First off, I think tomcarr, hit this one out of the park. Can you get better speakers, well of course you could depending on your budget, but, you must work on set up first in the room that you have chosen to put your equipment in. Keep playing with placement of speakers with in the room until you like what you hear, since you have the dedicated room. In some cases not all components have synergy together, but only through the process of elimination will you know this.
Speaker placement is the most important and getting your system to play the room is paramount. Once things are set up like you like them and it sounds good, tomcarr is right do the tweaks one at a time, like first reflection points with acoustic treatment panels, using the mirror trick for this. Do the subwoofer crawl for subwoofer placement. Never buy things like cables to fix major problems, fix the major problems first.
Cables and Power cords can and do make a difference in getting that last 10 percent of performance, but if speakers are the problem, fix this first. The goal is to get good sound without losing money through trades, just to find out if you spent the time first, you could have saved the money and enjoyed the system. I also agree with the books that tomcarr recommended and I have the Jim Smith and the Michael Fremer DVD. Legacy makes awesome speakers so if you get them I hope you enjoy them and let us know how they work out. |
You did not mention power conditioning or cables. I would start with the Denali 6000s, its in you ballpark. Then I would upgrade the power cables, speaker cables and analog and digital interconnects and $ 3000 is a decent starting point for cables. |
Pick up the Legacy Classic HD's tomorrow. I'll let anyone who's interested know what I think |
I visited the Legacy factory 20 years ago and was most impressed by the "Classic" model. Very good design... |
I listened to the Legacy Classic HD's and that is what I'm going with. I like the adjustments on Treble and Bass, nice cabinets, highly efficient with a nice bottom end. I'm not sure I'll even be using my sub.
On another note, my system sounds totally different now that i've moved it downstairs to the rec room. Lower ceilings, smaller space, with patio windows 14ft from speakers. I almost preferred the sound in my living room that is open concept with high ceilings. Go figure.
I think these speakers will be my keepers. Next, upgrading power cords. It's nice to have everyone chime in with their thoughts. |
You can do everything but
The TT set up just pick one |
so goes the challenge of being satisfied and content. Human nature is a formidable opponent. |
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Be analytical. If you are enjoying vinyl more than digital, the next upgrade should be something that benefits SACD/CD and DAC sources at a minimum.
Integrateds That I have enjoyed are Primare I32, Belles Aria and Belles Soloist.
Speakers that are easy to position and sound great include Canton and Vandersteen.
I don't have a lot of experience with sound treatments, other than speaker/listening spot experimenting, because the ones I've tried really made no difference. I guess I'm lucky that my space is so irregular. |
"I'll watch for that DVD"........
Then goes on to the more sexy, albeit more expensive stuff. This is the problem. People don't won't to address or are not willing to take the time to address the basics! This behavior will result in a lot of expensive component replacements, a lot of wondering why I have these highly rated components and I'm still not satisfied, and so on.
Good luck.
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@dhpeck - the Klipsch speakers are not that bad in general. They are usually extremely efficient. However, they are horn based speakers, which you will either like or dislike as they have their own type of sound. Some people love horn based speakers, others do not. Sounds like you have a number of speakers to audition. Have fun! |
Your best bang-for-your-buck upgrade would definitely be the speakers. You could probably find a pair of Martin Logan Spires for just over $3,000. Or Montis for just under $5,000. Used, of course. But ML's require a fair bit of space around them to work well (i.e. 3' from the rear wall, 2-3' from sidewalls). |
I'll watch for that DVD. I'm going to audition Legacy Classic HD-$5000, Klipsch Forte 3's, (I know, I know Klipsch)- $3600. There is another dealer that carries Paradigm F85's and F95's for another try. Don't know what the Paradigm cost though |
And watch Michael Fremer's DVD on turntable setup
Tom |
Focus on your room and your setup first.
Get Jim Smith's book.
Get Robert Harley's book.
Pay attention and study what you read.
Set up your gear in a dedicated listening room.
Keep working on the best setup til your system "plays the room".
Then do acoustic treatment.
Then re-evaluate your setup with minor tweaks if necessary.
Have a dedicated line run to your listening room.
Then, and only then, think about upgrading gear.
The speakers should be the first to go, IMO.
Patience, patience, patience...
Happy listening!
Tom |
The Yamaha CD-S2100 is going to be really hard to beat. You'll probably have to spend $5,000-6,000 on a DAC at this point. Or maybe something like LKS MH-DA004? Bricasti M1? PS Audio DirectStream? |
Gents, I just disconnected the Teac 501 and am using the Yammy CD-s2100 for my digital. If I notice anything at all, The Yammy may be doing a better job as a DAC than the Teac. I wonder what price point would improve the Yammy DAC in a stand alone. |
I don't the the Yamaha will accommodate DSD but I will double check. I was thinking about a DAC upgrade along the lines of SLP or Wyred4Sound. |
I was going to point out that Teac DAC, but somebody already did. I will definitely agree that Teac DAC has got to go. The Yamaha SACD player will do the same thing as the Teac DAC for your hi-res music. Just use the digital inputs on the back of the SACD player (USB / COAX / Toslink) to use it as a DAC. It will play anything up to 24/192, and I think it will play DSD if used through the USB input. If you look at the mini-dsp, I highly recommend you get an external linear power supply. At your level, the switching power supply "wall wart" that comes with it will definitely sacrifice sound quality. You could also look at the DSpeaker DSP module if you want, but it's definitely a lot more expensive. Once again, recommend an external linear power supply for that as well. Speakers are a hard thing and since I don't have experience with the Martin Logans, I will let others advise. |
I’ve heard a Magico S1 driven by VAC Sigma 160 integrated (both original versions), sounding really really dang good in a medium-ish room. Each of those are doable in the $5K-ish used range; not saying that would for sure work in your room, but in your shoes I’d be tempted to try. Could work in a near/mid-field arrangement. Some bronze S1’s just came up FS here (no affiliation), which is what reminded me of that nice system.
As for the Clarify arm -- yeah I’ve seen that arm easily popped out of the groove by footfalls and even energy from nearby big speakers (in the same room as the S1 / VAC system). Much more so than other arms, though possibly setup related. The Magnify arm did great, though, and I like that arm. But if you don’t have obvious problems in your setup you should be OK there. |
I used a Rogue Audio Pharaoh with the HDs when in my living room. I am very happy with it. It’s now in a smaller room on Vianna Acoustics Baby Grands, so it is versitile. |
Yes I do, they are less sensitive to location than some of my other speakers. After a flood in my theater room which is 14x24x8 I had them in my open concept first floor which sounds similar to your room and was completely untreated. They really energized the room. My wife is still mad I put them back in the theater room. The Legacy’s plus some treatment would be fantastic. I got mine at the factory as trade ins. I had them watch for a set. They called in 2 weeks......
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DvdKitch, do you think Focus HD placement would suffice about 10 feet apart? they would sit on each side of the fireplace- away from the wall of course
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- I have Legacy Focus HD speakers which I like very much but you must be 12 feet or more back from them for proper blending. That was in the set up instructions and I agree. For music listening, I don't prefer a sub with them. I do use subs for movie use. You have some very nice equipment. I have benefited greatly from room treatments from ATS and diffusers from Decware.
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I somewhat agree with Shadorne. I don't think your speakers are terrible, but do think you could improve significantly in that department.
Cheers,
Tim |
The advice others are giving you is valid and correct. My statement to you is; you spend $6,000 on your integrated amp and CD player, which is fine, yet you only spend $2,000 for your speakers. The most important component in a system, IMO. I would up grade my speakers for starters. |
If you did move the system downstairs, there are cheap ways to tame glass (Marigo dots, wood blinds etc,) and the TV (just move the speakers out so that the tweeters are a foot in front and cover TV when critical listening ( I use a dog bed with a nice covering over its 6 inches of foam) or better move speakers out another few feet from TV. Then you could treat first reflection without worry about wife. I also agree on auditioning another pair of speakers, at 5 k budget for speakers much to choose from used or new
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thanks dweller and jmols i'll check them out
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Integrated for $5000 or less: Balanced Audio Technology VK-300SE with a pair of "DR" 6H30 driver tubes ($600 upgrade if they are still available). Look for a VK-300SE with a serial number ending in 400 or greater (manufactured within the last seven years). I'm not saying the older ones are bad but this unit in production for over twenty years (I believe). Better yet, get a VK-3000 if you can find one.
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Thanks Roberjerman. I usually listen to SACD/CD's balanced to amp (not through DAC). Only use the DAC for Hi Rez music. |
The Yamaha at $3000 is fine! To better it you would need to spend considerably more on a separate pre/power amp! Again I say the biggest improvement will be changing the speakers - not the electronics or signal source! |
Sell all the Martin Logan gear. Sell the Teac (the Yamaha SACD player sounds better by itself - no need for a separate DAC!). Speakers ARE the weak link here. I recommend from my own experience buying a pair of Ohm Walsh's (the box speaker guys will hate me for this, but I stand by my YEARS of experience with the Walsh technology!). Easy to place, accurate bass, 3-d imaging to-die-for! And reasonably priced (about $3k). Call John Strohbeen in Brooklyn, NY. He's been building and selling various Walsh speakers for 30+ years! DISCLAIMER: I have NO association with John's company, just a VERY satisfied user! |
My local audio store carries the Legacy brand, I believe made in America, I'm going to give the classic HD's and the Focus SE's a listen since my speaker price range would be about $5000.
any thoughts on an integrated amp that is $5000 or less? |
I rate all your gear an 8 or 9 out of 10 except the speakers which are a 3 and the amplifier a 6. Frankly these speakers are terrible. http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=834%3Anrc-meas...Every plot looks awful. Tons of tweeter compression and distortion. Massive scoop in the lower mid range. Distortion across the mid range at only -20dB (extremely audible). Frankly there is little of merit in this design and obviously a total embarrassment to ML which normally make excellent gear. This looks like it was built by somebody else (In China) and then branded ML. |
are you referring to setting the turntable on an "anti vibration" type platform? I was waiting for someone to chime in on the speakers. It was my gut feeling my sources might shine a bit more with better speakers. Again, nothing screams negative on the system, but I can't help but to feel I'd like to hear more. Acoustic treatments make a lot of sense, I'm not sure that's going to work in my living room.
I know everyone has a different opinion, but I've heard to spend twice on speakers compared to the amp. |
You have some nice gear, but with $12K upstream gear feeding into $2K speakers, I’d look hard at the latter as the weakest link. And I really like the Clearaudio Performance DC table, but that full magnetic-bearing Clarify arm really needs good isolation underneath it -- if not, you might be better off swapping out for a traditional gimbal arm. |
can you post pics on the sight. I'd love to include a picture of how it's set up. |
you know I checked out the room correction sight, and i can't see any of that being practical for my living room that I share with my wife! I've thought about moving my system down to my rec room that is approx 15ftx25ft, but the speakers would be on each side of a 65inch tv and facing a patio door and windows 25ft back. what to do! |
make sure your CD player and turntable are isolated from vibrations. Make sure your speaker spike reach thru the carpet to the sub-floor. Make sure to tame any reflections from side walls and corners...room-treatments or corrections as Erik stated. |
Thanks Erik, I'll check it out.
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Go to GIK acoustics where they will give you all sorts of great advice on your room. You can post pictures and floor plans. http://www.gikacoustics.com/The other thing to consider is improving the sub to speaker and sub to room integration. Best to do acoustics first, but after, consider a DSP speaker solution such as a miniDSP https://www.minidsp.com/to improve the blend as well as the output of the sub. Best, E |
Thanks for the response Erik,
well, I'm a complete novice here. It's not an ideal set up. The system is in my living room where ceilings are 11 feet high, room is approx 25ftx25ft, however it's open concept into kitchen area and just to the side of my system is a tile foyer about 25ft x 15ft to the front door, lots of windows in front and also in living room, although the speakers aren't facing the windows. The sub is set up only a few inches from one of my speakers. Sub placement is limited to near speakers since my basement has finished ceilings and would make wiring impossible |
Related to room acoustics, what kind of EQ / room correction is present for the sub?
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What about your room acoustics??
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