And tried to play every note, and found out I'm was not born to be a guitar-hero.... Yeah, I suppose you're right. I just spend more money on music then on equipment, so to me focussing on the gear is not that interesting anymore. Hey, would that mean I've got a perfect system, since I don't want to change? Or am I just getting lazy? Hmmmm....
As for sex: it;s getting better every time....... |
Satch - The first time I ever had sex was pretty memorable too....well, maybe the second time! But it's not likely I'm going to repeat those same sensations, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to try! Though it may not be the same sensation, I sure wouldn't want to live without it. I'd guess that if you had the choice now between listening to Hendrix on that same worn out stereo you first heard it on, and a much better one, you'd still choose the better one. The experience you are speaking of has nothing to do with the gear at all, which I suppose is exactly your point. But the same kind of magic you experienced that first time could have happened on a $50K system if that's what you had heard it on. My point is that all this is besides the point!! The subject of the thread is focusing on the gear, and you are referring to a sensation entirely outside of the chain of the system. But I do get your point. I have a memory of the very first time I heard a really good system that quite literally seemed to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand upl. I have no recollection of the music that was playing, but I do remember the components in the system and the sensation of the system disappearing and the music being in the room in a three dimensional space. I think I have yet to duplicate THAT experience just because of the novelty of it at that time. BUT if I were to take my system at home and pit it up against that very system I have no doubt at all that I'd prefer my current system. I also have no doubt that the experience of hearing that first system that turned me on to high end would be entirely different to me now, just as listening to Hendrix might be entirely different to you now that you've explored every note for many years no doubt.
Marco |
Well Nrchy, the first time I heard Jimi hendrix (my favorite) it was on some cheap midi-set, with a worn-out needle, and the record was even worse..... Still, now owning a bit different system, I never re-captured the magic of that moment. So if I had to choose between some million-dollar equipment without music or an old walkman with flimsy headphones but with a lot of tapes.... well, for me looking at a pile of equipment ain't enough (although I have to admit that it ads a lot to the pleasure of listening!). |
Hey Indiefan - Sign yourself up here and start posting more often. That is an interesting observation and a fine contribution to the thread. I'd like to read more of what you have to say and without your being a member it is more difficult to access that. The worst that could happen is you'll get a few extra "Enlarge Your Penis" and "Buy Viagra Online" emails every day. And for that small price you'll get access to the rantings of a bunch of egomaniacal, obsessed audio-geeks with nothing better to do with their time than to write about their gear and proliferate valuable misinformation that will send your head spinning. Yeah, well, OK, that includes me.....but I might make you laugh once in a while too...and some of these other guys and gals ain't so bad either....actually a few of them seem to really know what they're talking about...and hey, it's kindof fun too! Hope to see you posting more.
Marco |
I am not sure if it is correct to add the person or persons owning the system to this equation? I mean, I tend to think that there are so many ideals of sound reproduction & system configuration recipes that it can be overwhelming to the budding audiophile. The systems that I seem to become most impressed with on here and other audio sites are the ones where the crazy sort of synergy that was arrived at reflected the owners own unbalanced perception- a sort of cat landing on its feet finesse. They are informed, but allow their comfort,preferences, to intrude upon the design of their system even when it goes against the legendary wisdom that set them on this path to begin with. |
If it's only about the music, we'd all have bose acoustic wave machines because sound quality wouldn't matter! |
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The music?!! I think Gunbei sat on it and snapped off a piece. I saw inpepinnovations got the epoxy and soldering iron out to try to fix it, but then got caught up in repositioning his speakers and forgot about it. I think he left that soldering iron plugged in cause I can smell something burning. Nrchy and me took the music down to the sacred store but the man there said the music wouldn't play!!.......and them good ol' boys were drinkin whiskey and rye singin this will be the day that I die.
Marco |
Whatever happened to the music? Or is equipment and acoustics more important? |
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Unsound - well, at least I think we'd both agree that neither one of us would like to (or be LIKELY to) listen to either option, so Albert can breath easy again instead of worrying about donating his front-end to our experiment. Although the proposition seems ridiculous I have seen some folks posting here with systems that I'd imagine were way out of balance on one end or the other (or somewhere in between). I imagine some of that may come from reading threads like this one, and other misinformation, or misinterpreted information professed by salespeople or other externally motivated or strongly opinionated individuals (you know, like you and me). I still maintain that synergy should be the #1 priority in building a system. I'd certainly rather just use my earplugs when riding long distance on my motorcycle and keep my hearing in tact for future sessions with my (well-balanced) systems.
Marco |
Unsound, don't have to wait for that long I say I agree with you right now :-))))
The two major signal conversions in the audio play back systems are: medium to electrical (CD/LP --> analog signal) and electrical to mechanical (speakers). It is the latter that is most difficult to be made right and most relevant to the receipants--our ears.
Abe |
Do we have match? If Rsbeck is just stuttering, Abe_av might be in agreement. 12 days and 62 posts later. |
Marco, I'll be the first one to say that we haven't found measurment techniques that can truly identify the complete listening experience, especialy speakers. As compelling as they are, I didn't mean for my "argument" to be soley based around those specs. The point was that unless you believe that all the other components all share the the same deviations, speakers/rooms demonstrate the greatest variablity in the audio chain. I think that holds true whether you want to measure it or not. As for your choice of systems, I think a better comparison would be "Close-N'- Play" through "Unsound's Reference" vs. "Albert Porter's front end-rig through the "Close-N'-Play's built in speaker. How about we make it real. While I would never actually recommend this, but, what the heck were playing here. Albert's front-end rig through your choice of new $200 speakers vs. my choice of $200 CD player through my choice of new speakers that cost the same as Albert's front-end rig. I'll take the latter. Thanks, but, you can keep the ear plugs. |
These "arguments" where some turn to extreme examples of really bad pieces of gear are absurd. Of course you can find things so flawed that they ruin the whole chain of events. That is not the question!
People who really know what happens when you try to reproduce music know the two most limiting items are the recording microphone and the speaker.
No amount of pre speaker manipulation, and I have as flexible a "front end" with my Z Systems equalization as anyone, can make an inaccurate speaker accurate, or a bad recording sound right.
If your room is reflecting sound waves in a flawed manner, no amount of front end or amp switching can fix it, unless you are lucky enough to stumble on a piece which has a particular drop off of frequency to compensate for the particular anomaly in your situation, and that makes that piece right for only you and your room. (Not for advice on a forum.)
Charlie |
Unsound - I was reading with rapt attention until you started with the measurements. Sorry, you lost me there. If measurements reliably did equate to the actual listening experience then reviewers would be without a job and the rags would be nothing more than diagrams and numbers.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: "Did someone just fart?"
I'll add this too: Hook up your Kenner Close-N'-Play turntable to you favorite flavor of amplification, lets say it's Lamm tube gear. Pair that marvelous combo off with a suitably decadent speaker choice that says to everyone, "....Don't fuck with me, God made these speakers and you can hear his/her message in every note played through them! Oh, and they cost me a whole butt-load of cash too.....enough to pay for two years at Harvard." Let's call this system "Unsound's Slightly Compromised Reference"
OK, now let's build another system using the same sensational Lamm amplification but this time we'll swap out the Kenner Close-N'-Play turntable front end with, perhaps Albert Porter's front-end rig but now play the whole thing through a pair of speakers with at least a similar efficiency as the first, but this set was purchased from the back of a van somewhere on the Lower East Side from some moke named Vinny for all of $93. Will call this system "Nrchy's Making the Better Argument"
So, if you had to live with one of these two systems for the rest of your life without changing either, Which one would you prefer to listen to music on? No tweaks either. You get to replace the needle on the Close-N'-Play when it wears out....I think you can get them at the Fabric Store. For those of you who'd take the Unsound Reference I have a great resource for some custom moulded earplugs!!!
Marco |
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Nrchy, of course I can't disagree. From the postion of the listener, it doesn't matter where the corruption comes from. I just think it's more likely that the most corruption will come from the speaker/room. How many components other than speakers measure worse than 20-20k Hz +/- 3 db? I think it fair to guess, not too many. Yet most speakers, even highly touted very expensive ones can't manage that in anechonic chambers, never mind the wildy unpredictable rooms that most audiophiles have to contend with. Hence the challange to find a speaker whose foibles irritate the least and radiate in such a pattern not be have the room further excasperate the corruupted signal forced into it. Even this argument doesn't make me correct, as I suspect you've already decided. Hey, there are many paths to the same destination. |
The point is that if the signal can be transfered to the speakers with a fair degree of accuracy that the speakers will have something of quality with which to work.
Garbage in Garbage out! If the signal is so corrupted when it arrives at the speakers, it doesn't matter how good the speakers are, it will not sound good, or should I say correct?!? |
Nrchy, we've been down this path before. While speakers can't improve the signal it recieves (digital correction excluded) they are the most likely culprit to intertwine with a room in such a way to distort it more than any other resonably performing component. And by the same logic no component can improve what was put on the recorded medium (equalization(?) & digital correction excluded) to begin with. There seems to be more consistantcy of performance amongst other like components than speakers. You may disagee with the opinons of others, but, that alone doesn't make them "incorrect". |
c'mON Nrchy, nothing has any effect on the signal until it arrives at it! An amp has no effect until the signal arrives at it. How can that make the amps more important than any other part? What type of logic is that? |
Is it safe to assume that many people (incorrectly) choose speakers as the most important because they are the most flawed piece of gear in the system?
Why would people choose as most important a piece that has least to do with the reproduction of the original signal?
Do speakers retreive the signal from the source? Do the transmit it to the pre-amp? Do they process the signal and output it to the amp? Do they amplify it so it is loud enough to be heard? Do they transmit the signal from the amp to the binding posts?
So they have no effect on the signal until it arrives at the cabinet. How can they be more important than anything ahead of them? |
Any of these, plus amplification/preamplification can screw up the sound. If the system sounds bad, the only thing that is important is how you can fix it. Whatever is making YOUR system sound like crap is number 1 in importance and in every system sounding like crap (or to be more P.C., unsatisfactory) that is something different. So, I am not a fan of ranking the importance of equipment in a sound system or cost allocation in a system. The right amount to spend on a piece of equipment is exactly enough to achieve your sonic goals for the system and not a cent more! There are many paths to a great-sounding system and many paths are not super-expensive. Equipment matching and speaker placement are everything. The toughest trick, I think, is going to a stereo store, listening to a particular component in the store's demo system, isolating and assessing that particular component's sonic quality and its sonic qualities from the rest of the demo system and then determining whether and how those qualities will complement your existing system at home while not making a mistake in judgement! |
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Eldartford, you don't agree that Jmcgrogan2 and Subaruguru agree? Ha! I suppose your right, I'm wrong by default. Other forums beg to agree to disagree. Here on Audiogon, we disagree to agree. All in all very disagreeable. Ha! |
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Bingo, shut the site down. We actually have 2 audiophiles who agree. |
1. 5. 4. 2. 3. Everybody knows how bad a cubic room sounds, for example, and speakers ARE the hardest to get linear IN a room. The source is next. Power has slipped upward above other cables, as my experience building PCs in the past two years has proven to me, as well my experience with dedicated lines, although good ICs and speaker cables are still important to get right. Better to rank: (1+5), 4, (2+3) as they function more as groups IMO. |
Eldartford, while your suggestions don't fit the given paramters and I don't necessarily agree with your priorities, I think you are on to something. It's interesting how often more is invested in pre-amps with a more generous budget. |
I think that the order of importance changes as you go up the price scale.
For a system below $1200, the speakers will be the limiting factor. (Disc player, $250, Amp,$400 Magnepan MMG, $550). Going up in cost, I would still put money into better speakers up to about $2000 in the speakers alone, at which point improved source, Disc player/phono pickup would probably get more results than better still speakers. Around $3500, the low cost (but decent) amplification would begin to be the long pole in the tent. When you get to $6000 or so, personal preferences begin to dominate, and what's most important for one person isn't for another. Room design and treatment may offer dramatic improvement, but is not an option until you are way up on the cost scale. (Lots of "Bang" but lots of "Bucks" too). |
One week and still no consensus. |
Yes, I still believe speakers are the most important,
but I put the others in a slightky different order. |
Changed your mind, Rsbeck? |
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The "synergy of the system" is what most of us are after, anything weak in the chain will deafeat the purpose. I say all in No 1 slot! |
Cost is often substituted for quality when making comparisons since the relative value of a product is virtually impossible to determine.
My priority when buying my current system had speakers placed at dead-last in imporatance. Great electronics with okay speakers will sound better than great speakers and okay electronics.
For the 100th time I will state that speakers will never replace what was not retrieved from the source, and then did not survive the trip down the line to the binding posts. |
Nrchy, how can speakers be the least important if "all things being equal, or even close" is the situation. Some things are more equal than others? Lets at least agree that cost is not the method to determine degree of importance. It might take 40% of the cost of a system on speakers to get an "equal" contribution from said speakers, without stating that they are more important. |
inpepinnovations, I never said anything about using bad speakers. I said that all things being equal, or even close that speakers are the least important.
Many of these threads degenerate into foolishness because of generalizations like that. If a person is dumb enough to put poor quality speakers with their expensive electronics, they get what they deserve!
It is foolish to spend more than 20% of the cost of a system on speakers. They are not by any stretch of the imagination more important than the things in front of them.
I cannot imagine a valid arguement for putting such an emphasis on speakers!!! |
I never said the room is "most important". I said I agree with Nrchy's comments about the importance of each of the components, which he prefaced with the phrase "all things being equal". I also stressed that the question is absurd if it suggests a disharmony in the stress of balancing one component with another within a system. A poor speaker can indeed bode poorly on the rest of the system, as can any weak link therein. But if you don't have the information there, or if it is distorted or colored in the first place there is absolutely nothing you can do downstream to retrieve it. Stick ANY system you like in a piss-poor room and you will have one horrible sounding system...it simply does not matter how much you spent on it, and how carefully it was put together. Put a pile of human feces (nothing crunchy about that Matchstikman!) on a pizza and no one from any part of the world is going to enjoy it much...yes, I'm sure you will find someone who would still eat it. Again, all of this goes back to Herman's point that was the very first response here, and I will paraphrase him here: What's the f*&king point.....it all matters?! I looked up the word "system" and it has about 47 different definitions in Merriam Webster. But words that come up in many are words like "organized" and "harmonious" and "interdependent". That last one is a good one. "Interdependent"
So are threads like this one (and they are numerous) meant to point out where someone should skimp if they only have a limited budget? If so, my answer to that would be to research things carefully, purchase used from reliable sources if you are comfortable with that, and choose carefully based upon how the individual components work with each other. Always try to audition with your own ears in your own space with your own system if possible. Buying used can make this workable as you can often sell gear for what you paid if it was bought at a fair price. Speakers are tough that way and because they really are quite sensitive to other parts of the system and can be more difficult to deal with, and ship, I'd say try to hear them first before buying. I'd also ask about their expectations, musical preferences, previous experiences. I cannot see recommending to anyone to spend big bucks on one single component and then compromising all the rest of the components. It would occur to me as a waste of money. If they planned on upgrading gradually it may have some merit, but then I don't know that the order of things would necessarily represent their relative "importance" to one another. Speakers are going to be very sensitive as to what you use to amplify the signal fed to them. The room is always going to have an effect on whatever you put in there for a system and perhaps the size and shape and treatments would dictate the kind of system that may work best within it. My home room is sadly lacking and probably my one weakest link and it is NOT a good weak link to have lacking, while I'm pretty happy listening in my workspace (no WAF to deal with at work). I'm no expert here and would leave comments on this to the likes of Mr. Rives.
Yes, "interdependent" really says it all.
Marco |
Yeah, but if you eat a really bad pizza no matter how good ALL your components and room acoustics are, you'll still feel like Ca-Caaa. |
PS I realized on checking the recording that I was spelling Ottorino Respighi's name incorrectly. It is spelled correctly here. Not surprising as I have trouble spelling my own name correctly these days! It's the RAID again, no doubt. |
Nrchy - Sorry to have cut off your comeback. You've made some good points that I happen to agree with. I could also add that the 'room' issue is also at the root of many a good deal on Audiogon where someone doesn't give a component or system a fighting chance and either pairs it off with the wrong system, or compromises it's capacity in some other way like the room scenario. A good example of something like this would someone reading a review about a 3 watt SET amp and goes out and buys one to combine with his/her outstanding, rave-reviewed megabuck speaker that is only 88db efficient - well, you can bet you'll be seeing either the amp, the speaker or both for sale here on Audiogon once they hear them together. Yet each one of those components on their own is an expensive, well regarded component. Herman is quite correct...that's why it's called a "System". Not only will two identical systems not sound the same in different rooms, but they may not sound the same to two different sets of ears in the very same room. We all have different preferences and expectations of how a system should sound. That's why you can't measure this stuff with instruments that spit out numbers....that is only a small part of the story. The human end of that equation is entirely subjective.
Marco |
LOL Matchstikman. When I first moved back to NYC from school I lived in an apartment the size of one of my LaScalas!!
Resphigi's Church Windows is not opera. I don't know if Resphigi ever composed any opera's, but this is symphonic music in a kind of Medievel Neo-Classical theme. There are some absolutely amazing organ passages in that piece that shake the foundation and cause the mice to fart. I have a 45 RPM direct to disk Reference Recording that is quite remarkable. If you have a vinyl rig seek out a copy. You'll have to inquire to those far more knowledgeable than I on these subjects to find a good recording on CD....does RR still exist, and are they doing CD's? This recording is of Keith Clark and the Pacific Symphony Orchestra and is RR-15.
Best,
Marco |
Jax2, just for the record, I would love to have a pair of La Scalas, but my room is so small that my head would be inside one of them during playback. Plus, I looked up Resphigi and I am going to sample some of it. This should be good. Anyone who listens to Opera through La Scalas must know something about something. |
Nrchy & Marco, all of the arguements that you are using to prove that the room is most important can be used to prove that the speakers are most important - no matter how good the components are upstream, a poor speaker can destroy for what you worked so hard. |
Marco, I was all excited about the opportunity to defend my position, but I think you said everything I would have wanted to say.
Once the signal has arrived at the speaker nothing can be done to improve it. Lots can be done to prevent the room from destroying what you have worked so hard and spent so much money on for all this time.
No system will sound great in a poor quality room. As Marco mentioned, it is critical to put together both a good system and a good room. The issue I have is that it seems many people put together good and often expensive systems but set them up in a room that is not worthy of the system.
I think this is the issue often times when someone says I heard ______ speakers and they sounded like @#$%! Or I heard this amp and it sounded terrible, when someone else heard it in another room and thought it was the best.
I really don't believe there are two systems anywhere that sound the same, because they are in two different rooms. The room is critical to the sound of a good system. |
I believe Nrchy was inferring that if the information is not retrieved from the source in the first place, or is distorted or colored in a specific way by the source component, nothing you can do down the line is going to alter that. The room, on the other hand will effect anything and everything you present within it's boundries. It can make or break virtually any aspect of stereophonic reproduction/illusion regardless of how great all the remainder of the components in the system are. An extreme example: Stick a well assembled $50K system in a tiled bathroom and you have pretty much wasted $50K.
Marco
PS Paul W. Klipsch's witty reparte I referred to was a button he was fond of wearing, and which he marketed as a promotional tool giveaway. It reflected his feelings about a lot of what is presented as 'fact' within the audio world. It read simply: "Bullshit" |
Matchstick - It's all that RAID on my pizza's man...I think it's doing something to me.....I just can't relax anymore!! I gotta stop with the pizza's cause it's driving me nuts. So you're one of the ones putting all those mice in traction just because they fart once in a while!! You know how expensive that kind of care is for a mouse. It's driving their insurance rates sky high and they can't handle it with their tiny mouse salaries. Maybe if you listened to Resphigi more often you could get them to hold in their farts in till those really low passages that rattle your windows. I know, you'd probably still hear them, but have a heart guy, we all fart don't we?!
Marco |
Jax2, I merely just asked for the order of importance, in GENERAL terms. I never said anything about price or balance or holding back on this and not spending more on that. Relax.
As for Paul Klipsch, I am not familiar with any of his witty repartee.
By the way, I am underpaid, I do review the audio that I buy, I don't like mice(except with broken backs in a moustrap), and I am not familiar with Resphigi's work, either. Apparently, I need to get out more. |
Nrchy, If you say that the speakers are the least important BECAUSE the can't reproduce what doesn't get to them, then you can't say that the room is the most important, since it can't reproduce what doesn't get to them either! |
