, and wires are a loss of signal. Be very careful when selecting these two pieces.
4) The transmission of the signal is huge. It has been said that all cable is crap, but some is less crap than others. I read that here. I think Bob Crump was the source of the quote. Good cable will never degrade the signal as much as the amp/pre-amp combo which is why they are listed where they are. Buy the best cable you can regardless of price. I use Purist exclusively. It is obscenely expensive and worth every penny!!!
5) Speakers are important, but less so than everything listed before. They only reproduce what gets to them. The most important task of a stereo system is to maintain the signal from the source to the speakers. If the system does this well they speakers will sound good.
I am not suggesting buying 'cheap' speakers, what I am saying is that they are not more improtant than any other componant! This idea of spending a disproportionally (50%) large amount of money for them is patently absurd. Speakers reproduce only what they get, they do not add to the signal although poor quality speakers will degrade the sound. |
Interesting, that those that stuck to the given paramters couldn't agree. |
I still think that if I did an A/B test between two systems; crappy source/good speakers vs good source/crappy speakers, I could get the latter to sound better and I could hear Jax2 scream on Audiogon.
And, I bet some country, somewhere in the world, would think cockroaches on pizza is a great idea, so there!! Just think of it.....crunchy pizza. Although, you would have to figure out a way to keep your pizza from crawling away. |
Pineapples!? Hey, we all don't live in California! Friggen' New-Age designer pizza's! I got yer' pineapples right here green man!
Marco |
Yeah I agree with Herman, I hate anchovies! Marco, you forgot the pinneapples! |
5, 1, 2, 4, 3.
Money has something to do with this also: a decent source can be had for less than a thousand, but excellent speakers cost more. Getting a really great room could cost many many thousands--got to buy a house first! |
Herman - It's no use.....On Audiogon, no one can hear you scream!!!
Marco
PS Serve'em up a nice steamin' slice with cockroaches in place of the pepporoni....they'll never know the difference. I'll pass on the Pizza in that case, but I'll go for some of that Smoking Loon Slipknot offered! |
1...The signal.
a. The disc or LP being played. (The ultimate limit on quality).
b. The playback equipment, disc player or turntable and pickup. (How well the disc's potential is realized).
2...The speakers.
a. Type of speaker (planar, box, etc) , and make and model.
b. Number of speakers and their placement.
c. The room in which the speakers operate.
3...Amplification.
a. Active circuitry.
b. Speaker wires (Importance depends on length required).
c. Interconnects (Importance depends on active circuitry details).
As a special case for LP's only, turntable mounting provisions may rank somewhere at the top of the list if you have a problem with vibration. |
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I would suppose the following order of priorities:
1. Quality music and recordings (garbage in, garbage out)
2. Room acoustics
3. Line conditioning
4. Amplification
5. Speakers
6. preamp
7. source
8. cabling and racking needs.(a tie)
9. Furnishings. (leather vs. clothe, etc.)
I put line conditioning above all other electronics simply because sometimes one really doesn't know exactly what they are buying until the AC noise has been properly addressed (or sometimes improperly addressed).
-IMO |
Matchstikman, if you have crappy speakers with a great source the end result is still crap.
If you put one bad ingredient on your pizza you are going to have a bad pizza not matter how good the rest of it is. |
the amplification system. tubes rule! |
Herman, how can you say that what I ask is impossible? Come on, all things being equal, don't you give weight to some things over others?
IMHO, I would prefer a great source and front end with crappy speakers to bad source and crappy front end with great speakers.
As for the Pizza, try making a pizza without the dough first. You could probably do it, but what a mess. Plus, pepperoni is not necessary and sometimes a cheese pizza is not bad. |
While I understand and respect the opinions listed above, I tend to disagree...slightly. I would rank these 4,5,1,2,3. The room is hugely important, but can't be most important. The reason for this is that a great room can't make up for a lousy source and speakers, but it sure can kill great ones. You have to have a good source and speakers first, then fix the room to get good sound. Power and connection stuff is icing on the cake. Happy eats!!! |
The room is the biggest influence on your sound period. Do not be folled tinto thinking that the room isn't. It can make up 70-80% of yor sound. Just try one of the room correction devices and you will hear the differences. After the room the sound you prefer will come mainly from your speakers, just go listen to a dozen and you will notice that no two sound the same, ever! The equipment matching comes into play with the speaker you select. I also found that components in the same price range do sound similar some lean one way or the other as in detailed, lean, smoother, brighter, etc.
I will take mine with extra cheese and fried onions please.
Happy Listening. |
In my experience room placement is critical to getting the most out of your system. So I would start there. Once you've found a placement withint the room that works it can only get better with changing the other items on your list, though tweaking will be necessary with things like specific speaker plcaement once you change those. I've heard very modest systems with good placement kick the wazoo out of great systems with poor placement.
I agree that speaker choice is next, though closely tied in with placement of course. |
Marco-
The Pizza analogy was great. Do you want a Smoking Loon Cab or Merlot with that pie? ;) |
1 and 5 should really be tied for first--it's the interaction between the two that makes the sound. Everything else pales by comparison. |
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Synergy between all of your criteria listed is most important. Source always tops my list as far as what to emphasize investment in (garbage in = garbage out). This subject has been beaten into the ground with a huge club on all the lists. Stick a fork in it, I think it's done! Archive searches will result in a plethora of opinions. Fact is the weakest link in the chain can potentially destroy the qualities and or limit the capacity of what the other links are yielding. Even combinations of what may be considered a "GREAT" speaker combined with a "GREAT" amp may not work well if the synergy is not there. A fantastic system can be severly compromised by the way it's set up and the room it is installed in. Beyond that such a question makes about as much sense to me as:
In getting the best taste from your pizza, list the importance of the following toppings in the order of their priority:
1. Cheese
2. Dough/Crust
3. Sauce
4. Pepporoni
5. Spices
You'll get 1001 opinions as different as fingerprints. It all matters. None of it matters at all. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Marco |
Ditto John's rankings, and I agree fully with Herman's comments. |
1,5,4,2,3,IMHO. BTW, you seem to have ignored how to drive the speakers (amp/preamp/integrated). I would rate this group (6) less important than the source, but more important than your 2&3.
Regards,
John |
Bad speakers in a great room will sound as poor as great speakers in terrible room. A great source feeding bad speakers will sound just as poor as a bad source feeding great speakers, etc. etc.
What you ask is impossible. It is called a system for a reason, and that includes the room. |
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