charles1dad, interesting that you referenced dlcockrum yet were mute with regard to teeshot's more relative post.
The extra power beyond the minimum recommended would only be needed to provide higher dB output for a given room size. In that sensitivity decreases (and increases) proportionally with impedance in speakers such as the Thiels it's prudent to be mindful of actual power output in the given circumstances.
In the case of a speaker with extended bass output such as the CS5's it might be fair to assume that that room size wouldn't be all that small to begin with.
If everything is performing as it should be, and depending on the desired volume output in the given room size, other than increased dynamic range, decreased potential for distortion and clipping and with that, less likelihood of speaker driver damage; there is no reason to expect the higher power amp to necessarily sound better, or visa versa . |
Friends Charles and unsound,
I am missing the point of contention here. Sorry. I use and prefer a SS high-current amplifier than doubles down with the 5is (unsound) yet find that considerations outside the realm of measured/measurable specs are ultimately determinant of the level of my listening satisfaction (Charles). Are these things mutually exclusive or even remotely at odds with each other?
I mean absolutely no disrespect to either of you as I hope you know.
Best to you both as always,
Dave |
Teeshot's post is no more or less relevant than Dave's post, both are based on actual owner experience. The significance of Dave's comments is he had both amps on the same speaker and got the results he did. The point is one must listen when ever possible (easier said than done sometimes) . It would serve no purpose to downplay Dave's results because they may counter one's expectation of what works well.
The responses on this thread clearly show that there is no consensus on what works best driving the various Thiel speakers. This type of outcome is predictable. Dave is no more right (or wrong) than teeshot. They reflect Thiel owners with different meaningful perspectives to share on this o
pen discussion forum. This should be helpful to those considering owning a pair of Thiels. There're several viable pathways to success with them. Charles |
charles1dad, the OP originally asked about 3 different amplifiers, later on it was revealed that he was planning on using these amps with the Thiel 3.7's and/or the Theil 7.2's. After that the OP added other amps for consideration. Teeshot reported experience with both the OP speakers and one of the amps the OP had questions about in combination with those very speakers.
Dlcockrum's posted about different speakers with different amplifiers. |
Dlcockrum, as I hope my posts have clearly suggested: not from my perspective.:-)
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Any Audionet Max users around ?
These monoblocks are seriously beefy and could probably drive CS 3.7 and 7.2s with ease and finesse.
Audionet are known to make top notch products, might have the opportunity to audition these in Munich this year.
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Just to be plainly clear to all, I intend no contentious element at all. Hopefully a friendly and interesting debate regarding the various experiences of happy Thiel owners who have success with various power amplifiers. Charles |
No problem Charles.
Let's keep this thread alive and informative.
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Same motive with me Thieliste. Your thread caught my attention due to your interest in Ypsilon components. Every time I've heard them they have delivered truly wonderful and natural sound. I'm curious to read how your home audition with the Aelius mates with the Thiels. Charles |
I spoke with a Stockholm Ypsilon dealer and he told me the Aelius sound extremely transparent.
I just hope there is a bit of warmth too for the Thiels.
My distributor will be dropping the Aelius ll and plug them to my system in the morning and we will do the auditions in the afternoon.
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Great summation Mitch though I must add that Fremer’s review of the BHK’s was done via unbalanced inputs. Honestly I don’t think the review was worth doing under those conditions. Like road testing a Lamborghini on low test gas or winter tires. Sure it gives you some sense but hides the real performance potential. The manufactures response said the same thing, that the balanced input sounds considerably better, and fixes and bass deficiencies Fremer (who I happen to really like) heard in his unbalanced system. Also the mosfets are N Chanel which is different than typically used and offers lower distortion and other advantages over traditional designs.
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thieliste, I used Both Parasound JC-1 monoblocks then (mainly) Krell FPB 650M monoblocks. I always felt the JC-1s were having a little trouble when pushed with the 7.2 speakers. I never had that feeling with the Krells. Also, I thought about trading in my 7.2s for the 3.7s but for some reason always like the 7.2s more. |
Tom did you trade in your CS 7.2s for the YG Annats ?
What amp would you recomment to a CS 3.7 - CS 7.2 owner ?
Audionet Max very good ?
Thanks,
Brice
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I completely agree that tubes should be in any system in which 3.7s are the loudspeaker. I got great results with a tube preamp mated to a high current solid state amp. With good source material such a setup performs at a level with systems costing more IMHO. With poor source material though 3.7s are an unforgiving mistress.
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I've been very happy with the D'Agostino Classic Stereo driving Magico.
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teeshot: "I completely agree that tubes should be in any system in which 3.7s are the loudspeaker. I got great results with a tube preamp mated to a high current solid state amp. With good source material such a setup performs at a level with systems costing more IMHO. With poor source material though 3.7s are an unforgiving mistress."
Exactly. Perhaps even more so with the 7.2s due to that 6k peak. Same goes for amps with a hot treble region or a lean overall balance.
Best to you teeshot,
Dave
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I think you’ve made your point Charles and we all agree. Listening is the best way to choose an amp but specs are not meaningless. The only remaining problem is that sometimes you need to listen for weeks or months to really get the sound of an amplifier and decide it’s the right one. I don’t think Thieliste’s dealer will be willing to hang out that long. |
Tomcy6,
Good point in regard to long term listening and living with a component. A short term home audition is useful and beats no opprotuhnity to audition. Thieliste can achieve some degree of valuable insight with the Aelius paired with his Thiels.
Charles |
scar972 i've been looking for you to have your opinion on the D'agostino Classic stereo as you're probably the only owner on this forum.
Can it compete with some much bigger boys quality wise ?
What kind of preamp should i consider with this kind of amp if i don't go the hybrid's route ?
I've been looking at the Dartzeel NBH-18NS with phono stage on the SS side or the VAC Signature MKlla with phono stage on the tube side.
Source wise there should be no problem as i'm heading towards the Totaldac d1-Twelve + server (4 box version).
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With a source of the Totaldac d1Twelve’s quality, that’s an excellent start for the signal pathway. I can vouch for the VAC Signature preamplifier. A good friend owned it for 4 years and I heard it over hundreds of hours during that period. It is a true top tier component. iit "makes music " if you know what I mean.
Charles |
Yes Charles VAC makes some of the finest tube linestage out there.
The only brand that i can think of that could surpass the VACs is Robert Koda but out of reach for most of us.
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French reviewer Joel Chevassus I believe introduced the Totaldac to the public with his 6 Moons review a few years ago. He did an Audiophile-magazine. com review comparison of the Swiss Nagra Jazz and Canadian Coincident Statement Line Stages. He was "highly" impressed with both. It'd be interesting to know his thoughts of these two vs the VAC Signature preamplifier.
Charles |
Well i will have the Nagra Jazz for the home audition of the Ypsilon Aelius ll.
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You are certainly taking the path of superb quality.
Charles |
thieliste, I had a brief stop with Harbeth speakers, SHL5 and 40.1s. Then moved up the YG line. This is my third pair of them. Carmel, Kipod II signature and now Anat III signature. The AudioNet amps are the finest amps I have heard or owned. You can message for more info if you like. They have plenty of power for either Thiel speaker you mentioned. There are a ton of reviews of both the AMP and MAX monoblocks. |
Thanks tom, i will investigate on the Audionet Max and it's matching preamp.
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Thieliste, I highly recommend the Dan D’Agostino classic stereo amplifier for your setup, I also believe you get what you pay for, thus the classic stereo amplifier is more expensive, cheers |
Hi audiolabyrinth,
What cabling do your recommend? ;>)
Dave
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audiolabyrinth is the Tara Labs specialist.
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I was being a smarty pants ;) |
I've always considered Pass Lab to be one of the best solid state amp designer in the industry, having owned and listened to many of their XA and X models, I'd have to say the D'Agostino is on the same level. Never had extensive experience with any of the other amps mentioned beside listening at RMAF so I won't compare.
For a high powered amp it is very musical, it is on the warm side of neutral but not as warm as the Vac Phi 200 I previously owned and closer to the modified Audio Valve Challenger I still own using KT120.
Bass is tight and powerful when the music calls for it but with most material it is well textured and doesn't reveal itself as a high power amp. Never heard any hardening of the highs as the Absolute Sound review suggests, but how can they say an amp at this price is complete when there are so many much more expensive including other models from D'Agostino. Soundstage is noticeably deep, the width is consistent with other SS amp I've heard. Detail is excellent!
Overall, it is musical, refined, and and I'm a happy owner. This amp does require an extended warm up time similar to tubes especially if you don't listen often like I do.
For preamp, I would go VAC just because I'm currently using a tube pre and it's working for me.
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Scar972, enjoyed reading your post, very accurate. |
scar972 very good description of the D'agostino Classic amp thanks very much, it will serve everyone considering this amp.
So with this amp it is wise to consider a good tube preamp like VAC or VTL.
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I have no doubt the
D'agostino Classic Stereo Amp sounds excellent. The Ken Kessler hi-fi news review compares the sound of the Classic Stereo favorably to (or, in the ballpark of) D'agostino's Momentum amp.
I observed the lab report in the hi-fi news
review indicated the amp does not double power from 8 to 4 to 2 ohms. There is plenty of power, no doubt, but it seems they may have played with the power specs a bit, i.e., underplaying the 8 ohm power to indicate a doubling into 4 ohms but, in fact, the results indicate the output is less than 600 wpc into 4 ohms, or about 150% of the output into 8 ohms.
The other thing I was curious about in looking at the pictures of the insides of the amp, was the absence of either big capacitors or lots of medium-sized capacitors. There are four 6800uf storage caps mounted on each channel's board, and some smaller caps, but there appear to be like 16 output devices per channel so I am surprised there is not more capacitance provided. It is possible there are other caps that I cannot see in the picture but it looks like there is a lot of empty space between the two boards and the associated heat sinks they are mounted to.
I guess I am used to the two huge (think 24oz Colt 45 tall-boy) capacitors in each of my Clayton monos (but that may not be a fair comparison since the Claytons are biased in Class A) or the 14 or so medium sized caps per side in my David Reich designed McCormack DNA-2 LAE. Both of those amps are also rated at 300/600 wpc.
There is a dealer located near a city I travel to for work so if I get to hear the
D'agostino Classic Stereo Amp I will report back. If I were looking for similar power, it would be on my list to look at. |
Good observations mitch2, let us know when you can make an audition.
I wonder how the D'agostino classic would do against the Karan KAS 600.
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By the way i have decided that i will purchase a pair of Thiel CS 7.2 as soon as i find a pair for sale.
Therefore i have to take this into consideration for my amp selection.
Need an amp that will drive both 3.7s and 7.2s with ease and refinement.
The D'agostino classic amp would be a good starting point for some years until i can upgrade to the Momentum monoblocks.
If by any chance the Ypsilons can handle both of these speakers i would rather go the Ypsilon route.
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Thieliste, not sure you want to hear this, however, each time I pull up Thiel 3.7 or 7.2 on YouTube, nearly every video there was krell on these speaker's, I mind you, they sounded damn good to me, I understand opinions are just that, an opinion, I believe you will have a smile for a long time after extensive break-in of the Dan D’Agostino classic stereo amplifier, btw, Dan himself helped me with my amplifier, I have the only modified krell 700cx out there, this was completed December 2014, hugely better than a stock 700cx, so yes, I'm a Dan D’Agostino and Nelson pass fan, cheers. |
mitch2, underrating the 8 Ohm output to let the lower impedances appear to double is not a new trick. |
Thieliste, not sure you want to hear this, however, each time I pull up Thiel 3.7 or 7.2 on YouTube, nearly every video there was krell on these speaker’s, I mind you, they sounded damn good to me, I understand opinions are just that, an opinion 1990’s videos. It’s 2017! I’m a Krell fan, owned 3 and last FPB600 ... great in its time Current SS is in a different world ... no comparison! The best I heard 7.2 was at Stereo Shop on Mass Ave in Arlington, MA driven by a full stack of McIntosh.
If by any chance the Ypsilons can handle both of these speakers i would rather go the Ypsilon route.
I would definitely demo before purchase. |
dlcockrum do you think i could drive CS 7.2s with a Classé audio Ten ?
I'm looking for a very affordable solution to drive CS 7.2 momentarily.
I saw a Classé audio Ten for $600.
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Hi thieliste, I started by hi-end journey with a DR-10 driving Apogee Stages. That amp was so flat and lifeless than I took it back to the dealer and paid the 2X+ difference to get the DR-25. Night and day difference in those two. Still have the DR-25 and have used it for long periods to drive my 5i’s. Solidly built, musical, with plenty of current and as reliable as they come. The darker sound as compared to my DR-9 and Krell would likely work well to minimize the audible effect of the 6k peak of the 7.2s IMO. The Ten, Fifteen, and TwentyFive were the next models following Dave Reich’s departure from Classe’. Glen Grue made some modifications to the input stage of Dave’s "DR" designs and they are generally said to be more lively, open, and dynamic sounding than the DR-10/15/25. http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/1194classe/index.html#GCmxCxR9G3VUHeez.97 The Fifteen was considered the sweet spot of the line and would work very well for you as a temporary solution (if not more). Can’t say about the Ten. Sorry. BTW- should you decide to buy one, use the SE (RCA) inputs as the XLR inputs use an opamp in the circuit that kills the sound. Apparently, Reich was forced to add it on by Grue after the fact and it shows. Best to you thieliste, Dave |
Hi Dave,
Opamp in the circuit kills the sound, good warning/advice Dave. I'll acknowledge that there may be some good sounding opamps available. I think generally speaking most audio components are better off without them. Interesting that two amplifiers (DR10 and DR25) from the same company can vary so greatly in their respective sound quality.
Charles |
Hi Charles,
My DR-10 sample (NIB) could have been defective. I had heard the Stages at the dealer with the DR-25 (that I ended up with) and the sonic differences were profound with the Stages in my room at the time.
Never regretted trading up to the DR-25 as it is a benchmark of amplifier performance with difficult-to-drive loads IME.
Best to you Charles,
Dave |
Dave,
Your impressions regarding the Classe' models got me curious and I did a discussion search. Nearly unanimous agreement with you of the DR10 being definitely inferior to the DR25 model. Your response to Thieliste is àccurate and apparently widely held.
Charles |
Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. ;>)
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Thanks Dave for your advice, i will check if i can find a Fifteen or even a DR-25 who knows.
I have another question, do you think i could use my CAP-151 as a preamp with one of these stereo amps or should i sale it and buy a real preamp ?
I know that the CAP-151 can be used as a preamp only but how good is it's preamp section ?
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Or should i not buy anything and try to drive the CS 7.2s with the CAP-151 ?
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How about the Musical Fidelity A5 integrated ? i've seen one for $1K.
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Hi thieliste,
It is too bad that you are so far away. I could fix you up with my old DR-6 pre and the DR-25 until you get settled. A great combo.
I would think that the CAP-151 would pretty good as a preamp via the pre out. No experience with Musical Fidelity.
Best to you thieliste,
Dave |
thieliste-
demo the Audionet gear. It is on my short-list as well. Happy Listening!
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