Power conditioner wire gauge? Serious issue

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In my system, I have 2 12 guage dedicated lines (one for power and one for signal components). I do not condition the power amplifier, as it sounds MUCH more lively and transient not going the Panamax M5300 PM power conditioner.

I do HIGHLY suggest quality recepticles (not just hospital grade). Furutech GTX-D is what I am running right now, butt also had great sound from Oyaide R1 (NOT the SWO series), Cardas, and PS Audio...though the PS Audio is the worst of the lot, but still an improvement.

Vthokie83

I had a Panamax conditioner and found that it stole power from the amplifiers. Now using a new conditioner which doesn't restrict voltage.  If you plug directly into the wall with an amplifier there is always noise coming through if the amplifier can't get rid of it.  Plus using precious dedicated outlet spots for the gear is difficult to juggle unless you're willing to commit your wall to an outlet festival.

Lots of good outlet suggestions you have. up the road I can see furutech in my future. 

@vthokie83   @jumia 

All power conditioners steal power.  You need to make absolutely sure that the power exiting the conditoner is still more than sufficient to drive your power amps.  This will be a particular issue with big amps that draw a lot of power -  1.6kW a side for my big old Krells.  The sound will be far more degraded if there is not enough power than if there is a bit of noise left on the line.

@clearthinker

All power conditioners steal power.

Can you explain this?

Are you suggesting that power conditioners can degrade a specification - such as "power factor" ? Therefore, limiting power delivery to audio components?

Power conditioners can use quite a bit of power on their own just to function. Complex designs, large transformers and MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistor, old and cheap tech). Some on the market can use 20 watts plus. That’s enough for a stand-alone CD player.

The power conditioner I own only requires 1 Watt to do its job. Proprietary USA-made design. Over the years, I have found the following to be true:

Power conditioners that require a lot of electricity to work behave more like amplifiers, rather than power filters. Dynamics and overall system performance can be harmed by this.

It's not about the ability to allow the product to function.

It's about impedance along the way and no one seems to understand that.

@mastering92

Thank you.  You have answered your own question.  As you say, power conditioners need power to function and this power has to come from the wall, therefore reducing the power that is passed on to the audio power amplifiers.  Also as you say, the amount of power consumed by the conditioner will vary according to its design.  All I am saying is that the net power leaving the conditioner needs to be comfortably sufficient to power the amplifier.

We are in agreement.

@clearthinker 

Right on! Thanks for your response.

😀

All power conditioners steal power.

@clearthinker

This isn't entirely correct. A good power conditioner will do nothing of the sort.

Many 'conditioners' are passive devices and so probably do limit current (and so have a voltage drop) but if the conditioner is an actual bona fide conditioner, it will not only clean up the power but it will also insure that the output voltage does not sag and current (up the limit of the conditioner) will not be limited.

There are very few examples of actual power conditioners in high end audio. PS Audio probably makes one of the better ones out there.

There is a company called Elgar that made real power conditioners a long time ago (they got out of that market in the early 1980s). Their conditioners had guaranteed distortion specs and regulated the AC line voltage. They made some that could handle 28 Amps! This means your entire room could have clean power. If you run across an Elgar it will likely need refurbishment- new filter capacitors in its power supplies and so on. They are built for 24/7 service and use a sophisticated system to insure that the AC they produce is clean with no voltage drop.

Buy a Kill-a-watt meter and put your mind at ease. You'll most likely find that you are pulling way less amps than the wire can handle and have a very high MoS.

Several years ago I measured my entire system through one of these and was just under 5 amps full tilt with mono amps and tube preamp, etc.

P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor (amazon.com)

@atmaspheres30 

Thank you.  I know you have knowledge of these things.

Since the action of conditioning the power must consume some of it, the conditioners of which you speak presumably have power supplies of their own to make good the loss.

You speak of 'no voltage drop'/  Agreed, we don't want voltage drop, the power supply companies give us enough of that (entirely free of charge).  But neither do we want capacity drop that limits the watts the audio amp can draw.

All this can be easily accommodated if the power conditioner manufacturer publishes accurate measurements of the voltage and kW output for given inputs.

@jumia "It's about impedance along the way and no one seems to understand that"

I would add more functions such as removing odd/even mode harmonics, noise, and isolation as well. 

Since the action of conditioning the power must consume some of it, the conditioners of which you speak presumably have power supplies of their own to make good the loss.

@clearthinker

They do.

The PS Audio, if I understand correctly, employs a low distortion oscillator that gets amplified by the power amp inside and then drives a power transformer. To keep the power draw of the device down they are probably using a control transformer for this task.

In the Elgar, there is also a low distortion 60Hz oscillator. It is synchronously locked to the AC line. The AC power goes through an enormous isolation transformer. This transformer has a set of windings for the power supply of the built-in power amp. The main output of the transformer is compared to the oscillator. A difference voltage is thus created and amplified by the power amp. The output of the power amp is applied to a feedback winding on the transformer. In this way the output of the unit is kept low distortion (no harmonics, especially the 5th which is the most problematic). The output voltage of the power amplifier is also used to 'buck' the isolation transformer, providing boost or decrease as needed. In this way its also able to regulate the line voltage without current limiting. Pretty cool!

In both cases the active circuitry draws power of its own. Care is taken to minimize the power draw; regardlesst does not rob voltage from the output in either case.

We used a PSAudio 20Amp unit at AXPONA last year. The hotel line voltage got down to 110V or less at times but our voltage in our room was always at exactly 120V.

Elgar seems really cool, any comparable conditioners out there? It seems to be a well thought out device and most of the devices these days lack the ability to understand what the hell is going on inside them. They all sound so fancy but fail to really explain themselves very well. 

@atmasphere     Thank you for this detail.  You have the knowledge of these things and your posts are very informative.

I have gone the path of reconfiguring the power supply in my home and I am happy with the sound I get from a fairly upmarket system.  I sometimes wonder what improvement power conditioners might achieve, but at my age I might not hear it.

Besides, even PS conditioners would probably have trouble powering my Krell KRS200s, upgraded by Krell to 400w per side.  They draw power like room heaters.  But I won't be parted from them.

@atmasphere , is this Elgar thing you mention also called an AC power supply? I signed quite a few requisitions for AC power supplies for the EE lab and reliability lab. Keysight was one of the brands we bought. I cannot remember the other. We were lucky to pick up I think 5 nearly new from a company that was going under. We sell worldwide so we need to be able to generate any supply voltages our customers may use both for design, and reliability testing.

Hi. Here we tried a normal 4 mm2 x3 (neutral, hot and Earth) ofc copperwire from the main fuse and 15 mtr to the system, works well. Main fuse is 16 A 250v  

Them we took the same wire and added 2 more runs of the same cable = 3x4mm2 = 12 mm2, nothing else changed and it was way better. 
 

Bigger more calm soundstage and more dynamic especial in the bas.

why? No idear but maybee the transients in the Music demands much more current 

in Pico second or the 12mm2 actually works as instans powerstore but it works.

regards

is this Elgar thing you mention also called an AC power supply?

@thespeakerdude Elgar still makes those. I've not tried them to see how they compare to their older power conditioners. So I can speak to how well they will work, but I suspect they will work just fine. The ones I've seen allow you more output voltages and also variable line frequency.

@atmasphere ours will all cover 47-63Hz, and the 90-290V we need for validation and reliability testing.

Elgar still makes those. I've not tried them to see how they compare to their older power conditioners. So I can speak to how well they will work, but I suspect they will work just fine. The ones I've seen allow you more output voltages and also variable line frequency.

Oops Dept.: the word 'can' as in 'So I can speak' was supposed to be 'can't'. Sorry about that.