Pineapples!? Hey, we all don't live in California! Friggen' New-Age designer pizza's! I got yer' pineapples right here green man!
Marco |
Synergy between all of your criteria listed is most important. Source always tops my list as far as what to emphasize investment in (garbage in = garbage out). This subject has been beaten into the ground with a huge club on all the lists. Stick a fork in it, I think it's done! Archive searches will result in a plethora of opinions. Fact is the weakest link in the chain can potentially destroy the qualities and or limit the capacity of what the other links are yielding. Even combinations of what may be considered a "GREAT" speaker combined with a "GREAT" amp may not work well if the synergy is not there. A fantastic system can be severly compromised by the way it's set up and the room it is installed in. Beyond that such a question makes about as much sense to me as:
In getting the best taste from your pizza, list the importance of the following toppings in the order of their priority:
1. Cheese
2. Dough/Crust
3. Sauce
4. Pepporoni
5. Spices
You'll get 1001 opinions as different as fingerprints. It all matters. None of it matters at all. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Marco |
Herman - It's no use.....On Audiogon, no one can hear you scream!!!
Marco
PS Serve'em up a nice steamin' slice with cockroaches in place of the pepporoni....they'll never know the difference. I'll pass on the Pizza in that case, but I'll go for some of that Smoking Loon Slipknot offered! |
Matchstickman - You're hearing me screaming? Man you must be one of
those underpaid audio reviewers who can hear dog whistles, and gets
annoyed if a mouse farts in the basement during their favorite passage
of Resphigi's Church Windows! I had no idea - we are not worthy (can
you see me bowing deeply at the waste just now?)!!! Everyone knows
you gotta spray the cockroach pizza's with a thick coating of RAID
before you serve em up, otherwise you gotta go running after it every
time you turn the lights on!
As to the A/B test you propose, well, lets just say a certain slogan that
Paul W. Klipsch used to use comes to mind. But I guess that the words
"sound better" are entirely subjective. Herman's spot-on
IMO, the whole concept is more than a bit odd. Why ever would you
want to create a system out of balance, investing disproportionately
more in one component and compromising another. You're investment
in the expensive component would likely be wasted, and or reveal all the
flaws of the lesser component. Balance and synergy is paramount in this
hobby, and in any "system". Also, price alone does not
dictate the quality of a component, nor that components synergy with
another in the chain of similar cost. Given that balance exists, and care
is taken to select components that work well with one and other, I'd
agree with Nrchy's comments about the importance of each of the
individual components, but, as he concludes, a disproportianate
investment in one component over the other is ridiculous.
Marco |
Matchstick - It's all that RAID on my pizza's man...I think it's doing something to me.....I just can't relax anymore!! I gotta stop with the pizza's cause it's driving me nuts. So you're one of the ones putting all those mice in traction just because they fart once in a while!! You know how expensive that kind of care is for a mouse. It's driving their insurance rates sky high and they can't handle it with their tiny mouse salaries. Maybe if you listened to Resphigi more often you could get them to hold in their farts in till those really low passages that rattle your windows. I know, you'd probably still hear them, but have a heart guy, we all fart don't we?!
Marco |
I believe Nrchy was inferring that if the information is not retrieved from the source in the first place, or is distorted or colored in a specific way by the source component, nothing you can do down the line is going to alter that. The room, on the other hand will effect anything and everything you present within it's boundries. It can make or break virtually any aspect of stereophonic reproduction/illusion regardless of how great all the remainder of the components in the system are. An extreme example: Stick a well assembled $50K system in a tiled bathroom and you have pretty much wasted $50K.
Marco
PS Paul W. Klipsch's witty reparte I referred to was a button he was fond of wearing, and which he marketed as a promotional tool giveaway. It reflected his feelings about a lot of what is presented as 'fact' within the audio world. It read simply: "Bullshit" |
LOL Matchstikman. When I first moved back to NYC from school I lived in an apartment the size of one of my LaScalas!!
Resphigi's Church Windows is not opera. I don't know if Resphigi ever composed any opera's, but this is symphonic music in a kind of Medievel Neo-Classical theme. There are some absolutely amazing organ passages in that piece that shake the foundation and cause the mice to fart. I have a 45 RPM direct to disk Reference Recording that is quite remarkable. If you have a vinyl rig seek out a copy. You'll have to inquire to those far more knowledgeable than I on these subjects to find a good recording on CD....does RR still exist, and are they doing CD's? This recording is of Keith Clark and the Pacific Symphony Orchestra and is RR-15.
Best,
Marco |
Nrchy - Sorry to have cut off your comeback. You've made some good points that I happen to agree with. I could also add that the 'room' issue is also at the root of many a good deal on Audiogon where someone doesn't give a component or system a fighting chance and either pairs it off with the wrong system, or compromises it's capacity in some other way like the room scenario. A good example of something like this would someone reading a review about a 3 watt SET amp and goes out and buys one to combine with his/her outstanding, rave-reviewed megabuck speaker that is only 88db efficient - well, you can bet you'll be seeing either the amp, the speaker or both for sale here on Audiogon once they hear them together. Yet each one of those components on their own is an expensive, well regarded component. Herman is quite correct...that's why it's called a "System". Not only will two identical systems not sound the same in different rooms, but they may not sound the same to two different sets of ears in the very same room. We all have different preferences and expectations of how a system should sound. That's why you can't measure this stuff with instruments that spit out numbers....that is only a small part of the story. The human end of that equation is entirely subjective.
Marco |
PS I realized on checking the recording that I was spelling Ottorino Respighi's name incorrectly. It is spelled correctly here. Not surprising as I have trouble spelling my own name correctly these days! It's the RAID again, no doubt. |
I never said the room is "most important". I said I agree with Nrchy's comments about the importance of each of the components, which he prefaced with the phrase "all things being equal". I also stressed that the question is absurd if it suggests a disharmony in the stress of balancing one component with another within a system. A poor speaker can indeed bode poorly on the rest of the system, as can any weak link therein. But if you don't have the information there, or if it is distorted or colored in the first place there is absolutely nothing you can do downstream to retrieve it. Stick ANY system you like in a piss-poor room and you will have one horrible sounding system...it simply does not matter how much you spent on it, and how carefully it was put together. Put a pile of human feces (nothing crunchy about that Matchstikman!) on a pizza and no one from any part of the world is going to enjoy it much...yes, I'm sure you will find someone who would still eat it. Again, all of this goes back to Herman's point that was the very first response here, and I will paraphrase him here: What's the f*&king point.....it all matters?! I looked up the word "system" and it has about 47 different definitions in Merriam Webster. But words that come up in many are words like "organized" and "harmonious" and "interdependent". That last one is a good one. "Interdependent"
So are threads like this one (and they are numerous) meant to point out where someone should skimp if they only have a limited budget? If so, my answer to that would be to research things carefully, purchase used from reliable sources if you are comfortable with that, and choose carefully based upon how the individual components work with each other. Always try to audition with your own ears in your own space with your own system if possible. Buying used can make this workable as you can often sell gear for what you paid if it was bought at a fair price. Speakers are tough that way and because they really are quite sensitive to other parts of the system and can be more difficult to deal with, and ship, I'd say try to hear them first before buying. I'd also ask about their expectations, musical preferences, previous experiences. I cannot see recommending to anyone to spend big bucks on one single component and then compromising all the rest of the components. It would occur to me as a waste of money. If they planned on upgrading gradually it may have some merit, but then I don't know that the order of things would necessarily represent their relative "importance" to one another. Speakers are going to be very sensitive as to what you use to amplify the signal fed to them. The room is always going to have an effect on whatever you put in there for a system and perhaps the size and shape and treatments would dictate the kind of system that may work best within it. My home room is sadly lacking and probably my one weakest link and it is NOT a good weak link to have lacking, while I'm pretty happy listening in my workspace (no WAF to deal with at work). I'm no expert here and would leave comments on this to the likes of Mr. Rives.
Yes, "interdependent" really says it all.
Marco |
Unsound - I was reading with rapt attention until you started with the measurements. Sorry, you lost me there. If measurements reliably did equate to the actual listening experience then reviewers would be without a job and the rags would be nothing more than diagrams and numbers.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: "Did someone just fart?"
I'll add this too: Hook up your Kenner Close-N'-Play turntable to you favorite flavor of amplification, lets say it's Lamm tube gear. Pair that marvelous combo off with a suitably decadent speaker choice that says to everyone, "....Don't fuck with me, God made these speakers and you can hear his/her message in every note played through them! Oh, and they cost me a whole butt-load of cash too.....enough to pay for two years at Harvard." Let's call this system "Unsound's Slightly Compromised Reference"
OK, now let's build another system using the same sensational Lamm amplification but this time we'll swap out the Kenner Close-N'-Play turntable front end with, perhaps Albert Porter's front-end rig but now play the whole thing through a pair of speakers with at least a similar efficiency as the first, but this set was purchased from the back of a van somewhere on the Lower East Side from some moke named Vinny for all of $93. Will call this system "Nrchy's Making the Better Argument"
So, if you had to live with one of these two systems for the rest of your life without changing either, Which one would you prefer to listen to music on? No tweaks either. You get to replace the needle on the Close-N'-Play when it wears out....I think you can get them at the Fabric Store. For those of you who'd take the Unsound Reference I have a great resource for some custom moulded earplugs!!!
Marco |
Unsound - well, at least I think we'd both agree that neither one of us would like to (or be LIKELY to) listen to either option, so Albert can breath easy again instead of worrying about donating his front-end to our experiment. Although the proposition seems ridiculous I have seen some folks posting here with systems that I'd imagine were way out of balance on one end or the other (or somewhere in between). I imagine some of that may come from reading threads like this one, and other misinformation, or misinterpreted information professed by salespeople or other externally motivated or strongly opinionated individuals (you know, like you and me). I still maintain that synergy should be the #1 priority in building a system. I'd certainly rather just use my earplugs when riding long distance on my motorcycle and keep my hearing in tact for future sessions with my (well-balanced) systems.
Marco |
The music?!! I think Gunbei sat on it and snapped off a piece. I saw inpepinnovations got the epoxy and soldering iron out to try to fix it, but then got caught up in repositioning his speakers and forgot about it. I think he left that soldering iron plugged in cause I can smell something burning. Nrchy and me took the music down to the sacred store but the man there said the music wouldn't play!!.......and them good ol' boys were drinkin whiskey and rye singin this will be the day that I die.
Marco |
Hey Indiefan - Sign yourself up here and start posting more often. That is an interesting observation and a fine contribution to the thread. I'd like to read more of what you have to say and without your being a member it is more difficult to access that. The worst that could happen is you'll get a few extra "Enlarge Your Penis" and "Buy Viagra Online" emails every day. And for that small price you'll get access to the rantings of a bunch of egomaniacal, obsessed audio-geeks with nothing better to do with their time than to write about their gear and proliferate valuable misinformation that will send your head spinning. Yeah, well, OK, that includes me.....but I might make you laugh once in a while too...and some of these other guys and gals ain't so bad either....actually a few of them seem to really know what they're talking about...and hey, it's kindof fun too! Hope to see you posting more.
Marco |
Satch - The first time I ever had sex was pretty memorable too....well, maybe the second time! But it's not likely I'm going to repeat those same sensations, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to try! Though it may not be the same sensation, I sure wouldn't want to live without it. I'd guess that if you had the choice now between listening to Hendrix on that same worn out stereo you first heard it on, and a much better one, you'd still choose the better one. The experience you are speaking of has nothing to do with the gear at all, which I suppose is exactly your point. But the same kind of magic you experienced that first time could have happened on a $50K system if that's what you had heard it on. My point is that all this is besides the point!! The subject of the thread is focusing on the gear, and you are referring to a sensation entirely outside of the chain of the system. But I do get your point. I have a memory of the very first time I heard a really good system that quite literally seemed to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand upl. I have no recollection of the music that was playing, but I do remember the components in the system and the sensation of the system disappearing and the music being in the room in a three dimensional space. I think I have yet to duplicate THAT experience just because of the novelty of it at that time. BUT if I were to take my system at home and pit it up against that very system I have no doubt at all that I'd prefer my current system. I also have no doubt that the experience of hearing that first system that turned me on to high end would be entirely different to me now, just as listening to Hendrix might be entirely different to you now that you've explored every note for many years no doubt.
Marco |
