How in the world are pops and tics not normal in vinyl playback? It’s part of the medium as it is a contact sport so to speak. @audioguy84 Many phono stages generate ticks and pops on their own, caused by poor high frequency overload margin, related to the excitation of that resonant peak I described earlier. Plus its useful to keep in mind that on any LP project a test pressing is made and the producer has to sign off on it prior to the pressing run. One of the things he’s signing off on is the surface quality. I’m very used to not hearing any ticks and pops on entire record sides as the phono section I use deals with the pesky electrical resonance issue by having a good HF overload margin. This has nothing to do with bandwidth BTW! |
Yes Audioguy, noise is the demon of vinyl playback and it is always going to be there (although the computer wizards are desperately trying to program it out) But, it can go from obnoxious to inaudible (as long as the music is playing) There are several contributing factors and if all of them are optimized vinyl, as many of us have noticed is a wonderful medium.
Stylus alignment, clean records, good pressing, no static, the right equipment and cables etc. |
Just for data purposes around the issue of capacitance in this particular issue -
I asked AudioQuest support some time ago about capacitance in their cables, and was told they have 40pf per meter of capacitance. Not sure I believe it is that low, but if true it is quite good. I use AudioQuest Big Sur for my phono cables and enjoy them very much.
I believe the Arcam A28 has 100pf of capacitance in its phono stage (its not published that I could find, but looking at the schematic that is what I see) - so with an AudioQuest cable of 1 meter, that would present 140pf capacitance to the Nagaoka.
The Black Cube Statement claims the same 100pf of capacitance so with the Black Cube in MM mode the Nagaoka would see the same amount of capacitance.
Given this and the fact that with the built in stage sounds very good and is very quiet with the same cables, I am not sure the issue in this case is cables; and given the Cube's reputation, I suspect something is not right with this specific cube;
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If I may piggyback on the OP thread, coincidentally I was about to open a discussion on the capacitance VS shielding subject.
Ralph is totally correct on the capacitance subject which is something I discovered on my rig with shielded cables, hum and other artifacts are present. On the other hand Chakster has a valid argument, with unshielded cables my TT makes pops on the right channel with no vinyl playing and a radio station gets induced on the left channel, funnily enough only with a Stanton DJ MM cart coupled, with the DL-301 mk2 MC don't get the radio station or the pops go figure, this is with no vinyl playing.
So where do we compromise? Apparently some shielded cables can achieve low capacitance too but these are rare.
Any of you with experience in this subject.
Trying to make sense of Bob Dylan at the moment, never been a big fan, good night guys.
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@audioguy
read what the op is saying -- his lp surface noise is much much more prominent with his switching out only the phono stage
which is why we are helping him think through why this may be the case |
How in the world are pops and tics not normal in vinyl playback? It's part of the medium as it is a contact sport so to speak. You will never eliminate them entirely so why fret about it. If your hearing this sort of thing on a pristine brand new record, then yes, a possible issue. However, play any used records and you will hear some pops. Tics, clicks, and some surface noise. I don't get it really, it comes with the territory. I personally am not bothered by this, as long as the music sounds good. Lastly, try cleaning the records that are a bit noisy on a real record cleaner, one with a vacuum or better yet an ultrasonic cleaning. What you are also hearing is possibly static electricity. Try a carbon fiber audioquest brush and/or a zerostat gun. |
@emilm
if you can't get in contact with lehmann in germany, the ortofon folks in upstate new york are the lehmann importer here in the usa, they have a very knowledgeable tech who can also assist you... he was very helpful to me in the past
presuming you are in the usa |
I thought capacitance for cables didn't matter with a MM Cartridge , only MC. @vinylvin , @emilin Actually it matters quite a lot! With a high output MM cartridge the inductance tends to be rather high. This in tandem with the capacitance of the tone arm interconnect cable connecting into the phono preamp results in a resonant peak. If the cable capacitance is high (as is often the case with many regular audio cables) the peak will be forced down in frequency, and can easily be somewhere at the top of the audio band. This will make the system brighter and more susceptible to ticks and pops which tend to have a high frequency nature. The suggestions about checking loading and overall gain were good ones. But we now know that the gain is 41dB which is fine. With regards to loading though, the cable capacitance plays right into that. Take a look at this page: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.htmlPlay with the numbers in the calculator, including the default. The link I provided earlier for the tonearm/phono cable from Blue Jeans has about 12pf/foot; you can see by dropping in 36pf for a 3 foot run that the resonance is pushed up higher, outside of the audio band. So that is where you start; after that you work on whatever loading is needed. It is also a good idea to contact Lehmann: I think you will find that they confirm everything I've said on this thread so far. |
Dear @emilm : Do it you a favor and forgeret about that IC cable capacitabnce for the moment.
First than all the Lehmann must be perfectly set up for the Nagaoka 5mv. MP-110 cartridge. Your phono stage comes with several alternatives for set up and for what I read in this thread you still are not an " expert " about.
So my advise is the same as other gentleman in this thread: put in direct contact with Lehmann explain it your system issues with that cartridge and follow his instructions. With out the rigth Lehmann set up with that cartridge all other advises here are useless and futile.
Don't waist your time or money in cables till you make the Lehmann advises. Only my opinion.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
emilm, Yes, atmasphere is talking turntable to phono input. You also want to keep the cables as short as you can. |
Ejb14 is correct. There are several other settings that the Black Cube has, but must be done from internally on the board. To include, as mentioned, a gain jumper. However, it is not really a “jumper” that is easy to swap, at least not on mine (I have the SE) it requires some surgery. |
Hmm - I looked up the manual for the Black Cube and got the gain settings from there - perhaps I saw an older or newer version. This manual talks about not only the dip switches, but also a gain jumper that adds 10db.
In any event, I also have an FMJ A28, and while its phono stage is quite good, and very quiet, my other external phono stages into the aux inputs (A Sutherland PD3D and a Music Hall PA2.2) either sound better (PH3D) or roughly equal the internal phone stage. You should get great sound with the Black Cube and this amp. I am using a Shure V15III and a Grado Gold 3 on my tables at the moment.
The A28 has a numeric volume read out, which the manual claims is in decibels when in the reference mode. I believe the internal stage is roughly 40+db of gain - so I would think the Black Cube into the Aux input and the internal phono stage should be equal in terms of loudness at the same volume setting on the A28. If they are roughly equal, and you still hear a lot more noise with the cube, then I don't think the problem is cables or the cartridge or the amp.
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ejb14 gain is set up at 41db and there is only one setting for MM.
geof3, thanks for the information |
The Black Cube is a single input with variations on the dip switches that are gain oriented. There really is only one setting for an MM cart overall. The capacitance can be tweaked, but internally. It is probable, if that noisy, the capacitance stock installed in the Cube doesn’t play very well with your cart. The nice thing about stepping up to the Decade is the ability to dial in the capacitance of an MM cart along with several gain options. It can make all the difference. You can also shoot Lehmann a note. Norbert is usually very responsive and very helpful. |
I hope you are not connecting your MP110 to the MC gain settings....
It is an MM cartridge and should be connected to the MM setting.
Try reducing the gain one step at a time. |
Ncdogdoc, thanks for clarifying that.
Ejb14, lewm and jjss, I will check the dip switch setting and let you know.
Thank you all for the input.
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Doesn’t the black cube have multiple gain settings? The overload margin on it for a MM cart is much higher than 5mv.. something like 45mv. I suspect you have the gain setting too high on the cube...set it to 36 or 46db and see how that works..
Hope this helps.
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If the Black Cube accepts up to 4.5mV officially, I doubt that 5mV from the Nagaoka would overload it to the degree that it would cause the problems mentioned.
ncdogdoc (a vet who lives in NC?) is right. The issue is the phono cables, defined as cables from cartridge to phono inputs. And someone else mentioned that MM cartridges are relatively insensitive to capacitance; it depends in part on the load resistance in side the Lehmann. It's probably 47K ohms. So one needs to estimate the capacitative load vs the recommended capacitance. It's MC types that are relatively insensitive to capacitance, in part because they usually have very much lower inductance compared to MMs, about 10,000X lower, commonly. But there are exceptions to every one of these generalizations.
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lehmann’s are superbly quiet
it is likely the cable or maybe the loading...
have you double and triple checked your dip switch settings and make sure they are correctly set for mm 47kohms? they can be tricky -- the owner's manual shows diagrams but it can be hard to tell which is up/down as depicted
it might also be the lehmann is providing more gain than your prior phono stage |
emilm,Ralph and others were discussing the cables from the tonearm to the Lehman. Not as important from Lehman to your Arcam. |
Hi Ralph,
Thanks for the advice. Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing. All the time we have been talking is about the cables that connect phono to preamp, correct?
Emil
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Hi Chackster,
the question is about the cables that connects phono to pre-amp.
the other cables are with the turntable, vintage Technics 1900 . |
From the spec sheet the max input on the Lehman is 4.5mV and the Nagaoka outputs 5mV, so the phono stage overloads (distorts) when it encounters clicks on the record.
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I thought capacitance for cables didn't matter with a MM Cartridge , only MC. |
But shielded cables per se do not have low capacitance, compared to unshielded wire of the same type and length. So the shielding can be a trade off if you are looking for the lowest capacitance. But let’s hear what Ralph has to say to the OP. My question would be what is the phono gain of the Lehman black cube?And for that matter, what is the additional gain of the line stage to which it is connected?
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You need a shielded phono cable for a phono stage (from your turntable to a phono stage). Phono cable is not a regular interconnect cable.
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Do I need a special cable for the phono stage? @emilm Yes! Most regular cables have too much capacitance. This causes a high frequency peak and certainly can emphasize ticks and pops. A proper phono cable will have a capacitance of about 20pf (picofarads) per foot and you won't be running more than about 1 meter, or else you'll want to find a cable with lower capacitance. This is the sort of thing you're looking for: https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm |
Hi Millercarbon,
No, the noise is more then the improvement to a point that I don't use the phono anymore. |
Hi Mike and Ralph,
My cartridge is Nagaoka MP-110.
My cables are AudioQuest regular interconnects. I can't see which model exactly.
Do I need a special cable for the phono stage?
Emil |
Is the noise you're hearing proportional to the improvement in detail? |
Is this a common problem with added phono stages as opposed to integrated ones No. So let's start with what cartridge do you have? Also, what kind of cable (phono cartridge cables should be low capacitance)? |
Hi Emil, I do believe you are overloading it. What cartridge are you using and how are you loading the Lehman? Ralph from Atma-Sphere should be able to help you with a solution.
Mike |
