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PS Audio has focused its company efforts on power conditioning and regenerators for many a year. Their stuff is hand assembled in Boulder CO, and is built like a tank. I have a P5 regenerator and it is fantastic. If the cost of that is prohibitive, then you should try the Dectet power conditioner. The link below is from Music Direct which carries the Dectet. PS Audio itself is currently out of stock. What's really nice about the Dectet is that it has a duplex outlet dedicated to the needs of high current power amps and then two isolated zones comprised of four outlets each. One zone for any analog equipment and then another zone for digital. At $499.00 I would consider it a bargain and you won't have to worry about restricting power to your amps. Hope this helps. https://www.musicdirect.com/power/ps-audio-dectet-power-center |
First you need to find out if the voltage fluctuates wildly. Where I live it does from 116V to 127V, American current, so I have to use the regenerator. If the voltage is stable you don't really need a regenerator, only very good passive conditioner and power cords, including the cord from the wall to the conditioner.
My PS Audio Premier spends too much energy for itself when it has to correct the voltage a lot and/or when the current is particularly dirty, and as a result the dynamics suffers. However, without it the system is unlistenable in the daytime and early evening. And I mean it, it becomes a big boombox. Newer P5 and P10 are said to be better. |
Of course your system sounds better at night: it is a lot quieter and a lower noise floor means more system resolution.
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@inna I had the PS Audio Premier, actually 2 of them. My first one suffered a complete regenerator failure as I was trying to run my entire system including power amp off of it and it just couldn't handle it. PS sent me another new Premier which worked well without the power amp connected. I had that running off a PS Duet.
A few months ago, I took PS up on their trade-in program to get a P5. After a few good discussions with customer support, I was assured that I could run my entire system through a P5 with no sweat. I'm happy to report that everything I was told is correct. With my line stage, SACD player, phono stage, two outboard power supplies (one for phono stage, other for the modded SACD player plus a heavily modified McCormack DNA-1 amp plugged into it and I am using 38% of its power delivery capability.
Listening to Keb Mo's "Slow Down" disc right now at live volume and it is dynamic as He**.
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@willemj The happy listening at night is more likely the result, especially if you live in an urban area or near an industrial zone, of fewer devices being used on the same grid introducing all kinds of distortion into the AC.
Had a dramatic demonstration of this at a stereo shop years ago which was right next to a pizza shop. When that pizza joint prepared to close and they shut down all the ovens and grills the sound was transformed. Not sure I would have believed that could make such a difference had I not experienced it for myself.
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Thanks to everyone for all your input, it’s great to get a range of opinion. The Dectet looks like an ideal solution so thanks hifiman for that spot on reccomendation.
Re background noise - whilst I do live close to an industrial area and town centre, my house is a way off the main road and the immediate area is very quiet, plus my listening room has double layered rockwool between brick and sound proofed plasterboard so it’s very quiet inside and means I can crank up the volume late at night without upsetting the neighbours!
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soma70
PSaudio makes some nice stuff and they are easy to talk to-ask questions. I have had the Premier and traded up to the P10. The P10 works great, but i would not plug a medium size amp or large amp into it. I found they sound best direct to the wall. Sound stage suffered when amp was plugged into the P10, but still a very good unit. I now use High Fidelity MC 6 Hemisphere. Made a big difference in sound across the board better than the P10. The down size is you give up surge and spike protection. MC 6 Hemisphere is not for amps, front end gear only.
Good luck
Pete |
Thanks Pete. Appreciated. I will revisit your advice when I look at regenerators. |
Yeah, power management, including power cords, is complicated and should be tailored to a particular application. In some ways more than the rest of the system. Great interconnect will sound at least very good with anything, even RCA. |
used Topaz isolation transformer - hospital grade & inexpensive
It will not cure any RFI problems you may have. but should solve nearly any AC line issues for a low cost.
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Some people report that power regenerator limit dynamics. The peak current demands of power amplifiers can greatly exceed their nominal rating. I have been very pleased with the performance of my Equi-tech 1.5 kVa balanced power supply. Essentially it’s a very large ~30kg toroidal transformer feeding multiple outlets from a 20 amp mains outlet. The thing is, I don’t know if it “translates” to UK power. In North America, household power is supplied as single phase 120 volts. This is delivered by a 3-conductor system: 1 wire is “hot,” 1 wire is “neutral” and 1 wire is ground (earthed). At the circuit breaker box where the main power enters the building, the neutral wire is tied to the ground wire. So, the potential difference between hot and neutral is 120v and the potential difference between neutral and ground is zero. Under normal operation, the electricity flows between hot and neutral, and the ground is for safety. A balanced power supply splits the 120 volts into 2 60 volt legs, running 180 degrees out of phase with each other. The hot wire carries one phase and the neutral wire (on the output side of the transformer) carries the other phase. The ground carries no electricity. So, because of the phase relationship, the potential difference between hot and neutral is still 120 volts. Because of common mode rejection, much of the noise is attenuated; and the very large inductor stores energy to accommodate peak current demands. I have noticed the effect of this is to significantly improve the performance of two different CD players I have owned and also two different subwoofers. PS Audio’s regenerators also deliver balanced power.
What I don’t know is how this translates to a British system. In the US 220-240 volts also is supplied to houses for high-demand uses such as cooking stoves and ovens, clothes dryers, domestic hot water heaters and central air conditioning systems. That is supplied in balanced form. There are 3 conductors, 2 hot and one ground. Each out conductor carries 120 volts, but they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. So, the potential difference between them is 240 volts. So, it may be that, in the UK you are already receiving balanced power. If that is the case, then North American power conditioners, etc., which are designed for the single-phase 120 volt system, will be of no use to you. A 240 volt version of a PS Audio power plant may be of some use (because the power is regenerated and voltage-stable), but it will not provide you with nearly the benefits it provides a North American customer because you are already getting balanced power.
Sorry for the length of this. |
dc-bruce, thank you, very educational. |
You should check your electrical panel ground connection from end to end and see that it’s not loose or corroded. Any external EMI from commercial motors, etc., can make that induced noise worse through poor grounding. |
Don’t want to hijack the thread or anything, but this may help also with the edification angle a bit. I apologize in advance for the stoopidly long post.
There are generally two different possible reasons for voltage instability: one originating from outside the home and the other coming from inside.
From outside, it usually means the local utility is having problems keeping up with demand during peak hours of the day and they dial back the voltage just a bit during those times as one of the ways to help alleviate the problem for themselves. But it can lead to voltage irregularities at certain times. This general pattern may wax and wane seasonally (if the utility is regularly stressed), possibly only becoming noticeable in summer and winter months, depending on your climate in the part of the country you live in. It basically can be thought of as a climate-vs-usage thing.
From inside, it’s caused by a mismatch of either (or both) of your electrical consumption patterns on a daily, weekly or monthly basis or also by a mismatch in your usage vs the particular branches of circuits from your breaker box.
Let’s start with the electrical consumption based on time frames first. If there’s anything that routinely happens in your household that can be thought of as an out-of-the-ordinary change in consumption patterns that involves a large voltage pattern swing, that could be an indicator of a basis for voltage instability. Like, for example, say, your HVAC turns ON and OFF throughout the day/night - that would be considered a normal usage pattern...no problem there. But, if, say, you’re somebody who lives alone and is under the impression that turning OFF all or most of the circuit breakers at night is a good idea (either in an effort to reduce EMI/RFI in the home, or to just to save on the monthly bill), then that may constitute more of a ’shock to the system’ for the home. That’s just a more dynamic swing of the total usage pattern: ON during the day vs OFF at night - that’s a bit more out of the ordinary as far as the home’s electrical system is concerned. Or, if the owner is out of town frequently and leaves the home with the main breaker OFF for days or a week or more at a time - another such situation that will lead to voltage instability from inside.
Now we look at mismatches in the individual circuits from the breaker box. Ideally, for optimal voltage stability within the home, it would be great if every circuit was operating at about 80-85% of maximum circuit rating and all circuits stayed that way 24/7....and nothing was ever turned OFF or ON and the load remained constant. If, say, you had a 15A circuit, then the ideal load here (mainly for industry safety reasons) should, in this theoretical model here, be as close to a steady 12A or so as possible...and remain that way indefinitely. Having treated all circuits this way and after 3 or so weeks of this condition, and indeed from thereafter, we could expect virtually zero voltage instability from within the home.
In your own breaker box, look for circuits that continually are going unused (more commonplace in larger homes). Active breakers - especially those with higher amperage ratings - that never have, or seldom have, any load can be the culprits in voltage irregularities within the home! Perhaps especially if most of them are located on one phase (vertical stack of breakers inside the box). If you find Any such circuits, the best and simplest solution from an audio standpoint here is to simply plug something in at the wall to this circuit leg that will present more of a stable load for the circuit. It might be nice for it to be 80-85% of max, but really anything would be better than nothing. You can take some devices from other breaker circuits that are perhaps a bit "full up" at the moment and redistribute the electrical load a bit better throughout the home. Over time (see paragraph below) your AV system will thank you for it!
Note from the above that in real life, All homes can expect to experience at least Some (nominal for our audio considerations) level of voltage instability from time to time simply because we deviate a bit from that continuous ideal. But, it’s maybe interesting to note that our routine deviations typically do not cause us to experience wild or rapid voltage fluctuations in everyday life. Even when our usage patterns can start or stop with certain devices or appliances all during the day...and then slow down at night. That doesn’t seem to us to cause wild fluctuations in voltage, but that is because the effects of the ON/OFF cycle, or "shocks to the electrical system" (sudden changes in load), do not all onset immediately (with the exception of the voltage drop itself, which is instantaneous), but its after effects actually take days and even weeks to settle out in the home’s entire electrical circuit. This process is ongoing in slow motion as it were for every device being turned ON or OFF home-wide, and the overall voltage stability of the house (in this case for the moment we’ll consider it separate here from the voltage condition from outside the home), at any given time, can be thought of as the amalgamation of all the electrical activity or inactivity in the home over the past few weeks. So just because you turned OFF your main breaker last night and flipped it on again this morning, doesn’t mean that your audio system will necessarily fully experience all the voltage instabilities from that - Today - (again, the two, immediate voltage drops here notwithstanding).
Remember also, of course, that it’s possible for a home to be experiencing voltage instabilities coming from both the inside and outside at the same time.
Returning you to your regularly scheduled programming. |
Your sound being better at night is pretty normal, but it doesn't mean you have bad power. I would pick one of the less costly options as mentioned, and test that option at "night." Then, does your system sound better with the conditioner or without it? Without the conditioner test, I would plug the amps directly into the wall?
Kenny |
I wasn't sure, so I just checked the PS Audio site. Their old re generators put out balanced power, but the newer P-3,5,10 do not. Paul feels that balanced power is good, but not from a transformer. Anyway, I'm not looking to butt in here, but since I have also been considering a P10 I thought it best to mention. If anyone can confirm the balanced power question that would be helpful.
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the isolation trans. needs to be sized to your system's power demands to prevent it from limiting dynamics
power quality should be better at night in a large city or near a commercial district
In an R1 zone not so much
I am having my elec. utility put a measuring device on my meter head and they say they can also do RF checks - already have a few moths data from the sub-station I draw from but not too helpful at the 12 kV range... |
Thanks to everyone for the additional input which is all very interesting. I just need to note here that I am based in the UK (so some of the suggested products are not available here) and I did install a dedicated 20 amp feed from the breaker box with its own ground and so I believe the internal power is pretty good. PS Audio supply in the UK and so I plan to buy a Dectet and will report back if that makes an improvement to SQ during the day...I need to sell a mini-dsp on eBay before I can purchase the Dectet but promise to report back here as soon as I am able. |
Take a look at PI Audio Group: http://www.piaudiogroup.com - Dave is AMAZING to work with. He helped be select the best solution that is well suited for my setup. He *really* knows his stuff. My UberBUSS ( http://www.piaudiogroup.com/UberBUSS.html) will be in my system soon so I can't talk about performance in my system just yet. I will be sure to post an in-depth review as soon as I have put some listening hours in. Until then... head over to the site and check it out! -Ron |
@ivan_nosnibor
that was such a helpful post.
Can I just say that regenerators can sometimes compress dynamics when there is a large or sudden current draw. So you may get smoothness and quietness at the cost of dynamics and range. Have the amp designers ever recommended anything? |
Glad it was of help. That's true what you say about regenerators. I don't use one. I've never been aware of any amp designers that seem to be following the issue that closely (or perhaps many even at all, really).
I did have really good luck with a company called Alan Maher Designs (facebook or alanmaherdesigns.net). One of the very few power conditioning strategies that doesn't have any sonic drawbacks, unlike conditioning. Much of it is passive and draws no electricity to work. You can use it with any equipment and with any amp under the sun, no matter how much current or wattage it may draw from the wall - so there's never any issue about dynamics or power ratings.
One piece of AMD I bought (this one Not passive)(Alan sells his designs in piecemeal so that you can treat whatever noise sources you have directly at the problem's source, rather than just trying to treat the last 6 feet of wire), a "QPS" (Quantum Power Station, if memory serves) is designed to act as an AC power reserve for your system. As AC line levels drop below a certain voltage, the system as needed starts tapping into the power reserves that the QPS has been storing up until the low AC line levels are restored...up to about 800 watts on tap with the QPS...and as the line levels are good the QPS recharges itself and continually maintains a full tank. I think that item was around $500 if I recall and the version of it I have is no longer in his lineup, but I'm sure he has an alternative and, knowing Alan like I do, it's likely better than the one I have...and may even cost less, I dunno, but Alan would be the one to talk to directly on that. I did not have too, too many voltage irregularities beforehand, but since plugging in the QPS at the system duplex, I've had absolutely none...although, in truth, I know that's likely not All due to the QPS since I also own sooo many more AMD products to treat an array of different problems in the system and around the home...all aimed at better sound, so all that is contributing to one degree or another as well. All AMD products electrically "see" each other on the home's circuit - the more pieces you add in your quest for better sound, the more of a slight performance boost they all give to each other. I have well more than 50 products installed, so the boost I'm getting now is tremendous with each new piece...and over the last few years I've seen his products get more effective and cost less than earlier versions - none of which helps my addiction!
All of these sorts of discussions about various power-related issues and solutions tend to be good, unless your home has an actual problem that needs to be addressed separately....a DC component in the AC, serious grounding issues, etc. But if anyone might be having trouble along these lines, the I'd like to point out that Alan does not consider himself the owner of an audio company. He calls himself a grounding specialist. He does consultation for any residential and any small and medium-sized businesses in the US. He is one of the few fully certified building biologists in North America. He's also well acquainted with power grid systems worldwide, so he can answer questions on that as well. He also has a successful side business as a mastering engineer (digital). I'm not affiliated with Alan in any way except as a very satisfied customer. Contacting Alan by fb message is the best best, but you can call him, too. I think his number is on his site.
Just for reference here, but if you're thinking of trying any one of his products, Alan prefers that new customers buy two initial products first (regarding the power coming in at the meter and also the breaker box) and after that, you're in a good position to look over the rest of the catalog if you're looking to solve a particular problem...or if not, you could leave at the improvements in sound and picture right there and call it a day. These 2 products should be installed first in order to "chase", "corral" or "steer" the noise nodes that build up at these locations and drive them further into the home where they can be better dealt with by other AMD devices. They are as easy to install as wrapping a piece of paper, and taping it up, around the incoming PVC pipe and inside the breaker box door...takes about 10 minutes...costs about $350 or so for all of it. I just didn't want to create the impression here that anyone should just be able to pick out any piece in the catalog willy nilly and get the best from it straight away. But, Alan is your guide for all that. |
a properly sized Topaz will not compress dynamics |
I have ordered the Dectet today and will report back in a week or two.
I was also helped by the posts above to realise that I needed to make sure that there was nothing else in the power delivery chain which could contribute towards noise/lowering the SQ.
I have therefore also ordered new better quality power cords for all the kit and will replace the standard cables that I have been using.
I will separate the upgrades so that any future readers will gain some relative feedback for the Dectet in isolation.
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@soma70 I look forward to hearing about your experience with the Dectet. What power cords did you order?
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I've tried many and kept none. They all change the sound, and add warts.
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Hey String - I’m sure you experience is shared by many others. I think if anyone can get a conditioner right then it has to be PS Audio. Did you use any of their products?
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I'm late to the discussion, but I want to share my experience with installing an isolation transformer into my system. I have tube system consisting of class A mono blocks, phono preamp and line stage. Together all components draw about 5 amps from the wall. I am on a 15 amp dedicated circuit and have never had an issue of limited power or breaking the circuit breaker. I have a Furman P-2400 IT which is a 20 amp device, so I think it's sized properly for my system.
Like you, I live in a city with all kinds of noise, electrical, radio frequency, and environmental noise (traffic, sirens, subways, etc).
The affect is pure music. More of everything good, the noise floor is gone in the music. I am now hearing more detail, harmonic textures all the way down in the lowest bass registers. And dynamics, wow, I'm hearing dynamics like I have not heard before in my system.
I think there is a distinction between a power conditioner and an isolation transformer. I can say with very positive results in my system, the isolation transformer will not have any negative downsides, only positive benefits to a very large degree depending on the resolution of your system. |
First of all, I need to explain that that, at the same time as
buying the Dectet, I also bought some after market power cables. So what follows
is actually a review of the Dectet with new power cables, not my system as
before.
A review of the Dectet with better power cables actually makes
more sense because it’s now more revealing of any changes. PS Audio also recommends using an after-market
PC with the Dectet, to get best results.
I have taken two weeks to fully burn (over 200 hours)
in the new PC's and the Dectet. I gave the process lots of time to give
it the best chance of success and to be sure of any differences I could pick up, with
and without the Dectet in play.
At the risk of high jacking my own thread, the change with
the new PC’s (no Dectet) was overwhelming. I can’t believe I had been sceptical
for so long. Easily one of the biggest improvements to SQ I have experienced. I
now understand what a black background means. It’s a very strange concept to
find you can’t hear the noise when it’s there, but you certainly know about it once
it’s gone.
The PC’s I bought
were £40 each, OCC copper, de-oxit treated, gold plated, twisted and dual shielded
with an AudioQuest IEC. I figured these were some pretty good specs for the price
and so bought four of them. The company is called W&M Audio.
Getting back on topic, my system sometimes sounded flat during
the day, it was not engaging and the theory to be tested was whether electrical
noise in the mains was the issue and if the Dectet could remove it.
Ambient back ground noise was also a suggestion and so I did
check the background noise and compared during the day and night. It was the same
at an average of 30db for both.
So I plugged in the Dectet and initially I heard no difference.
The sound then changed quite a bit over the next week (which may have
also been the PC’s burning in some more) and so I just kept it playing 24 hours a day until everything settle
down and the sound stabilised.
What I was left with was really disappointing. The sub-bass became
very strong and the upper bass disappeared. The highs were dry and everything
just sounded wrong. It was either the new (cheap!) PC cables or the Dectet so I took it
out of the chain and plugged everything back directly into the wall. It sounded great. Everything just came back to how it should be and now the system
is much more consistent and, whilst the sound still varies, it’s much less and more enjoyable, regardless of the time of day or night.
So it would seem that some of the issues I was having with a
drop in SQ during the day were due to noise getting into the system via the cheap
power cords.
My experience with the Dectet was not good but there are plenty
of other reviews out there which find the opposite. I have returned the Dectet
to the retailer and who have kindly offered to refund. No downside here as far as I am concerned and a worthwhile process to undertake.
The conclusion here has to be, for anyone thinking of buying
a power conditioner, make sure you upgrade your PC’s first.
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I have used PS, but go "commando" for my taste. It takes me awhile to adjust to the new sound, but once the warts are revealed, I simply can not tolerate them. Try it, but have a return option if it doesn’t please your system. Power cords do make a difference in my system.. I made my own with the very top Furutech ends and Accrolink cable.... very easy to do....very pleased Dead quiet.
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This is an excellent conclusion - power cords first. Exactly. |
soma70,
I'm not an "expert", nor a shill; in fact I was a little skeptical about power conditioning as a concept. However, like you, and I assume many others, I noticed a marked improvement in sound in the wee hours, so I tried a power conditioner expecting very little gain in sound quality. I bought the Blue Circle PLC FX2 X0e because it seemed to offer the most bang for the buck. I was very pleasantly surprised! It afforded a clarity to the sound of music, that was not at all subtle. I suspect there are many more learned members whose experience will advocate for some other device, and that's fine. This is why there are many options. I have not tried any other power conditioning devices; I can only tell you that that this one is enhancing my listening experience. |
For obvious reasons most people will not want to bring an industrial transformer into their home, no matter the difference it makes. Commercial audio solutions are more appropriate for most people. |
I have a PS Audio P5 which I am trying in place of a Blue Circle conditioner. So far I prefer the BC unit. |
I use the Burmester 948 Power Conditioner and it suits my needs. The power cable is the Burmester supplied one and have replaced the connectors with Furutech NCF connectors.
My Pre, Power and CD/Dac are pure class A. |
