Problem with phono stage

emilm, Do you mean to say that after all that, you found you could cure your problem by changing the physical location of the Black Cube?  I hope that simple solution continues to please you.  In the meantime, I don't think the discussion was a waste of time.  If you pursue the content of the responses you got, you will have learned something.

Dear @emilm : Very good news for you and in indirect way very good news for every one to know that capacitance was not the intruder.

Every single day is a learning one for the ones that are willing to do it.

Enjoy it ! !.
R.

Excellent - glad you were able to work it out! Kudos to you and Geof!

excellent!  happy spinning!

Wow, problem solved!

Relax guys, the war is over! 

Great news ! I can't believe this ! I took Geof's info to heart about The Cube (he has the next model up the line- Cube SE) being very sensitive to RF and placement and last night I was moving it around a lot. Finally I placed it in front of the other equipment (a place where I would'n consider placing anything) and far away from all the cables in the back and... The Cube became DEAD QUIET! Because of the lack of any floor noise everything improved, detail, articulation, bass and treble extension, soundstage, you name it.
After a simple location change I was finally able to find out what The Black cube is all about.
Can you believe it?

Now, my next tread will be about a new turntable, which should be friendlier and more relaxed since it's about sound and not that much about technical issues.

Thank you all and stay safe!

Emil

So the low capacitance cable as the first step is now, a page and a half later, shown to be correct.

You can easily hear a peak at 17KHz as it influences an envelope of frequencies about it, going down to about 10KHz.

A gentleman with deep knowledge levels way higher than you and ovbiously than me says about:
" Clicks don’t inherently have a frequency because there is no repetition in the signal. That would be like asking "what is the frequency of an impulse? ""

Raul made this comment earlier which is mysterious, as its obvious that whoever he’s referring to here has no idea of what he was talking about. Obviously you can hear ticks and pops in the tweeter of a speaker; so you want that resonance to be well above the audio band so it becomes inaudible and not acting as a treble control. This is why there are low capacitance cables meant for phonograph use :)

Even welcomed. !

R.

That gives: 17khz, no problem at all.

R.

Dear @lewm  : "  I suspect Jose' has an EE background. "

Of course but not only that because he has studies ( 5 University years. ) too as: physicist and Mathematics. Additional he is an expert in digital systems/computers.

In the same way that the Essential was designed and builded to fulfill the cartridge needs and my self demanding targets in the same manner I was and am in the tonearm design and build process ( not with José. ).

As the Essential the tonearm is a true statement of audio item a true instrument level to satisfy any single cartridge needs and obviously my self needs.

Rigth now this unique tonearm ( it's copy of nothing. Is designed starting from Zero as the Essential. ) is finished and I have 3 samples working in my TTs with 3 way different cartridges. I can say it's fabulous, outstanding, unimaginable and a " dream come true " of quality level performance for say the least and again not because I did it again but .... 

In the other side, when we finished the Essential 3150 we write by hand the targets of an amplifier and the most important issue is that the amplifier is absed/founded in an all " new " output technology never used in the audio history. We don't go a head yet because my modified  monoblocks are stunning units.

I already has too ( my self with no other gentleman to my side. ) a cartridge targets design, I can mention two of those targets: output 0.05mv ( maybe even lower. ) and 30cu.

Btw, I don't know if you really know what you own in your 3160 when phonolinepreamps as: Dartzeel, Vitus, FM Acoustics, CH, D'angostino and the like can't overall beats/outperforms it.
I already listen the CH and can't do it but I don't listen the 4 chasis version of CH that could performs in different way due tha the power supply units were improved. The Vitus set you back over 70K ( phono stage plus line unit. ) and the CH 90+K and the 4 chasis over 140K prices ! !  That's what you own and nothing less.

Power supply design is critical, your 3160 unit has a more " hefty " PS than my 3180 that in reality is the same 3150 chasis and Power Supply with several improvements/up-grades in the main circuit boards.

@mijostyn , come on: is it so critical that issue? . I know is my fault.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

This from a German magazine, measurements on the MP150, a close cousin to the MP110, gave inductance of 630mH. Note also the frequency response graphs for the given load R and C. They also mentioned the MP300 in this test, and it gave near identical value for inductance, which suggests that the MP110 would measure similarly.
http://www.nagaoka-deutschland.de/pdf/TESTBERICHT%20AUDIO.pdf
This information is offered to help the OP, not to further or provoke any arguments with Raul. Other sites do quote >800mH for the MP110.


But this article may be of more help to the OP, since it does not involve understanding how inductance affects the high frequency peak that is characteristic of all MM or MI types. Here they show how the capacitance load affects the frequency response of the Nagaoka MP11, evidently a precursor to the MP110. Just know that the "capacitance load" must include the capacitance of the phono ICs + the capacitance of the phono input gain stage + any added capacitors for loading. After all this reading and researching, I am inclined to agree with Atma-sphere that the emphasis on ticks and pops which the OP experiences might be cured by changing load R or C. And this article is sort of a guide how he might do that. For sure, all these sources give high marks to the overall SQ afforded by the MP110. So high in fact that I am about to recommend it to my nephew, a budding audiophile.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/nagaoka_mp11_e.html

Wow, this makes me vertiginous. All I do is flip the power switch, sink in and listen. Does any of this matter to me?
Lewm, welcome to the, " how the heck do you interpret R" club. I think it is best to let him vent and move on. Trying to make sense out of what he is saying will give you a headache. We have recommended that he use a translator but he refuses. 

@lewm  : Btw, yes after a half a hour the class A bias settle down and the RIAA bass range too due that those teflon caps needs some time to.

The Esential ""  It's excellent from the get-go but ...." as you said/experienced it.

In the other sideSET tube designs has feedback, it does not exist no-feedback as some tube designers say.

This issue was explained to me by José and no I don't go to do it. If a designer of tube electronics wants to know about it has to learn by him self.

R.

Dear @lewm  : I don't hate you in any way, for me you are one of my close Agon true friends. That many times we can be in disagreement means nothing about our friendship/relationship. I love you man.

Yes, the tube subject today is just out of my mindn as you know I was a tube lover too for at least 10 tears: no way to come back no matters what. 

Yes, you are rigth about José and that's why you can read in the circuit boards: J&R.

You own the two MC stages version and just looking the circuit boards so kind cared of each single soldered part you know that " there " is something special. Everything was made it by us but the blank circuit boards that we bougth from Silicon Valley company.

Mijostyn could think about ego but no I'm not that kind of person, of course that as a human been I'm proud to own " something " builded by " my self " and that performs so good and addirtional to that I'm happy that exist other 7 proudly owners of our units.
This fact was really a fortuit one because the Essential was designed for my way demanding needs even Jos'e has not the Essential.

We really take care on the overall design and execution to that design even the logic " card " works excellent and it the circuit that starts to works when you switch-on the unit and for around 12 seconds one led is blinking and stops at the end of the check-upprocess that the Essential does it and if the unit has any single parameter out of our really tigth specs/tolerances the Essential just does not works.

The people that do not seen the Essential could think it's a " garage " item but yyyou know that is far away from there, that unit weigth around 27kg that at the end could means almost nothing.

Btw, do you already used the Neumann pole option in your unit?  I have to say that normally that 3.18us pole develops several problems of phase and other issues in the RIAA eq. when it's not well designed and I want to tell you that we really take care about.

That pole is way important to any LP lover because the inverse RIAA eq curve goes down/fall to infinitum after 20khz but during the recording process the RIAA emphasis that goes around 20db at 20khz and up does not goes at " infinitum " due that the cutter head at around 50khz it will be burn-in so exist a filter to stop process ( DMM can goes to 60khz. ) and it's this way as the LP comes to us and that's why all well recorded LPs does not have the rigth response over 20khz but only if we re-integrated the frequencies that goes losting/lowering leves through the inverse phono stages RIAA eq. curve. Anyway you have the option to test it.


The gentleman that always try to hit me but to increment his frustration never has success one time that I posted somewhere about the necessity that a phonolinepream has a wide frequency response over 1Mhz  like the Essential or Spectral and other units he asked why and been he a tube phono stage designer I thinked why is asking for when he must knew about and my answer was that ask that issue to K.Johnson of Spectral. It's way interesting.

Finally, the op-amps main issue. Which the real problem with: high feedback to lower distortion levels.

Feedback is a phenomenon created by mother's nature, Universe function with feedback, and is part of Newton laws. Our day by day life is full of feedback, even our brain works with.

Today op-amps improved a lot over the last 10-15 years. Analog Devices or Ti and other manufacturers improves about each single day. Even the ones I lnked here that we used many years ago in my first PLP and that cames from National ( out of market. ) and B&B whom was bougth by Ti performed really good.

The today op-amps are using NFB? yes but there are several ways to use NFB and depemnding of the skilled and knowledge levels of the designers that NFB " devil " could be not any more the way terrible " devil " of the past.
No one knows more about and how to use NFB that the expert ( true experts. ) engeneers from AD or Ti and other companies dedicated to.

Here what N.Pass says about and even that we could think that NFB is not what we want it read carefully the conclusion at the last sentence ( and this is only one audio gentleman amp designer. I will try to bring here to talk about to Wyn whom colaborated for years and designed for Analog Devices and now retired and working as a free-lance expert advisor. ):

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/audio-distortion-and-feedback/

those information comes from 2008, maybe NP could has news about and certainly he has because his First Watt amps use NFB and many people love it !.  Everything is related to the design the rigth way to use feedback. If we are totally afraid of it and I mean amp designers then could be because those amp designers just do not know yet how to " handle " it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@lewm Nagaoka is Jeweltone in Japan, I hope this link will help a bit with info and tech specs for MP models. Use google translate or google chrome browser for automatic translation. 

Ironically, even though Raul hates me, I will admit I own a 3160, and it is indeed superb in its performance.  As a tube aficionado (one reason Raul likes to attack me), I find myself not thinking about whether the 3160 uses tubes or transistors, when I am listening to it. Raul's business partner, Jose', also should be credited for the success of the design and its build.  I suspect Jose' has an EE background. When Raul says "we", he must refer to Jose' and himself.  Funnily, much like a tube preamp, the 3160 to my ears gets better after it has been in use for at least 30 minutes to an hour. It's excellent from the get-go but gets even better when it warms up.  So, Raul, how far off topic do you want to get?
Have you referenced your value for the inductance of the MP110?  I did so in one of my posts above.  If you have not done so, please enlighten me.  I am always grateful to be corrected with correct information.  800mH does indeed seem very very high for an IM cartridge. The owners manual pdf that you provided does not mention inductance, so far as I recall.

Btw, I posted this in other forum regarding phono stages:


"""  I like many phonolinepreamp in the market some of them already mentioned here: FM Acoustics, Gryphon, Spectral, CH, D'angostino, etc, etc. Yes only SS because tubes in this specific function can't do it and I owmned from humble to top design tubes electronics by around 10 years so I'm not speaking of my preferences but audio devices that its technology can in true be nearest to those targets.. This is only an opinion and I think is valid as any of your opinions.

I don't like very much to talk about tubes in phono stages but I will put an example through Aesthetix IO ( I listened the first time at A.Porter house and latter on 3 more times in other systems. ) where they say the unit has active high gain with low noise and yes it has 80db of gain that's a tribute for an all tube design but unfortunatelly failed on noise level that was measured a poor A-weigthed 57db and where the RIAA eq. deviation has ( by manufacturer spec. ) a high 0.5db swing deviation. That frequency response goes even worst because it depends of the control volumen that at different volume position different frequency response. The Lamm ones are not better but only way more expensive.

RIAA eq. frequency deviation levels is critical because in theory must be to mimic in inverse way the recording RIAA eq. to we can have a flat frequency response.
Not an easy task even for SS designs because that eq. is not a " delicated " one but goes from around -20db to +20db, this is a huge equalization with several problems not only about frequency response but phase and other issues.

Here I give you measured SS inverse RIAA eq. deviation frequency charts on very well know top SS active high gain phono stages and then we can understand my words about:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/K...7w4Jt7YB76_gYRhrCrdGU=w819-h524-no?authuser=0


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9...5F42QP3t4NJz6y276pbmI=w819-h582-no?authuser=0


https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/910Vitfig1.jpg


this last one of the 3 links came from the Vitus top of the line ( 60K+ ). You can look that starting at 500hz and below it the Vitus has a really high 20hz RIAA deviaTION OF -1.5db !! Even that J.Atkinson posted there:


"" This massive, beautifully built, two-box phono preamplifier offers almost unrivaled versatility, excellent channel matching, and almost zero RIAA error, but is not as quiet as I would have wished so expensive a product to be. ""

and more critical than that is what MF reviewed with that unit:


"" Its bass extension, control, and weight were granitic. "" how is that when in the bass range the Vitus is really poor performer ! ? ? ? !

Even JA made a comment about on that review:

"" Unfortunately, while the Vitus MP-P201 Masterpiece is well engineered, there is nothing in its measured performance that would indicate why Michael Fremer was so taken by its sound quality. ""




This next one comes from my room/system active high gain low noise phonolinepreamp:



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g...Rcb8d3mjRmnhWYmR9zeio=w819-h557-no?authuser=0     """""



that is the/my unit with " op-amps "  ! ! !  

R.

Dear @ejb 14 and friends: From where comes " stupidity ", normally from ignorance/low knowledge levels and skills.

Between 20+ years from today we made our first intent to design and build a phonolinepreamp due that what been in the market were not satisfied not only my LP reproduction demans in quality overall performance levels. My audio items that were my references in those times were units from FM Acoustics, Gryphon, ML Reference and the like.

So we started with a battery powered design with a single layer boards and using op-amps in two different ways.
We used these ones:

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/919966/NationalSemiconductor/LM607/1   ( in the plastic not metal package )  and this one:

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sbos058a/sbos058a.pdf?ts=1602967034703&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww... and the opa 2604 too.

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf/475618/Burr-Brown/OPA2604/1


passive inverse RIAA eq. using teflon caps and Caddock resistors.

I still have this unit and ( believe or not. ) performs really great with no regrets/compliants about and even today can compete with some good " names " units.



After this successfully intent ( because we had to know first if our design could works and it did it ! ! ) we put on paper the targets for a more definitive phonolinepreamp that not only worked but that could outperforms the best of the best phonolinepreamps in the market and that fulufill all the cartridge needs of any cartridge and from here born the Essential 3150 followed by the 3160 and my today unit 3180.

My first phonolinepreamp targets I still have and were writed in plain paper by hand/pen and is dated: 26-11-96 ! !

several of the original targets can't be ( yet ) achieved and some of them are almost " crazy " and for other gentlemans/designers maybe utopic ones.

Anyway here some of the acomplished targets:

The Essential 3160 is an active high gain/low noise fully discrete design that use bipolar transistors in two gain stages for MC phono stage and FETs for MM phono stage.

In reality this phonolinepreamp have three preamps instead of only one: it has a MC phono stage, it has a MM phono stage and a line level stage preamp. All this three stages are totally independent from each other.
 Each phono stage ( MC and MM. ) is designed for its self precise and specific needs.

Our design is a discrete Non-feedback, direct coupled, pure class A , current mode, true balanced ( differential ) input to output, dual mono design and fully regulated input to output.

The dual mono design only share the chasis but both channels are totally independent from each other even in the dual mono external power supply ( that use too a pure silver Kimber Kable power cord. ) that is so important to the performance on this phonolinepreamp, it has separate attenuator volume control ( that been an attenuator design that when is attenuating the SPL at the same time is lowering/attenuating the noise levels. We work with the input signal 100% SPL, no attenuation at all. ) and separate phono/line switch, impedance changes by solder resistors.

Inside parts: teflon Cu capacitors, " naked " Vishay resistors,matched transistors , hand selected parts, no internal wires ( every part, including input/output RCA/XLR connectors, are soldered directly to the four layers circuit boards. ), etc....., only the best neutral non-sound parts ( no step-up transformers, no head amps, etc.. ) and in the critical stages with tolerances at 0.001%. All parts working at no more of its 50% efficiency. A unit impossible to overload it.

A developed proprietary technique guarantee an accurate RIAA de-emphasis accuracy of +/- 0.011 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz ( Both channels ), resulting in a neutral phono stage that reproduces exactly what the cartridge generates that are in the recording.  

The result is a preamplifier combining the purity and transparency of a passive preamplifier with the speed, dynamics and drive of an active preamplifier ( Truer to the recording. )

To round off the preamplifier's RIAA capabilities, its has a switchable 3.18 us turnover point Neumann pole. ) to compensate for the cutting head preemphasis HF roll-off during the recording.



The op-amps that mentioned that gentleman were used not to amplify the cartridge signal in no single way, this signal is touched only by passive/active discrete parts. The output buffer is a metal encapsulated fully discrete design that looks as an op-amp but certainly it's not.

Due that my ML 20.6 monoblocks use in the signal input gain stages these metal encapsulated fully discrete devices ( that looks too as an op-amp ):

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/obsolete-data-sheets/MAT02.pdf

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/MAT03.pdf

we were thinking to use it because it has a first rate design but at the end we decided to make our own fully discrete bipolar discrete high gain design that was and still is a fenomenal challenge for any electronics SS designer/manufacturer..

I know that that low knowledge level ( that was the only reason he asked on those op-amps. I think? ) gentleman would like to know more about our design but this is not possible to him or any one else..

You know we in 1996 was thinking/targetting in a current mode design that today is the fashion. Yes welike what we did it and not because we did it but because is well worth our effort: very high rewards.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

   

@lewm  : You can't stop your self in the same " boring " subject:

""  MP110 has inductance of ~800mH, as per VE discussion groups.."""

I told you your sources are wrong, I stated that cartridge inductance and is lower than half your figure. Please stop to post the same or at least don't name me any more in this thread in that capacitance issue.

R.

@mijostyn : ""  ego discussing issues that have very little relevance to 90% of us...."""

not was you in your very first post in the thread who asked for and even shouited by your " friend " from you are a follower?

What are you claiming for?

R.

Well this escalated quickly, from the last few posts I think of use for the OP Mijostyn summarized

Phono stage overload, loading and lower capacitance cables have been mentioned. Does anyone have other ideas for emilm to try?

I would add if the cable in addition to low capacitance can have some shielding (always low capacitance listed by the manufacture of the cable with the shielding included) if you go DIY shielding results could be unpredictable.

A quick look at online pictures shows opamps in use in the Black Cube.  Now there are different black cubes so I may not be looking at the right one.

I used mine with Sound Smith Moving Iron and other MM carts.  I had no issues.

As to feedback it can be employed with opamps as well as transistors.  Opamps are easier to set the gain and have good common mode rejection ratios.  Transistors have to be matched.  So in lower costs products, opamps are more likely to be used.

Looking at pics of the Arcam R phono it is also using opamps.

For those that don't know how to spot a opamp look for a black square with 8 legs near the input jacks.  The part number also tends to start with OP.

A slower opamp will also be less noisier, smoother and a bit less detail.

Gain depends on the number of stages but typically expect a gain of 40 to 60 on the first stage.  That gets the signal out of the mud and allows the common mode rejection to come into play to reject noise.

IV phonos also typically use a opamps.  A resistor in series to the signal sets the current which is then gained up by the opamp. 

You can find lots of literature from Texas Instruments.

As to the debate of whether opamps, transistors, or tubes are better that is a a different subject.  There are good and bad examples of each method.

I still would address the record cleaning issue.

That is it for me.  I will leave the navel gazing to others.

Chakster, I guess the "operating principle" of the MP cartridges is not being used to "decrease inductance", per JCarr's summation, because the MP110 has very high inductance according to any info I can find on the internet.  The operating principle seems to be used to increase output, because the output of the MP110 is MM-like, even if it's not an MM cartridge.  So we have an IM cartridge that measures like an MM, both in voltage output and (high) inductance.
Raul, if the MP110 has inductance of ~800mH, as per VE discussion groups, then its resonance can fall well below 20kHz, if capacitance and R are not adjusted to prevent that.  And Mijostyn, if the foregoing is true, then it does help the OP to understand why ticks and pops may seem prominent, and it gives him some idea what to do about it.
To paraphrase Albert Einstein, it's good to keep things simple, but not so simple that a valid hypothesis is ignored.

Nagaoka makes a pretty good cartridge especially for the money. You buy one, you screw it up into your tonearm, set your phono stage up right and enjoy the tunes. It has nothing to do with stroking one's ego discussing issues that have very little relevance to 90% of us. Moving iron, moving permalloy, moving magnet. They are all capable of sounding perfectly fine and much more alike than not.
The OP wanted to know if he could reduce the noise in his vinyl playback system. Phono stage overload, loading and lower capacitance cables have been mentioned. Does anyone have other ideas for emilm to try? 

The MP is Moving Permalloy, not exactly Moving Magnet
Find the difference

Here is J.Carr comment about MP:

"The operating principle would be that of a moving iron but with increased sensitivity, which could be used alternatively to increase output, reduce moving mass, or decrease inductance. "   

@lewm  : every body know about the today extremely humble MM Audio Technica AT-95E ( 49.00 ) where its inductance is 400mH that inside the AT load capacitance specs its resonance frequency is over 20khz.

This is my last post about load capacitance.

R.

Dear @lewm : Nagaoka today ( the OP cartridge. ) does not gives any load capacitance value in its specs.


""" analysis of where the resonant peak might fall and effect the audio band ... "

the true analysis belongs to Hagerman and I don't know before him.

In the MM thread that calculator was showed for the first time in this forum and not for me ( I think. ). Go there and you will find out several posts about capacitance and load impedances other than 47k.

Enough, jjss has reason: we have to help the OP and not post information that increment the mix-up to him.

 Give him a real and true advise other than capacitance issue to help him, just do it.

R.

Btw, no insults per sé, read my post here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/problem-with-phono-stage/post?postid=2037860#2037860

and he follows posting the same " tale ". Good that you and mijo support him. As him both of you even worst because are followers.

The actual inductance is not listed on the Nagaoka website. Naturally I looked there first, but since Raul suggested the value first, I used his numbers (600mH) but sensing that was probably too high gave him the benefit of the doubt and went with 500mH. The thing is here that in order to generate 5mV, you're going to have an associated inductance that is going to have to be in that area, generally speaking so its a safe value to assume, and it gave Raul the benefit of the doubt.

Now Raul made some other comments that were so ridiculous that I wondered if they were even worth addressing. But since there are many who might read this that don't have an engineering background, I probably should address at least one:

October 16 of 2020 year and are you talking in a high end analog forum of op-amps? really? when several years ago no one use op-amps in any decent today SS electronics: decent unit design.

This statement is all at once laughable, ridiculous and patently false. To those that don't know, 'opamp' is a reduction of the phrase 'operational amplifier' and refers to a circuit that has exceptional if not nearly infinite gain- so much in fact that in order to operate linearly it has to employ feedback. Feedback is the act of taking a signal at the output of a circuit and sending it back in a reduced form to the input to act as a correction voltage. In this way distortion is reduced. Opamps are commonly available in small plastic packages with 8 pins containing a pair of opamp circuits. They have been in use in audio since the late 1960s and have seen dramatic performance improvements over the succeeding decades and make no mistake, are very much in use in high end audio today in preamps, DACs, tape machines, power amplifiers, tuners and so on. They are used in servo circuits (including servo-controlled subwoofers), power supply regulators and of course as gain blocks in audio circuits. 


With regards to phono sections, there's a kind of phono section made by a variety of companies, Krell, 47 Labs and so on that are current rather than voltage amplifiers; these phono sections (which get nice reviews) absolutely *have* to use opamps in order to work- they are intrinsic in the design and this is no secret. But you can google this stuff easily enough, by googling almost any solid state preamp with a phono section, look for the interior shots (try John Curl's Blowtorch preamp) and the opamps are clearly visible in the photos.


But there is a particular phono preamp with which Raul claims to have some association, one which he claims is the best (its obvious at this point he was not part of the design team) and it too employs opamps! Res ispa loquteur...

Speaking of capacitance, phono cable single ended and balanced, will capacitance of the cable affect the same on either case?

@luisma31   Yes.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=72159&start=15https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/nagaoka-mp110-cartridge-loading.364498/https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=116237
Info at the above sites might help the OP to think about capacitance for the MP110.  In searching, I also found one other site where the cartridge is said to be an MM type, but I tend to agree with the owners manual, per Raul.  However, whether MM or IM, the inductance of this cartridge is quite high, higher even than a typical MM.  In 3 instances I found inductance quoted as 600mH or more than 800mH.  Thus, whether it is an MM or an MI type, it is even more subject to capacitance (and load R) than is the typical MM.  So Atma-sphere's analysis of where the resonant peak might fall and effect the audio band is reasonable and even conservative, regardless of the transduction method.

As I carefully noted, I am going on information obtained from a few internet websites, one of which was LP Gear. As I have learned not to trust LP Gear for accurate information on cartridges they sell, I verified the information on another site. If I am nevertheless incorrect, good for you. I will do some more searching to verify your claim. By the way, the Vinyl Engine page you quote says the output is 5mV, as mentioned by others here on this thread. I will have to sign on to VE in order to view the owners manual, but 5mV is rather high output for any MI in my experience; I suppose it’s possible. Accessing the actual owners manual regarding the transduction method will require me to sign in on VE. I’ll get back to you. I guess the point I was really trying to make by inference is that your insults directed toward Atma-sphere are uncalled for. If you think he (and now I) erred, then just say so. There is just no need for your vitriole.
EDIT. OK, I just found the owners manual.  You are correct.  IM type.  Mea culpa. Nowhere do I find a quote for the actual inductance.  Do you know it?

with all due respect to the knowledgeable parties here, one has to see the manufacturer as the last word in facts about the cartridge in question...

https://www.turntableneedles.com/assets/images/productimages/nagaoka_MP_series.pdf

page down half way in this users manual... says right there... IM style, as Raul says - retailers can say MM on their sites as a shorthand/general type (vs. low output MC, which is the key differentiation)

can we go back to helping the OP now? this back and forth is not helping him much...

that MM thread started by Raul was and is a seminal thread for those wanting to learn... not an easy read, as you would expect, but much much info and knowledge in there... for those who really want to master the subject

Dear @lewm : Sorry but you are totally wrong. The only kind of cartridges Nagaoka manufacture are IM design not MM. Here you can open the Nagaoka instruction manual and at the very first two sentences states is a IM not MM ( yes you are to lazy. ):

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/nagaoka/mp-110.shtml

You can confirm as I did it ( several years ago. ) through the Japanese official audio bible that specified IM not MM.
As you your information sources are totally wrong, no matters what. Remember that I not only was a Nagaoka owner but owned the very hard to find top of the line: MP50-Super, way superior to the today 500. Btw, I think that still own the 200 or 300 model, I own to many cartridges and can’t remember exactly about.

In the other side it’s not true that almost all the cartridges I listed about its inductance value are MI/IM because down there are very good know names even if you never own it or don’t have it:

Technics, Audio Technica, Signet, Pickering, Shure, Stanton. In all those models the resonant frequency is way over 20khz. So, what are you talking about?

""  made that very clear in his analysis. """  , could be but useless today. My opinion I respect yours.

lew, I always make my job, at least before you post make yours. Don’t you think?

Btw, those 500mH in the calculator is the default value choosed by Hagerman .

Lew, ceratinly I’m not an expert in any audio subject but in reference to cartridges but LOMC ones I learned through several years all what any audiophile/gentleman could want to learn here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc

and I learned from several gentleamns that participated and participates there.

R.

Ummmm...  I am as lazy as the next guy about looking up facts before leaping to criticize or correct someone else, but according to my research (3 internet sources), the Nagaoka MP110 is a MM cartridge (Moving Magnet), as asserted by Atma, not an MI (Moving Iron) type.  Furthermore, Nagaoka do not make or market any MI cartridges in their current line-up, according to at least one website and contrary to Raul's claims.  I would also assert without further research, because I have done the research many times for many cartridges in the past, that the value Atma-sphere used in his example, 500mH, is very typical for the inductance of any MM cartridge.  It can be a bit higher or a bit lower in individual cases, and variation in the value would of course affect the resonant frequency when combined with cable and input capacitance. I think Atma made that very clear in his analysis.  Further, many if not all of the cartridges that Raul lists in his vitriolic response are MI types in fact, not like the Nagaoka.  MI types do indeed tend to have much lower inductance than MM types, as Raul shows us, but that is irrelevant to the OP's issue.  It is unlike Raul to make such a factual error, but there it is.

Dear @ejb 14 : "" you leave the personal attacks out of your posts. """

I’m really worried that you think what I posted with that gentleman is a personal attack even if look like that because is far away from there, not only with him but with no one else any where.

Things are that when I read that some one is spreading every where in the audio world forums again and again information that in the last times almost never happenned/happens I think that not only me but any one with the rigth information needs to post about because is each of us responsability to really help in between us increasing our each one audio overall subjects knowledge levels and the only way to do it is taking facts that can be proved that it really happens.

Your post appreciated and sorry that’s my way of thinking: share true today experiences, nothing else. I’m married with MUSIC not hardware or software or " imagination "/illusions but true live MUSIC.

R.

Dear @emilm :  ""   but talk nonsense  ""  ? ? well maybe could be nonsense to you and other gentlemans too but you can be sure that that " talk " has true and real foundation.

Now,  ""   to match this entry level Phono?  "" you are rigth that the Lehmann because its price level is an entry level phono stage but when was introduced in the analog market and even today and due to its very good and wise design outperforms easily units in the 3K price range, please read all the reviews on that " entry level ".

In the other side I already gone in deep with your Arcam and sorry to disturb you about but has not the quality level than the Lehmann. Just an opinion.

I'm still learning but everything I learned came mainly doing several mistakes taking bad decisions and choices and taking advises that came from gentlemans that had not the rigth knowledge levels but I did not knew they had not because I was even worst than they.

Anyway your post was welcomed.

R.

@rauliruegas

Dear @jjss49 : Thank’s for that but I’m still learning and willing to each single day, far away to be an expert by my self. Btw, congratulation for your Townshend, well the Harbeth’s and Rel’s too.

I think like all forums, people come to learn, and sometimes, have to have patience with those who express views which are hard to accept, given their own biases and experiences... nonetheless the forum is a valuable one... we have pursued this hobby and passion for so long, but there is always more for us to learn

in terms of analog front ends raul, i still have that lovely Townshend... the arm damping is quite special, has real benefits i think ... i also accumulated a vpi classic w 3d (what a tank, but sound is not quite as good as i hoped), also a refurbed oracle delphi w origin live rega arm (wonderful deck. lively easeful) and most recently a well tempered amadeus (mad scientist firebaugh maybe but the sound is just brilliant)... always more excellent units to try and experience!  

I haven't posted much here, but do read quite a bit and love to learn; I have learned a few things on this thread and find much of what @atmasphere, @geof3 (and others as well) have posted to be helpful and make sense to me. However, @rauliruegas, you are obviously knowledgeable, and have a lot to offer, but I would prefer you leave the personal attacks out of your posts. In my opinion, personal attacks don't help you, the OP, me or others and cast a shadow over the rest of your posts. 

I am still scratching my head a bit as to why when the only thing changed between the two scenarios is the phono stage that we get an "unlistenable" experience; it could be that the Lehmann requires a different setup I suppose, or that it does a much better job at exposing other weaknesses in the system - but I would find a way to verify the Lehmann is performing to specification before proceeding down other avenues. I have bought (and fixed) a lot of used equipment, and found that sometimes what sounds fine to the seller can mean they did not know or could not hear that there was a problem.

The A28 phono stage appears to be a simple single gain stage op-amp based design, but owning and listening to a few reputed 'better' ones (A Sutherland PH3D and a Croft Micro 25 for example), I think it does quite well. I would not say the built in stage is better than the Lehmann, but if that is so, I would think the Lehmann should sound better through the A28. My other external stages certainly do. 

Raul, I don't know if atmasphere is an educated terrorist but you are relentless! Are you that bored during these times than to do anything but talk nonsense and offend other people.
Do you ever shut up?

Yes, atmasphere is bombarding me with technical information from which I understand no more than 10% and I was overwhelmed BUT he never insults people and I'm sure many appreciate his knowledge.

You say that a 2000$ Integrated amp is not good enough for 450$ phono stage.
Are you out of your mind. How much should I spend for an integrated to match this entry level Phono?
Maybe 10000$? 

Arcam FMJ28 is a poor quality performer?!? Again, what have you been smoking?
One of the last Arcams MADE IN UK. Not like the new made in China crap. Personally I resent everything Made in China and this has been the case for 30 yrs when the West started shifting manufacturing to China (nothing to do with the current Corona situation).

From all the information in this thread I have decided that my turntable, NOT MY INTEGRATED is the weakest link and I will replace it very soon. 
I will open another discussion about this turntable topic and I hope that you will not be part of it.

Atmasphere, please keep in mind that not every person who loves and enjoys music is an electronic engineer. Although your information could be very useful for the right person to the rest of us, maybe you could try and explain it in an easier way.

Big thanks to everybody who tried to help me with my problem, especially to ejb14, Geof3 and jjss49.

Dear @jjss49  : Thank's for that but I'm still learning and willing to each single day, far away to be an expert by my self.

The problem with that gentleman is that he likes to be the " salt " in every single audio subject even that in almost all audio subjects his knowledge levels are really low like the one in this thread.
Additional problem is that newcomers to Agon forums think that because he is a manufacturer he is an expert in everything when his true day by day expertise belongs to tubes technology.

Btw, congratulation for your Townshend, well the Harbeth's and Rel's too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. 

@atmasphere :  "  it is a mistaken idea to assume that the peak has an influence at only one frequency....""

wrong you are and if you understand it then a misunderstood because I even talked/posted about harmonics developed but in the Nagaoka case it does not has any real " disturb " to what the OP is hearing.

Incredible that you want to have protagonism and even that you do not know that the OP cartridge is not a MM design. 
It's useless to follow you about those clicks/pops .


"""   opamp-based preamps """.

October 16 of 2020 year and are you talking in a high end analog forum of op-amps? really? when several years ago no one use op-amps in any decent today SS electronics: decent unit design.

"""   so willing to attack me... """

attack you? I don't need it because you are the only one that attack your self with that so low knowledge levels in this specific regards.
You need a new mentor/advisor with analog.

perhaps the only audio subject where you really have the rigth knowledge level is about that archaic electronics you promotes.

Btw, you always make my day, thank's for that. Be happy and try to learn

R.

@atmasphere

i remember 6-7-8 years ago when i dove headfirst back into analog, reading so many loooooooong heated threads here between raul, oregon papa, chakster -- true analog experts with strong opinions, deep knowledge and experience and no fear in expressing .... hahaha

learned a lot, and through the jousts, and applied many ideas to my analog front end with outstanding results!

Emlim,
Records all have pops and noise that can be eliminated by a number of methods.  I had a black cube in the past.  My guess as to why it reveals more pops and clicks has to do with lack of feedback.  By inserting feedback into the signal noise that is common is canceled out.  I would say the black cube has less feedback.  BTW, D Class amplifiers with their reconstruction filters also tend to eliminate pops and clicks.

This is all assuming correct setup of the cartridge.  A cartridge with too much downward pressure on the groove will be noisier.

The problem with noise is more pronounced in phonos without feedback, those using MC cartridges, and older LPs from the 50's and 60's  

Cleaning records will help and so will antistatic treatments.  An ultrasonic cleaner can be assembled with ready to go parts.  I built this one in a couple hours for about $400.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtL3unuiBMA

holder and motor
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32974012782.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dNex46Q

Tank can be had same place or amazon or ebay

Order up some tubing and fittings

pump
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FMR73ZF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Filter
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FA2RLX2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use an ionizer for static by DESCO
https://www.testequipmentdepot.com/desco/ionizers/index.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlqzqldm57AIVGqSzCh1o9Q...

It looks like Raul is on a roll again. There is some possibility a post of his will be removed, so I will not quote it. Instead I will generally address some of his benighted comments.

The calculator I linked to demonstrates that an electrical resonant peak exists with any cartridge. But it is a mistaken idea to assume that the peak has an influence at only one frequency. As you can see from the graphs, there is a rise in the frequency response curve prior to the peak; this is true of *any* resonance; the slope of the curve is defined by a value known as 'Q' (Quality) in radio terms (and is caused by how tightly the windings of the inductance are wound). The higher the Q value, the higher the peak and the steeper the curves on either side of it. From this we can see that the Q associated with MM cartridges is considerably lower than that for LOMC cartridges. This also means that its influence is spread out over a wider range of frequencies- the lower the Q the wider range of frequencies it influences. Here is the Wikipedia page regarding Q:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor

Any signal that exists in the envelope is boosted. In addition, phase shift will exist below the cutoff of the resonance (this is basic filter theory); the ear perceives this as brightness since this is a peak rather than a dip. So the result is the brightness will enhance ticks and pops. Ticks and pops are high frequency in nature; this is why a 'scratch filter' seen in older audio gear rolls off the highs. This stuff should be pretty easy to understand.


I've seen the idea that a tick or a pop is not a repetitive signal; that its an impulse. We can see easily that this idea is false and quite laughable! This is because of the very simple fact that audio circuits amplify signals inside the audio band, and ticks and pops exist in the audio band as well (hence scratch filters affect them...). This means by definition that they **are** repetitive in nature albeit quite short. Further, its important to understand that not all ticks and pops have their origin on the LP surface as I've pointed out earlier: many phono preamps generate them due to poor high frequency overload margins in the front end of the phono circuit. This is common with opamp-based preamps as quite often where the overload is occurring is outside of the feedback loop of the circuit so it can't be corrected by feedback. Regardless of their source, ticks and pops are an audio frequency artifact, but if the playback apparatus is set up properly they can be minimized. To this point (also as I mentioned earlier) I am very used to playing entire album sides without any ticks or pops (so long as there are no actual scratches on the LP surface) and I don't clean my LPs with anything more than a carbon fiber dust brush.


Raul appears so willing to attack me that he's actually contradicting himself in order to do so. In this quote, which is from a post of his that has not been reported he says this:

No one approach 500mH.

But I only used that example in my prior post because Raul said this:

first than all Nagaoka is not MM design but IM similar to MI and the like where normally internal inductance is not really high ( say over 600. )

-In that prior post of mine I even quoted the part above! In general, when you see someone engaging in this sort of behavior its not about fact anymore, its about making someone else 'wrong', often at any cost. Its my feeling this is the phenomena we are seeing here. 

You said:

"""  I get a little bit better detail and bass extension BUT it also much noisier. """

Why the Lehmann? it's a true up-grade over what you own.

If you are not willing to invest what your overall system needs and " crying " for then put on sale the Lehmann and stay as you was before the Lehmann.

Good analog quality performance level is way demanding.

R.

Dear @emilm : Normally when we make a true up grade in any room/system the new item comer will disclose several hidden " problems/distortions " that due to inferior design/quality of the other items in the system can't disclose it.

That " humble "  Lehmann phono stage is way superior to your discontinued integrated Arcam. You need at least a line preamp with similar quality design and quality excecution to the design as the Lehmann you own.
Sorry to tell you but your Arcam is really a " poor " quality performer and the Lehmann quality showed that Arcam low quality level.

Anyway, you need to make the rigth Lehmann set up with the cartridge in use.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Astatic 2500 : 105mH
Glanz Mf-71 : 100 mH
Audio Technica AT-25 : 85mH
Acutex M315 : 160mH
Nagaoka/Jeweltone : 280mH.

So, @emilm the frequency resonance of your cartridge is: 25.4khz , end of the " distress ".


Btw,, the gentleman that runned his MM/MI cartridges at around 20k loading is Halcro in his DM10 phonolinepreamp that comes with loading selector from 10k to 60k.

R.

Dear friends: Some very well know MM/MI/IM cartridge inductance values:

Stanton Series 100: 270mH
AKG P25MD :  170mH
P100LE ( fabolous/unique.): 90mH
Technics EPC100CMK4:  33mH
Audio Technica ATML-180: 210mH
Audio Technica ATML-170: 380mh
Sonus Gold: 150mH
Shure Ultra500: 330mH
Shure V15 typeV: 330mH
Pickering XSV5000: 290mH
Astatic MF-200: 90mH
ADC 26/27 : 150mH
Signet TK10 MLMK2: 180mH


@atmasphere  : No one approach 500mH. In the other side all those cartridges and any MM/MI/IM can be loaded at 20k, 47k, 100k or 150k , I intented all these values and stay with 100k. I know of audiophiles that loaded their cartridges at 15k with good results too. The Hagerman calculator use only 47k that's one of multiple options about.

As I said, you don't have the rigth knowledge levels, you need as urgent learn about. Do it and come back, till then: bye bye / chao ! ! 

R.

Weird/curious that you choosed in Nagaoka IM design 500 and not 300mH. Why did you do that?

300mh is way nearest to the real Nagaoka value than 500mh and with 300mh the resonace frequency is at 24.6khz Way different and as we can see through the Lehmann specs it is designed with very high overload levels.
So, that’s not the trouble.

What if you take the MM AT25 85mh along say those 600pf? even with that extremely high capacitance the resonance is over 22khz. At normal 200pf the resonance is 38.6khz ( fundamental frequency. harmonics that goes inmmediatly to 77.2khz. )


"" its going to be audible. The slope of the peak is there at 15KHz and there will be phase shift elements easily down to 10KHz, which will be perceived as brightness. ""

A surface LP click certainly is audible as a " click " sound not as brigthness and I’m talking of clicks and pops because that’s what reports the OP not brigthness: he said: pops and other noises and never mentioned brigthness.

So what’s all about? and of course that you can’t perceive as a click or defined kind of sound 17khz-18khz ( you can’t aisle it. ), you just can’t do it.

In the other side the harmonics of that resonance at 19khz ( the fundamental. ) goes to 38khz almost at once. My information is not false.

Why is false? proved it is false not only post it. You are the one whom say is faklse then: proved not talk, we need facts. I know as usual with you: you have no facts at all. Pity.

A gentleman with deep knowledge levels way higher than you and ovbiously than me says about:

" Clicks don’t inherently have a frequency because there is no repetition in the signal. That would be like asking "what is the frequency of an impulse? ""

The Hagerman calculator gives an " idea " of what could happens but exist other parameters around it that certainly changes the calculator values. Exist a very complex relationship between several electrical and mechanical parameters to try to aisle one of them.

Your " terrorism " has no limits because you want and like the " protagonism " but unfortunatelly you have not the rigth knowledge levels and skills to has it. Sorry for that. Try again.

R.

Btw, a few days ago you posted:

""" With regards to surface noise I agree most of that is in the groove..................................................
The surface noise is mostly an artifact of the pressing plant ""

Speaking of capacitance, phono cable single ended and balanced, will capacitance of the cable affect the same on either case?

where normally internal inductance is not really high ( say over 600. ) so with that 150/200 capacitance in the Lehmann and due that has a high overload design seems to me that that is not the problem but Lehmann overall set up.

Let's drop these values into the calculator and see what pops up shall we? Giving Raul the benefit of the doubt we'll use 500mH for the cartridge inductance, but the Lehmann has a 100pf input capacitance; if we assume another 40pf for the Audioquest cable mentioned above:http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

-we got a peak at 19KHz. BTW that's a 10dB peak; its going to be audible. The slope of the peak is there at 15KHz and there will be phase shift elements easily down to 10KHz, which will be perceived as brightness. Clearly keeping the cable capacitance down is paramount.

Don't worry about clicks and pops because there are more critical issues for the cartridges shows it at the best.

Increased audibility of ticks and pops is a clear sign of a problem. If the obvious problems of setup are overcome (VTA, HTA, tracking pressure and so on) and the ticks and pops are worse, then with any high output cartridge (which will have a higher inductance in order to produce that high output) the loading needs to be addressed. To that end, you start by minimizing the capacitive load on the cartridge, as the more capacitance the lower the electrical resonant peak (hence a low capacitance cable). After that then you look into reducing the load resistance. For example with many Grado high output cartridges, a load in the neighborhood of 10K takes out the brightness that you might otherwise hear with the stock 47K load of the phono preamp input.


But all cartridges are electrical generators, meaning that the lower the resistance of the load, the more work the cartridge has to do to make its voltage.

This causes the cartridge cantilever to become harder to move. For this reason alone, its worth it to start by having the capacitive load minimized first!

Btw, problems with capacitance normally will be at a frequency range that even stays says at 17-18khz can't we perceived and again today phono stages comes with pretty decent designs.

Its easy to see that this statement is false.

Dear @emilm and friends : first than all Nagaoka is not MM design but IM similar to MI and the like where normally internal inductance is not really high ( say over 600. ) so with that 150/200 capacitance in the Lehmann and due that has a high overload design seems to me that that is not the problem but Lehmann overall set up.

It's obvious that if you change your cable for a better one or just different the sound you will experience with will be different but before you take that choice contact Lehmann and if after that you want to invest in your analog rig then could be better to go with the MP-300 from Nagaoka.

With MM cartridges always is better to have a low capacitance cable but almost any today decent cable are low capacitamnce designs in the other side there are MM cartridges as the AT25 that comes with low inductance, in this model only 85 more in the MI/IM territory.

Today phono stages are not like in the past an almost all comes with really good overload margin.

Don't worry about clicks and pops because there are more critical issues for the cartridges shows it at the best.

Look, this is what any one can read in the latest Original Master Recording LPs from MoFi ( Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs. ):

"" DUE TO THIS PROCESS,THERE MAY BE OCASSIONAL POPS OR TICKS INHERENT IN INITIAL PLAYBACK.........."""""

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Btw, problems with capacitance normally will be at a frequency range that even stays says at 17-18khz can't we perceived and again today phono stages comes with pretty decent designs.