Preamp Deal of the Century
Hello Amandarae. Firstly, Congratulations on your supratek acquisition...you will be rewarded in due time! I am certainly no prophet sir,however... I have a sneaky suspician I may be able to somewhat guesstimate the outcome of your next 100 hours of seat time in that wonderfully [so called] humble rig of yours. Sir: Your past and present equipment choices speak volumes. Yes,that mullard/amperex gz34 is a great rectifier and the logical place to start your journey. Rectifiers can make or break any good amplifier especially in a system of such high resolution. The speed and transparency of an Electrostatic speaker is ruthlessly revealing and leaves nowhere to hide. I am a firm believer in getting the tonal balance correct first and foremost in any given room, one will find the rest of the presentation much easier to optimize to ones preferred flavour.Infact.. you may be fine tuning your speaker placement in due time once the supratek has found its voice as the stage of the preamp is almost holographic in comparison to your known references. Regarding the 6L6's and blue gas. Do not be concerned, as many output tubes will exhibit that characteristic,just be sure they test above 90% on a tester. If you have logged in around 40 hours... the rectifier swap should be somewhat noticeable now as the bass resolution of the supratek is world class by anybody's standards.Be prepared, as the astonishing clarity and focus of the supratek is really going to come into its own in the next 50 to 60 hours or so.You will find yourself spinning all those treasured old lp's into the wee hours of the morning only to discover that you never knew they were recorded so well. Enjoy! Stay tuned and check back in. Cheers David |
Ecclectique, Thanks for appreciating what modest equipments I have. I admire your Westminster speaker sir and the rest of your system as well. Back to the issue, it is either you are a prophet or you have some kind of gift to predict the future. Let me explain. After I submitted my previous post, I left with my kids to visit their grandparents. I also left the cd player "on". To tell you the truth, I am a little bit distraught/shaken since the preamp is nowhere near sounding like many of the users reported it to sound and is a big investment for me and I cannot go any further beyond that financially. I'ts been a good 9 hours since we returned home and what do you know! The preamp sounds very different! It is starting to show its real "character" to say the least. Now it is one O'clock Pacific time and I cannot get enough playing my cd's and LP's. The Chenin is opening up bigtime! I think I logged in about 40 hours now(since I first got it)and the change or improvement is undeniably audible. Vocals are better than what I can remember and the overall balance is starting to find its places. So I think my concern is not an issue anymore. I hope that it stays this way and just gets better in time. BTW, I am using the Logans and my room is 12'x14'x8' and the speaker placement is optimal. It's been un-touched since I dialed the position in from my previous preamp. Does the new preamp mean that I have to experiment on the speaker position as well, or recheck it? Also, I will heed your advice and stop changing/rolling tubes for now. You are right, it will just add to the confusion on situations like this. As for the rectifier, I only have the Mullard/Amperex GZ34 at hand. Is that the tube you are talking about? Since we are into tubes, I like to ask if you have a particular experience regarding the RCA 6L6GC tubes. At present, they are what I am using as regulators. I noticed that after an hour or so, there is some bluish hue that I can see from the walls of the tube. Anything less than an hour, the bluish hue are non-existent. Is this normal for these type of tube? Or are they being over driven(B+ too high)? "Once it finds its focus... the tonal balance tweeks and tube rolling flavours suddenly become so much easier to voice in your room.Please, trust me on this, be patient and you will be rewarded." I will do exactly what you pointed out. Thanks for helping me, I really appreciate it. Please pardon my ignorance for "crying wolf" prematurely. Wheewww! Foolish of me. I should have known better since I been reading this thread for two years now. As I had mentioned, this preamp is a big investment for me and sometimes, paranoia takes over when you noticed something new that does not compute with your expectations. I will report back further observations if any. But I have a very strong feeling that most of it will just be praises for this fine preamp we are fortunate to own. I am happy now. Thanks again! |
Amandarae. Wow, You have a lot of very fine equipment in your arsenal. A couple of questions. What speakers are you currently using to voice the supratek???... the logans or the paradigm's. How large is your room and your speakers location in the room. No need for panick sir. Like most new vacuum tubed equipment.....you will need some run in time with the supratek as the transformer,wires and tubes will start to settle in and find its voice after about 100 hours or so. Rolling tubes at this juncture will only confuse the issue further. When I first received mine, I too, felt the same kind of anxiety as it sounded somewhat unbalanced and out of sorts tonally.I was thinking too myself that perhaps I made a big mistake,I was rather disappointed to say the least. So much so, that I put the stock tubes back in the preamp,turned the cd player on repeat and let it play for almost a week before I even went back into the room. The change in tonal balance after 30 or more hours was not suttle to say the least. Not only was it more coherent tonally,but what became immediately apparent was it's superior focus. I don't know the stock 6sn7's that came with your preamp,mine were of chineese origin and are really quite good tonally. A few suggestions to help you get a handle on the voice of the supratek: Tube rolling? Leave the stock tubes in it and roll out the supplied rectifier "ONLY" and replace with a nos equivalent[preferably a mullard]You will probably notice the change immediately however, listen to it for at least 100 hours before changing out the 6sn7's. The 6sn7 will have the largest influence on the tonal balance,more so then any other tube. You will find out that the preamp will improve dramatically after the 100 hour mark and continue to improve even further until 300 hours or more. Once it finds its focus... the tonal balance tweeks and tube rolling flavours suddenly become so much easier to voice in your room.Please, trust me on this, be patient and you will be rewarded. Best of luck. |
Jazzdude and Ecclectique, Much thanks for the info and suggestions! Ecclectique, Yes, I think you are right! The 5692 red base is not as good as the Kenrad in the Supratek but in my system it is alright and does not have that "bass bloom" as I am experiencing with the Kenrads. Mind you, my system(click on system on my thread) is probably not as good as what most guys here have. So please take that as a caution. Having said that, I think it is time for me to panic! The Chenin seems to sound somewhat odd to me lately. I know it's only been almost two weeks since I got it but let me express my concerns and maybe I can get some understanding on why my unit sounds odd. Here you go, For linestage and phono, it seems that my preamp produces a very prominent bass and somewhat recess mids (especially vocals). It sounds like the mids is one notch lower of the entire presentation as oppose to the lows and highs! Highs are good though. I wonder if there is something wrong with my unit or not. I tried various 6sn7's, regulators and tubes in the phono stage to no avail. The only thing I have not replaced is the rectifier. It is still the stock version. Out of the box, the unit sounds great I thought. But now, even if I am still in the "getting to know you" stage, it seems that I am not getting what most folks talk about how liquid this system is. I have no hum issues. The tubes lights fine. The gain toggle switch at the top of the preamp are(two) set to low and tape monitor to off. So what can it be? Also, I noticed that the unit powered up is a little bit hot to the touch even the volume control. I need help! Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Thanks. |
Hello Amandarae. Yes the 6v6 works very well as a regulator in the supratek. Regarding warm up:each and all quality [tubed] preamp stages will take a minimum of 20 minutes of warm up time to come into there own and should be optimum about twice that amount of time. I can see you have figured it out that there is not much point in turning off your SS amp. Regarding the bass balance with the Kenrad black: What speaker are you using? Your phono stage configuration is different then mine however I am really somewhat suprised at your analysis of the red based 5692. Personally... It would be my last pick of nos 6sn7's for the line gain duty in my Syrah.... Funny thing is: it is far and away the choice of tube in my MFA luminescence.Than again, the lumi is somewhat darker sounding the my Syrah. Perhaps this observation is in direct contrast to the Kenrad... because of the bloomy base you are experiencing with the Kenrad. As our own Jazzdude has recommended [more than once I might add]... you mighy want to try a pair of RCA grey glass 6sn7gt's. They are a lot better balanced [tone wise] than the RCA 5692 in the syrah and possess a lot of that organic midband of the Kenrad. Further more, they are a hell of a lot cheaper to boot. In my rig, the 5692 sounds a lot closer to the voice of the sylvania 6sn7gt. Nothing is absolute regarding the voice of this particular octal tube and they certainly all have their own flavor.Do try the RCA grey glass though as they really are sweet and relaxing. Cheers and best of luck. |
Question for Syrah/Chenin owners. How long does it take for your preamp whe you consider it "warmed up" already? Mine is about 20 minutes. Just wondering because it seems that in my system when this warm up time is reach, the layers of the sound becomes richer compared to an already superb presentation at the initial turn on. My amps (SS) are on 24/7. Could be the tubes at the preamp right? Just want to get some feedback. BTW, for the small room that I have (12'x14'x8') my experienced is that the Kenrad VT-231 produces bass that over power/loads the room so much. I thought I have several subwoofers on. Very nice sound but bass is too much IMHO. So far I am satisfied with the RCA 5692 Red Base and the RCA 6L6G tubes. Great combination and I highly "recommend" the pairing. Another one is the Tungsol 5881 and Tungsol 6SN7 Brown base. Very good for acoustic music in my system. As for phono, TungSol 6c4 and Mullard 6DJ8 does the trick for me. I tried Telefunken 6DJ8 but it sounds thin in my set up. cheers |
I emailed someone who is considerably more tube savvy than I, and he said; "6C45P is unique. There is no replacement whatsoever." So, it looks like i bought the 5842's for nothing. They DID NOT WORK in the Syrah. I also emailed Mick, "who ought to know" and he said the same thing. No big deal, because they do sound excellent. Just wish I had some options! |
Hi Joe, I am not sure about the 6c45pi tube. Maybe, Ecclectique is the right person to ask. According to my book, the variants for the 6c4 tubes are: 6c4w, 6c4wa, 6100, 6135(for parallel filament cicuits),EC90, L77, M8080, QA2401, and QL77. No mention of the 6c45pi tubes. BTW, I know your Teres. IMHO, you did a very fine job. cheers... |
Stiltskin, Wow! You are "busy" my friend! I have the Teres TT. I love it and the synergy with the Supratek phono stage (sans cartridge) is very very good. I like to get the Berning amps someday. As of now, I cannot afford it. Besides I am exploring the SET route with my DIY Fostex base Transmission Line speakers. I am waiting for my 300B amp and see how it matches with the Chenin. I really hope that you can get your Chenin preamp very soon. The phono stage is a real "killer" as Slowhand put it on the very first post of this thread. Fortunately for us the Chenin phono incorporates the Cortese phono design. Cheaper tubes(6C4 and 6922) than getting a WE 5842 nowadays in the market IMHO. As for the linestage, well, I am speechless! |
Hello Amandarae!I am truly happy for you... I have not received my Chenin yet...Oh well,Last contact I had with Mick was April 24th, He told me that it should of been done by now and that he got diverted on building a new amp., to match up with the Chenin/Chardonnay models...As for my pre....Mick said two/four weeks max.Thats fine,To date, the only part of my aged system that is left is my Quad 63s ,My Linn went last week, I am searching out a killer turntable arm and cartridge... The short list for a turntable is Teres, Origin Live, Nottingham,V.P.I...This is alot of fun...The amps are going to be easy... One of Micks or David Bernings... I am moving like a herd of turtles on this new system, perhaps by the end of summer or later my sweety and I will be cutn rugs late into the night...again... |
I hope that you receive yours too. It is simply amazing! People who posted their positive experiences here are right on the money! You will forget the period spent waiting once you hear the preamp out of the box! Very special indeed! Currently, I am using the ff(pictures in my system link). Tungsol 5881's RCA Red Base 5692 Sovtek 5AR4 (Mullard metal base in transit already!) Tungsol 6C4 and Amperex BB 6DJ8 for phono. I am not worthy to own this preamp IMHO! cheers |
Cello - if you're Cortese is like mine, it uses E180F (6688)and 6922 tubes for the phono section. The stock Cortese tubes are actually pretty good compared to the expensive NOS variety. The differences in sound resulting from changes in phono tubes is less than the differences produced by the line stage tubes. I've tried quite a few and I think the Telefunken CCa's in the 6922 position are (so far) the best for me. I use Mullard E180F's I picked up for 10 bucks on Ebay and they're okay... not much different than the stock tubes. hope this helps. |
Larry, I can tell you one thing: If you have the 6c45 tube, you're stuck with it. I tried the 5842's, and they don't work. I need to research tube specs to find something that I can sub for the Russian tube. On the other hand, if I keep the gain switch on low I have all of the volume I need (which can sometimes be quite a bit) with no tube noise at all. They get a little microphonic with the gain set to high at higher lisening levels. I think it is a very good tube, but I wish I had some more choices. It is fun using tubes as "tone controls" and different sounds. I had all kinds of fun when I was playing around with the 12ax7's in the Audio Note. I'll keep looking, and let you know.... |
. I am satisfied with what I have done on the Line Stage side ( Mullard EL 37 - Philips Miniwatt / Mullard GZ 34 Miniwatt and Tungsol Black Glass Round Plate 6sn7) for my Cortese and want to do the best I can with the tubes for the phono stage side before my first TT (in twenty five years) arrives in mid to late June. I would love to hear your favorite complement of tubes for the phono stage on either the Syrah or Cortese. I will be receiving a Teres 340 and will match it with a Graham 2.2 and Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum and am clueless on what to do on the tube side. Musicality and an emotive sound are my priorities. I would hope for some good detail and solid bass in that order, but not at the expense of the musicality. I mostly listen to classical (orchestral, chamber music and concertos) , female jazz vocalist and some occasional classic rock. . Any help would be greatly appreciated from our Cognoscenti. . |
Hi guys, the Philips Mini Watt GZ34 tube that Jpms told us about earlier is the best rectifer that I have tried in my Syrah. I have been using a Bendix Redbank 6106, but compared to the mini watt the 6106 sounds kind of "dark". The philips tube has more top end energy. It is not bright mind you, but it gives cymbals more shimmer. The bass may not be as deep, but it has better definition than any rectifier that I have tried. This is a winner. Thanks Juan. |
I just received a pair of Tung Sol round plates 6SN7 GT black glass and plugged them over two days to evaluate the sound in conjunction with the WE 350B used as regulator and Mullard GZ 34 as rectifier in the Sauvignon. The sound is now very much un-offensive, with lots of detail, correct bass definition and timbre, with no real emphasis on any particular frequency. I suppose it sounds great, but, I don't thing it grabs and captivates the listener. Setup: 1. WE 350B 2. Tung Sol Round Plates 6SN7 GT - Black Glass 3. Mullard GZ 34 Then I tried the following combination, with the result being a slightly stronger bass definition, with the still non-offensive, neutral sound. 1. Sylvania 6F6G 2. Tung Sol Round Plates 6SN7 GT - Black Glass 3. Mullard GZ 34 Earlier, when using the following combination, the sound had a very rich, seductive mid-range, which totally captivated the listener at the expense of a very strong, bloated bass definition. The vocals sounded so real, it was almost scary. 1. Sylvania 6F6G 2. Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass 3. Mullard GZ 34 The following combination resulted in a similar sound to the previous, but with slightly less bass, but stil bloated. 1. WE 350B 2. Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass 3. Mullard GZ 34 I hope this run down helps in your quest to fine tune the pre-amp to your musical taste. Does anyone else have any ideas as to whether it's possible to maintain a real seductive mid-range, whilst maintaining the correct timbre for bass definition ? |
OK all, I won a quad of Raytheon "windmill" black plate 5842's yesterday on ebay. Look here: Raytheon 5842 So, now I have a third set to try in the Syrah. I hope these offer considerable performance over the 6c45pi-e. I'm not going to spend $200+ for a quad of WE417a. I just hope it was worth it. Let you know after I get a chance to run them in for a while. Joe |
Joe, . The letter on the tube that I assumed to be an N is as you have suggested, a Cyrillic P (Russian). I will start digging on through your tube website suggestion and elsewhere. . I am guessing that you will run out ahead of me with tube trials since you are already up and running with your Syrah and Teres TT and so I will look forward to your comments on your trials and tribulations. . I am guessing that there are several other Supratek owners that will benefit from your phono stage tube trails. . Thanks, Larry . |
Larry, Oops, I forgot, TT on the way, Supratek in hand. I know there are a ton of choices for the 6922, but that Russian stuff is hard to figure. Not being a tube expert, I think that the 6c45n-e is a hi mu triode like the pi-e in mine. I actually think it is the same tube, because the n actually represents pi, in cyrillic. Look here: TDSL Cyrillic characters That is my favorite tube data site. It will let you know what is an exact match and what is close, and a ton of other data. I know that I use Amperex Bugle Boy 6dj8's for 6922 in the AN and in my CD player. I seems to work well for me. But you have a lot of choices, and a lot of them are not too ridiculously priced. Look at the 6922 thread here. Joe |
Joe, . I have the Cortese and my phono stage arrived with two 6C45N-E ( Russian - Electroharmonix) & two 6922 (JAN Sylvania's made in USA). Keep in mind that I bought my unit used from a first owner and I am not sure if these are the tubes that Mick originally included with the Unit. . I am still waiting for my TT so I have no clue how these current tubes will sound. . I would love to hear ideas with anyone's latest and best suggestions for the 4 tubes on the phono side. . Thanks - Larry . |
Larry, Do you know what tubes Mick is using in your phono stage? If he uses an oddball tube like the 6c45pi, you are going to be very limited as to what you can use. And to top it all of, the damn things are expensive! Well over $100 for a quad. As soon as I find a decent quad, I'll get them broken in and let you know how they sound. Look here, and you'll see what I mean about tubes: NOS/NIB* 1958 Western Electric JW-5842/417A tubes/tube For now, the NOS Russian's are actually sounding quite nice. For something using such a high mu triode in the phono stage, the noise floor is incredibly low. It has brought out the details I could not hear before. Things like .2 g off on VTF, incorrect speaker placement and cable choices all have an audible effect now. Ah, the saga continues.... |
Joe (Jphii), . I don't mind Slipnot's questions in the least. I just wanted to let hom know that there was a wealth of posts on tube rolling listed above. . I am just about to start getting tubes for the phono side and will need help on that end so your questions are quite timely for me. Most of the posts for tube rolling have been for the line stage side. . I will be very curious to hear your results as you work your way through NOS tubes for the phono side. . Thanks, Larry |
Hello, BWhite posted the ff before. "The Chardonnay is 13¼" wide by 12½" deep the unit is about 8½" tall. The power supply is the same width and depth but height depends upon the tube you select. With my GZ32, the power supply is about 5½" tall. Stock the unit is about 4½ inches tall" ...it's all in the archives.... cheers |
Hi Jphii, I have been told that the Amperex Gold Pin 5842 sounds good it the phono section, and also the RCA 5842. Some people swear by the WE417a, but others say it is overhyped. Guess you just have to try them for yourself. I will be very interested in your phono tube impressions. Be sure to post your results. |
Cello, I know what you mean, but nobody has covered the 6c45pi-e, period. I read EVERY post on this thread several times. There seems to have been a tube-rolling thread, but it's disappeared. Until Slowhand let me know about possible alternatives, I was shooting in the dark. I guess that's half the fun of having a custom built preamp. Even Mick told me there was no alternatives to the Russian tube! That's why we gotta keep asking. |
Slipnot . There are several posts with regards to tube complements for the Syrah & Cortese pre's. . Scroll back 2-6 months and look for posts from Ecclectique, Jazzdude, Bwhite, Asa, and Tubegroover. The subject has been extremely well covered by this intelligent, experienced, and articulate group. . I read all of their posts more than once and followed their lead. There was a bit of trial and error but they saved me a ton of time and money. I was much better for the bit of struggle and it has all worked out beautifully on my system. . |
Slowhand, Thanks, I'm was having a hard time finding something I could roll. I had a feeling...but I'm no expert on tube substitutions. I just wanted to know my options. So far, the Syrah is everything it's cracked up to be. Sounds so much better than the pre stage in my Soro. Still playing with tubes. So far I'm running: Tung sol 5881 & Mullard gz34 in the psu Nos 6c45pi-e & RCA gray glass in the pre. Still have a few more tubes on hand to try. I still need to figure out a way to run the Syrah through the Soro without going through the tape loop. Two volume controls is a pain in the a@#. Oh well, it's either that or the Belles 150. Time to sell some kit and get some new tube monos! I'll keep all informed. |
One more thing. Am I the only one who has 6c45pi-E phono tubes? There is one post about 6c45n, but that's it. I have 4 NOS Russian military replacements. But, what else can I use? I have done quite a bit of research, and have found SOME data on this tube, but not much. Will the 417a work? 5842? Any of the myriad 12ax7's? Somebody help! Joe |
Tim, I just got my Syrah, second hand. In the past week I've tried about 20 different tubes, 3 power cords, 5 pairs of ic's, and 2 amps. The sovtek 5881's are not that bad, but I deiced to go with JJ's for now. I didn't want to pull the Tung Sols out of my amp, but that's next. The Mullard rectifier is the only way to go. I like the rca grey glass black base 6sn7gt. And, even thought my system is primarily analog, I'm using the stock phono tubes. They actually sound quite good (not really!). Today is the day I roll phono tubes, I'll let ya know. I started with the cord supplied, went to a silver one, then a Zu. I like the Zu. Now this is where in gets interesting. Since the only ic's are from the pre to the amp, it was easy too. CD doesn't count. They are not made for serious listening IMHO. Started off with one of those $2000 retail here at auction, that you can get for $200 gold/silver/copper/best you ever heard ic's. Sounded like shit. Went to a low dollar (under 100) pair. Sounded about 5 times better. Kept playing around. Now, I happened to have a set of Zu component video cables, extra's from the HT. I feel that's the best video cable you cab buy, so I says "self, lets try it" Wow, works like a charm, and will stay. $75! Any flak I get for this, all I can say is; It works for me, in MY system. Another wierd one. My Belles 150 sounds better than the Audio Note Soro SE. I cannot figure this out, because I use AN speakers, AN cd, and AN speaker cables. So, I might have done something wrong here. It may have to do with the way you have to wire the Soro, because it's not made to be used as a stand-alone amp. I will be playing with this further, and trying to get some help on this board too. So, I guess my point is, all of the set-up ideas given in this thread are fine, but may not work in YOUR system. I spent a lot of money on a NOS pair of Ken-Rad black glass VT231, and I like the RCA's Better, IN MY SYSTEM. So, take it all with grain of salt, try a few different things, and have some fun! BTW, I forgot about the 3 pairs of speaker cables, the AN won hands down. Joe |
I think goertz and purist audio should be in there with the other cable auditions, along with cardas and kimber. i personally did not like the MIT cables I had, but they were from the lower end of their line up. i was like you tim, started off small, with a tube integrated about 2 years ago, and it fueled a big fire. i've easily heard differences in NOS tubes and cables -- have fun! you'll love the supratek. despite a big upgrade bug gnawing at me, i am too scared to change anything in my system now as it sounds SO good. |
Hi jazzdude I Have to laugh at those last two lines, that is great stuff. You know I just wanted to build a small HT system, and now I have jumped in with both feet, and the water is a little over my head, but I am loving every minute of it. I mean a tube preamp as my first preamp, and one that is made in Australia. What can I say, if I am going that far lamp cord cabling and sovtek tubes just won't do. Thanks for the advice. Regards Tim |
You should audition several pairs of cables in your system from www.fatwyre.com, buy the ones you like best. I would try something from Cardas, Kimber, Acoustic Zen, and MIT within your price range. Decide on your interconnects first. Then choose your speaker cables. If you find cables don't make a difference to you, count yourself lucky. In that case, NOS tubes probably won't matter to you either. Think of all the money you are going to save with lamp cord cabling and sovtek tubes. |
