Preamp Deal of the Century

Agree! In the near future, I may be looking to go up to a 6SN7 Cabernet from the Chardonnay, with the thought to ask Mick to let out all the stops in terms of materials quality. I have no interest in the dual though, as I’m happy with the 6SN7 sound, not feeling the need to play with two options, and have spent more than enough money in arriving at a set of tubes I really like (Treasure Globe, early ‘60’s RCA 6L6GC and Sophia Aqua 274B).

@ markusthenaimnut we should try and connect.  I have two 2 channel systems going and am setting up a third in a spare bedroom. 

Greetings i NEED HELP...Love my chardonnay but need a much more liquid mid and Highs with sum KICK ASS BAS...can any one come to my rescue...this is the latest Gen 3 pre...Please and thank you my Sistas and Brothers!....Audio123...HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell us about your system and what tubes and power fuses you are using.

Sounds like you'd love it if it just sounded good. That's funny.

Rocky54...glad i could amuse you..a real joker i am

ML Montis speakers.....dual Vandersteen 2wq subs...The latest Rogue M-180 tube mono blocks with the upgraded Dark Edtion..Audio Mirror 3 special edtion Dac..cyrus transport all with assorted Acoustic Zen Cables.......if anyone could let me know what your using and how it changed the stock tubes that I have seated again in the pre and if you have a set rady to sell...Thanks to all  (rocky54 you help was Priceless!!)

Sophia Electric Aqua 274B, Grant Fidelity Treasure Globes (6SN7) and early 1960s RCA 6L6GC’s. Best combo for my tastes I’ve come across, after trying many others. Everything one likes, plus a touch of warmth, tho the latter ultimately depends on balancing the sound of the system as a whole to one’s tastes.

Audio123, 

The RCA 6sn7 VT-231 gray glass or Kenrad 6sn7 VT-231 staggered plates with black glass or clear glass should give you what you want.

thanks for some great advice, High stream and my audio brother Snopro,,...any website that may have some of these...do not trust E-bay....anyone else want to chime in and if you have anything to sell????

Andy from Vintage Tube Services has nice 6sn7 tubes. A little expensive but he backs his tubes.

+1 for Andy at vintage tube services,  you have to call him because he is old school,  but he has the best tubes.

I’ve never dealt with Andy, but have always been impressed with his site. At least for information, Brent Jessee’s site is very useful too. That said, if I’d known what I eventually learned about the newer Sophia and Treasure Globe tubes, I’d have saved a few $K and lots of time. What I would have lost would have been learning about and listening to lots of older tubes, now all lined up across the brick base of my fire place.

Before I switched to the Treasure Globe’s, available from Rachel at Premium Vacuum tubes (Grant Fidelity), my favorites were the Sylvania 6F8G, the latter type being the original 6SN7 name, and the USAF 596 rectifier. They both do require an adapter from China or from Woo Audio (better but more expensive) though. Btw, there’s an RCA tube date guide online under the search "date codes for RCA-made tubes Ludwell Sibley" (the only thing missing is that for replacement tubes from the mid 1950s on RCA used a YY-WW on the base, where WW referred to the week of the year). Some for other brands’ are available too.

Cant thank all the Audio Brothers who helped me out...I will be pursuing some of these tubes and will let you know the outcome...Thank you once again!!

Greetings all....put back the $600 i all ready spent on tubes....room is 18 x 22...treated with ascoustic  tube traps behind the ML Montis...also a diffuser between the ML...Sit in the Midfield triangle...8ft apart and i isten 8ft back...thought i had the Holy grail of set up...But i made a half inch turn to both Montis to the outside and ..Wow  the Brightness was gone and the system is Killing me....NON stop binge..and to think i wanted to sell the Gen 3 Chardonnay!!....what was i thinking..a big shout out to Rocky 54 for all the Advice(NONE)....goes to show .. if you thought you had your speakers dialed in...as i did...well you might need to spend a little more time as i did...WOW..Thanks to all....

Forgot to mention    the ML Montis And The Dual Vandersten subs sit back 6ft from the front wall

Congrats. It's always satisfying when small changes yield big results. Still, unless Mick dug into his special stock of tubes, there's a lot of room for improvement. And also the fuse and umbilical too. 

 umbilical chord was a special editon and made a nice improvment...never changed the fuse Highsteam..what should i go with?....Dont like to bring this up too often..But as a Drummer who toured with the largest Fusion band (Spyro Gryra) in the US...I think i know Live Music..which is always louder...not centered in the sweet spot and far from being what we expect from are faux High end systems..never less...I truly enjoy to sit on the middle and with a cocktail or to thimk om back on stage...TRUTH!!

years from 88 to 94...was in my early 40's....

@audio123 I’ve been using all Synergistic Research Orange fuses. Recently, SR has gone one better according to the reviews with their Purple version. The past couple of weeks I’ve inserted a couple of Audio Magic Ultimate Premier fuses into my ATC active speakers. Very good. A bit darker sound than the Orange, but very smooth, clear, a more articulate and deeper base, and eeringly quiet. I look forward to comparing them with the Purple, probably when SR has a 3-for-2 sale. Jerry at AM is working a new fuse too, which is how I got mine from a dealer clearing stock. There are pro and user reviews of the Purple and Orange fuses online, including here on Agon.

Now that SR Orange users are replacing them with Purples, the former are appearing on the market at a price level that makes it easier to dip your toe in. Watch HiFi Shark. One thing to know about SR fuses (but not AM) is that they are not built to industry spec, Users learned early on to go one amp value or 25% higher. The problem is initial surges blowing them, which even the horse’s mouth at SR mentioned to me last week. For the Chardonnay, I had a 3.15A blow on start up after merely connecting RCA’s for subwoofers, no power. So I’ve been using a 4A since (small, slow-blow).

On the subject of tweaks, one of the very best I’ve come across is High Fidelity’s NPS-1260 3D contact solution. There’s a thread on Agon about it with several very happy campers, as well as a rave review in Enjoy the Music. The stuff, not cheap, is the real deal.

One of the reasons the Supratek sounds good is that it uses a tube based shunt regulator, which is pretty rare. Most manufacturers go for a much more easily easily implemented series regulator.

I have found this tends to give a very solid and assured sonic signature.

Thanks high Stream...and pesky i had yhe same feling about the Tube based shunt regulator....Can any and all of you on this Fab Thread let me know what  6SN7 you using and why...and were can i get a pair....some like High Stream gave some interesting picks....comon Brothers and let me know what. tubes you selltted

on..hows it sounded to the junk stock,,,and were can i buy a pair.....THANKS MY AUDIO BROTHERS!

@pesky_wabbit 

” One of the reasons the Supratek sounds good is that it uses a tube based shunt regulator, which is pretty rare. Most manufacturers go for a much more easily easily implemented series regulator.“

+1 

and what do you think after talking to don Sachs who uses the Shuguang 6SN7GT vacuum tube in his pre     that i bought for the Gen3 Chardonnay?...comments PLEASE & THANK YOU!!

There’s a “Reference 6SN7” thread on head-fi and a “Shootout of Nos 6sn7 tubes” here on Agon. Another with the same title on What’s Best Forum. Then there are tube dealer charts, as mentioned above.

I have several older 6SN7 and 6F8G pairs available to try out.

For Supratek owners who are rolling their 6SN7s I'd like to simply draw your attention to the nearby thread on the Linlai E 6SN7 tubes. I haven't tried them but apparently they sound pretty good.

I ordered a Chardonnay 3  and  Mick said my Chardonnay will have Linlai 6sn7 tubes. 

Chuckie 

I found this awesome thread the first time just before Mick went on his preamp building hiatus. I was ready to pull the trigger back then and was very disappointed to learn he quit the business. However, persistence paid off and in 2020 I ordered my Chardonnay 3 in wood/chrome. I run it with a EML 274B Mesh, Gold Lion KT66, and Linlai Elite 6SN7. I just love it and after a bigger than expected annual bonus, I ordered his new Grange, but as a Line Stage only since I don't have a turntable set-up. Since the huge regular Grange chassis is not needed, he builds this Grange LS into the Cabernet chassis. I am 2.5 months into my supposed 3 month order time, but am not holding my breath... I know it will take probably 4 months. This time I ordered the preamp in black/chrome and already have a new pair of EML 300B Mesh waiting for them. Also got a pair of Gold Lion 300Bs as my daily work horses. As soon as the Grange is here I will put up my beautiful Chardonnay for sale (I think... maybe I just keep it - it is like a good red wine after all). Mick is a master at his trade and you simply cannot go wrong with his preamps. Did I really need to upgrade? Probably not, but we are all a bit crazy, ain't we? Totally excited to hear my first ever 300B preamp.

Congratulations! I also considered going from the Chardonnay to a line stage "Grange," or the "all out" version he was starting to build as he had time. When I asked about it Mick wrote, "The “all out” version is the 6J5 line stage which I use in the Grange Signature . But you can only use 6J5 tubes, not 6Sn7." Since I didn’t want to start again with tube buying, I decided to go with the 6SN7 Cabernet (it uses the same cabinet as the Chardonnay). It’s currently on the way, still waiting for a plane out of Perth (suggest never using postal express to/from Australia, although much less $$ than DHL/UPS).

have a new pair of EML 300B Mesh waiting for them

The EML's are my favorites tubes, on that preamp the EML 45 specifically, the 300B's for my taste is too much but it could be a personal preference. I haven't tried the TA's though or the Elrog's

Just be careful with the mesh I read and heard from so many sources that mesh plates pose more problems than standard solid plates

Congrats

Thanks. Mick also recommended the EML 45s. If the 300B are 'too much', I am sure I won't have any problems selling them. The EML dealer lives very close to me (in the Napa Valley), so it would be easy to pick up a pair of those. But first I need that preamp ... and it will take more patience.

@highstream I did not order the Grange Signature LS since I also did not want to deal with a new type of driver tube (have many 6SN7s). I ordered the ’regular’ Grange LS which is really a ’dual’, allowing to use the 300B or 6SN7 circuits. I asked Mick if both can be made with balanced outputs, but he did not commit. Let’s see.... However, if one is balanced (the 300B/45 circuit) and the 6SN7 only has singled ended outputs, it makes switching back and forth a bit more work. I will be happy either way, but the ability to use the same cable would be awesome.

Let us know how it works out. I didn’t want a dual, primarily to keep things simple. As I read the discussion on his site, Mick thinks a 6SN7 preamp provides the best sound, so whether it’s with Cab or Grange circuitry, I think we’ll do well. Be interested to hear about the comparison with the 300B.

I gotta say, using 12j5gt tubes in my Cabernet has been an ear opener. The round plate Sylvania tubes have been a clarity revelation and the JAN Tungsol are no slouch. I don't think I'd want a preamp that only uses 6/12j5 tubes but it is easy to use adapters in the *sn7 preamps. The *j5 tubes are still fairly cheap, and that goes doubly (halfly?) for the 12v tubes. 

Over the last year I have been playing around in the low fi end of things.  It started with my first "audiophile" headphones.  Then a good amp.  Then a tube amp (which has introduced me to a sound that my SS stuff can't seem to reproduce).  Then entry level speakers, and a gradually building cache of components.  Nothing expensive really.  Now  I have several systems that I am able to play around with to gain a sense of what component and speaker pairing  as well as room setup and speaker positioning will do to the sound. Some things make me smile, others make me occasionally grimace, but overall a lot of fun which has drawn me in a little deeper.

Anyway... As I begin to mull over the prospect of  heading to the next level I am almost paralyzed by the myriad of options combinations and opinions on pretty much everything.   Then I stumbled upon this thread.   I have never experienced such unbridled enthusiasm.  Truthfully as I wade slowly into the audiophile waters this level of enthusiasm really makes me want to simply talk to Mick, order one of his wonderful looking (and apparently fantastic sounding) pre amps and build a system around that as my starting point.  Is this crazy or does it make a modicum of sense.  

Any help or encouragement or guidance would be great!

Modicum of sense, I'd say. You might want to read Mick's Guide to buying a preamp discussion to get a sense of what he's up to. If you look around for reviews of his gear, not a whole lot, you might come across some criticism of his "spaghetti" style of point to point wiring. It's something he apparently has cleaned up to some extent, although I haven't looked inside. It doesn't bother me, as he is not alone in point to point wiring among good developers and his gear has a reputation for lasting. The Chardonnay is a good place to start, although if I were having the internal debate again, I'd have better gone with a 6SN7 Cabernet. If you're willing to roll tubes, the stock set can be improved upon significantly. In any case, try  communicating your thinking and desires with Mick, see what he has to say. 

Couple thoughts.

1. I kinda might have been where you are now, about three years ago. I had owned Naim gear, and been satisfied, for a couple of decades plus. BUT, I knew that tube gear would sound better. Not just "different", but better. Better in a musically significant way. But where the f**k to start? Geez! So many well known, well regarded brands. So many enthusiasts. So many different kinds of tubes.

I consider myself lucky to have randomly bumped into someone on one of the many Fora that I was obsessively reading who recommended that I look for a 6SN7 based preamp. I had no idea what he was talking about. But i read more, I sought to learn. I ran across this same thread and scratched my head. I loved the enthusiasm. And lots of guys were saying they’d arrived at Supratek after owning many of the other well known and well regarded brands that I was thinking about. The fact that they voted with their wallets made an impression on me. And the fact that many of them said they considered their search "done" resonated with me. I hate shopping for equipment. I hate the stress. The self doubt. The misgivings. Second thoughts. The potential for buyers remorse. Reading the thread, along with many others here and elsewhere, helped me learn more about myself. And the kind of listener and audiophile I am. I’m kind of a "set it and forget it" kind of guy, BUT the other super important question that must be considered is this one. "How good does it have to be?" The answer (IMNSHO) is "good enough that you don’t think about "I wonder how this could be better?"" Simply speaking, the goal should be superlative performance. That’s what we’re looking for, right? And value, of course, however you might define that.

Ok, that counts as one thought. But I could write a lot more about this subject...

2. Regarding the comment above that "his gear has a reputation for lasting". Well...Shee---yeah it does. It has a transferable LIFETIME warranty. Huh? Say wha...? You heard me right.

Can’t help myself. Gotta’ ramble. Gonna keep going here.

During my career I traveled extensively. Eating out was a constant thing. But *one time* I got lucky and ran across a "Chaîne des Rôtisseurs" restaurant. Frankly, the food was totally next level. Really up there. It was so good I had to talk to the chef. Turned out there were two. The owners. I learned a lot. About quality. And dedication.

Basically, they didn’t care at all about growing their restaurant. Getting bigger. Their restaurant was not large. All they wanted to do was cook. That was what they enjoyed. All the other stuff required to run a business? Do ya’ gotta’ do it? Yeah. But keep it in it’s proper perspective. It’s proper place. Don’t let it take all the fun out of doing what you love to do. The "Chaîne des Rôtisseurs" is basically a bunch of restaurants that are run by the same kind of dedicated, somewhat insane, fanatics who just want to cook the very best food they can. That’s where their fulfillment comes from.

To me, Mick Maloney and Supratek, along with a small number of other dedicated hard-core builders, are like those "Chaîne des Rôtisseurs" chefs who schooled me so long ago. You’ll find these builders referred to with deep respect, almost in the same hushed, fanatical, reverent tones. Not all of them are still in business. Some have chose to move on to other occupations. A pity, because their equipment is at that "next level" I’m talking about.

They just like building great stuff! Almost all of them are tiny, boutique builders. Hand built. Point to point wiring. Solid, solid design. Superb execution. FANTASTIC SOUND. Am I saying Supratek is the best? No. I have no basis upon which to express such an opinion, nor, do I believe, does anyone else. There’s simply too much equipment out there, much of it very good, to hear it all. Should it matter that long-term Stereophile reviewer Dick Olsher owns a Supratek? Probably not, but I like it that he does. He can probably own, or obtain on long-term loan, any piece of equipment he desires, from anywhere in the world, regardless of cost.

One final thing to say in this long, rambling, hard-to-follow post. I paid more for my Supratek than I’ve paid for almost anything I’ve ever bought, other than a couple of cars and the houses I’ve lived in. Most of my cars over the last 40 years cost me less than my Supratek. Ya’ know what? I’ve never, not even once, not ever never ever, had one tiny particle of buyers remorse. I’ve only ever had long term satisfaction and gratitude to God that I ended up being in the position where I could afford it and it was available.

So no, I don’t think you’re crazy to be considering a Supratek. I think you’re saving yourself a lot of money, time and hassle.

Just thought of one last thought to share. You *might* be thinking "if Supratek stuff is so good, how come I never see any of it reviewed in the magazines?" Well, consider that Mick’s always sold out and has a waiting list. So do many of the other so highly regarded small-boutique builders. He doesn’t advertise. Doesn’t need to. There’s absolutely no incentive for a magazine to review his stuff. They’ll never earn a penny from him advertising. What does he need? A longer waiting list? Why? Better to keep the public chasing that "next greatest thing" and churning through upgrades that are really side-grades and distractions. After all, if people bought equipment and were satisfied with it, and it lasted forever, where would the industry be?

@markusthenaimnut

Thank you for that post!  Rambling is good.  You hit upon a bunch of thoughts which were tumbling around my brain for a while.  

I think I will be talking to Mick shortly.  And so the next journey begins.

I must be living under a rock as I never heard of Supratek,
I need to go through Margaret River again.

Also there is a some other work being down down south in the state. 

Cortese LCR arrived last week. Took about a month from order to delivery if I was willing to forego bling and go with powder coat. It’s in a dedicated room that not any people see, so, fine by me. First serious tube amp replacing Freya. With only a couple dozen hours on it, it’s showing hints of what’s to come. The line stage is enthralling and the phono stage is intoxicating. How much so? I’m loving it so much with my Chapmans that I’ve been letting a pair of recently acquired vandersteen 7’s sit on their pallets upstairs for a couple weeks. No hurry

My 6SN7 Cabernet arrived Monday. Starting to open up nearing 40 hours in. Like the man said, no hurry. 

Congrats to the folks with the new preamps! It took my Cabernet a little while to really open up. I’ve never put much stock into the concept of burn in but the Cabernet underwent a really big change and burn in is the only explanation I can think of. 

As I am nearing the end of the originally promised 3 month delivery window, I contacted Mick for an update. As expected, the chrome plating 'bling" is causing a delay of 6 weeks. A real hand on heart test of human patience..... Gotta have the bling, though. The unit (Standard Grange Dual LS) will be front and center in our living room. Will report back with updates. In the meantime, continuing to enjoy my excellent Chardonnay LS, now with LinLai Elite 6SN7s - very nice. 

I ordered a Chardonnay 3  January 31st and Mick said mine will have the Linlai 6sn7 tubes also. I guess the chrome plating "bling" has also caused my Chardonnay 3 to be delayed. He did mention the supply chain and sourcing tubes is beginning to cause many delays. Patience is still a virtue.......

Chuckie

Hello all - loving the Syrah! What a big beautiful robust and inviting sound and stage! I'm using it with a Plinius SA201 to drive a pair of Tannoy Stirling GR's and couldn't be happier over all (beyond some noise issues which I'm confident can be solved....). The phono stage is also just superb with the Hana SL cartridge - I was told by a member that would be the case and he was spot on!

It was brought up to snuff by @jslateiv - it looks and sounds terrific. I have a couple of noise issues that I could use some help with. The low gain pass switch setting is very quiet.

1. The Rush. The higher gain pass switch setting has almost a tube rush sound that's pretty loud and doesn't change - same pitch and loudness with manipulating the volume up or down. The tubes are all NOS (and have settled down/opened up SO nicely) - I have some others coming from Brent Jessie that I'll try once they arrive

2. The Hum. The phono has a hum in addition to the rush sound that's there with high and low pass switch and does change with the volume. I wonder if it might be proximity of the gear to the TT or to each other?  To be honest, grounding my modded Thorens 150 with the captive wires (including two ground wires) of the SME M2-9 has always been vexing and I've never gotten the the hum to totally go away, so there may be some of that going on.

Would switching the placement/proximity of the Syrah units to each other and/or the TT help with either the 'rush' or the the 'hum'?

I put a pic on my profile page to help out if anyone cares to take a look, but the TT is mounted to wall with the Syrah linestage 4 inches away and the power unit four inches from that.

My DAC could switch place of either one of the Syrah units. That Syrah unit could then be moved to another shelf and 8 inches or so from my amp.

As an aside, the power for my system is very clean and isolated with a subpanel, ground/line scrubbers, 3 dedicated lines, and a noise suppressing conditioner between the main and subpanel.

Any and all help is appreciated!

Enjoy the tunes,

Art

I turned off the high gain switch on my just-received Cabernet for the reasons you mention. Mick’s design does draw a fair amount of current in start up, although the manual says the noise is ok, i.e., won’t damage the speakers. I blew a pair of 3.15A SR fuses because of it after merely adding ICs for subs, without the latter even having AC cords attached.

I don’t have a phono stage, so adjusting the dac’s volume has been able to compensate. Likewise, I am getting a 60 Hz buzz, just loud enough to be heard at my listening position when everything else is off. That led me to limit the gain knob adjustment to the 12 o’clock position, vs. the 4 o’clock I previously had with the Chardonnay, even with the dac at roughly half volume (I have a regenerator). I haven’t yet rechecked all the connections and ports used. That might be the best first step. The Cab manual does admit the possibility of hum and tube noise issues in finding the best gain settings. Ggod hunting in finding the culprit.

My Chardonnay 3 may function differently (not sure), but I realized that when the gain knob is active, I get noise/hum between 8am and 4pm on the dial, pretty much the entire spectrum except for the very beginning and very end. Hence, I decided to turn off the gain function and instead reduced output by my Hifi Rose RS150B to 500mv. Quiet as a church mouse now, but still have more than enough gain to play loud music.

I humbly suggest you take a close look at how all your cables are dressed. Where they cross, where they parallel each other, how they are seated in the rca inputs & outputs. That has always been the key to getting my system hum-free.

The Cabernet manual states:

"A gain adjustment knob is provided in case preamp is used with high gain power amps, if noise is an issue adjust gain until noise disappears." The same applies to the Chardonnay.

Adjusting cables is a separate matter. Power cables that cross should do so as close to 90 degrees as possible. I use those cheap rubber-covered foam isolator blocks one finds on eBay to keep cords from touching, and those and bamboo glass coasters held together with wood spindles (Michael's) to keep cables off the carpet.

My 20yo Chenin is quiet, all cords and IC;s have those foam pipe tubes cut to length and separates AC from the signal wires.

All components seperated on their own shelf, I had hum at one time and that seemed to resolve it.