Hello, Assuming I have separate DAC, and I just want to play songs from iPad by Airplay feature. In this case, I need a streamer to receive music from my iPad -> DAC.
What’s the point of high price streamer? I’m bit surprised that some streamers are very high priced. From my understanding, there should be no sound quality difference. (Streaming reliability and build quality, I can see it but I do not see advantages in terms of sound quality.)
Am I missing something? If so, please share some wisdom.
Because it is not just a nice idea in theory, it is factual in practice. With asynchronous USB, there is absolutely no timing data incorporated in the data stream. None, zip, nada, 0. It is not a matter of resolving arrival timing errors .... there are none to resolve. This statement shows gross ignorance about how the stuff he is supposed to be an expert on actually works.
Then comes the argument that the DAC will resolve all data
arrival-timing errors by first buffering them and then re-clocking them
before sending them onto the decoder chip. That’s a nice idea in theory
but experience tells us otherwise.
You asked for one. I jumped through your hoop. There are more errors in this document. But this is so gross an error to make all others pointless to point out.
PSAudio’s digital guru, Ted Smith, has some interesting thoughts on digital theory versus actual practice and listening experience. He posts frequently on their forums. No one is perfect, but he seems to have the knowledge, experience and practical expertise to explain many phenomena and the humility to shrug his shoulders about others. I hear what I hear and I am merely fascinated by what we discover as we learn more. There was a time when people doubted that minor firmware changes in DACS could result in clear changes in audible performance. Ted knows why. I heard those audible differences before I ever heard him explain it. My ears are my ultimate authority for what I purchase. I respect the scientific expertise necessary to build those products. I do not need to fully understand the science to enjoy the results. Nor am I troubled by those who doubt what I hear. All streamers are not created equal. That is what my ears tell me. If they all sound the same to someone else, I say, “Be Well and Prosper.”
@rhg88 This streamer thread has diverged to room correction. However, I am in total agreement with you on the room correct issue. I have an acoustically treated room and my software based room Digital Room Correction is very important piece in my system equation. I have perfect sound now in a really tiny crappy room with big speakers.
That altered digital stream of DRC bits from my ROON Server is sent via my streamer, a microRendu, to the USB input of my DAC. I think the content inside that stream is way more important than how it gets to my DAC. Why do I say that? Well, I just go into my ROON Server and toggle the switch to add DRC to the stream. When DRC is turned on the sound is glorious when it is turned off the room dominates with problems. The quality of my stream (subject of this thread) is a much lower concern until my room was dealt with.
BTW - I actually do not need to use the physical room acoustic treatments with the software DRC I am using. I kept them because I already had them in place before I did the software based DRC. My DRC runs on ROON Server.
Except those are not minor changes. They are significant changes in the digital reconstruction filters that have direct impacts on the output. They are intentional modifications of the signal.
There was a time when people doubted that minor firmware changes in
DACS could result in clear changes in audible performance. Ted knows
why. I heard those audible differences before I ever heard him explain
it.
@jaulbrich The streamer is just conveying the digital content. A CD transport can vary based on its ability to correctly read a CD and manage errors. The streamer is just taking the ones and zeros from the source (e.g. Tidal) and passing those data, verbatim one hopes, to the DAC. Are there errors to make up for? I don’t know, but I should hope there would be error correction that doesn’t rely on the streamer. This is computer data. Qualitative changes can happen in the DAC, sure. But not before, I’d think. But maybe I misunderstand how this works?
Of the eight or nine streamers I have auditioned in my own system, I hear the biggest SQ differences between streamers whose manufacturers take power management and design seriously and those who do not. Additionally, vibration damping and build quality of digital outputs appear to have some impact on the SQ I have heard. That said, I’ve never found the SQ differences between competently constructed and designed streamers and DACs to be nearly as dramatic and obvious as, say, phono cartridges or even between high quality versus poorly made vinyl record pressings. But I’ve only heard a small portion of the devices available for purchase. That said, any product that reduces “digital listening fatigue” is something I’m willing to pony up a bit of cash for...within the limits of my budget and priorities. Suffice it to say, getting the entire digital recording and playback chain “right” is no walk in the park. My hat is off to any designer or company that manages to make digitally reproduced music more faithfully resemble the original sound that was recorded.
I should add that one way that I am thinking of improving my streaming quality, now that I have the room tamed, is using Fibre Optical cable. One way that streaming can degrade in quality is when analog noise goes from Ethernet to the DAC. My microRendu should have this issue, though I don't know if that is the case since I have not compared anything "better". My understanding is that Fibre Optical cable (I do not mean Toslink) cannot carry analog noise from the 1's and 0's being transferred on the Ethernet wire.
The cleanest solution to this that I know is the Lumin X1 DAC which has a Fibre Optical input. You get a network switch like this,
and connect a Fibre Optical cable ($50) between the 2. Likely the best streaming quality you can achieve. Unfortunately the Lumin X1 is $15K. However, if what I am saying is not BS (I have not tested this myself yet) then I expect more DAC manufacturers to have this as an input. If they can have I2S as an input why not Fibre.
I emailed Alvin of Vinshine (Denafrips) about this (and other topics) and he said they were aware of Fibre's benefits but it is not the highest priority at the moment.
Do you really take your hat off for this? I suspect the sound you are attempting to achieve is nothing like what was originally played. Vinyl most definitely is not "true to the source". Boring, technically accurate, digital is. You may not like it, but it is.
vhiner541 posts12-28-2020 2:50am My hat is off to any designer or company that manages to make digitally reproduced music more faithfully resemble the original sound that was recorded.
For a DAC manufacturer to add a fully isolated data interface to carry audio, let's say 32/784 to cover all possible cases, we are talking <$10 in volume, perhaps $25-50 for a low volume manufacturer and I am being pretty generous.
Your analysis of fiber optic is correct, but keep in mind Ethernet already is galvanically isolated though there is a path for high frequency noise.
yyzsantabarbara1,909 posts12-28-2020 3:00am My understanding is that Fibre Optical cable (I do not mean
Toslink) cannot carry analog noise from the 1's and 0's being
transferred on the Ethernet wire.
I have a node 2i that serves my purposes, but truth be told I don’t think I engage in "critical" listening as many here. I listen many hours a day going about my routines now that I’m retired and social distancing.
I may have missed it here, but my question is does the identical streamer produce a different sound when used on different internet providers feeds? For example, what difference can or cannot one expect when the only variable is using Xfinity versus Frontier or Verizon or EarthLink?
Same question regarding the impact on sound of using different brand/model modems with the identical internet provider and streamer?
The Node2i is SPDIF out so there is potential for jitter introduction. If you were connected via wired internet, there is potential for the different routers (and their power suppliers) used by the different service providers to introduce electrical noise. If you have differences with WiFi you have bigger problems.
@yyzsantabarbara, I introduced fiber into my streaming solution a few weeks back. I skipped on using the Optical Rendu as I didn't want to limit my DAC input to USB. My NAS and Roon server (Intel NUC running ROCK) are two stories away from my listening room; I connect two switches using MoCA to bridge that distance and then run fiber from an equipment closet in the basement into my listening room that connects into an Uptone EtherREGEN. Then a short CAT8 cable connects to my streamer a Bricasti M5 and another short SPDIF and USB cable connects to my DAC.
I heard a small improvement switching to fiber from copper on the A side of the EtherREGEN, but relatively speaking it wasn't near as large as what I heard by replacing my Pi with Digi+ SPDIF out to the Bricasti M5 SPDIF out.
If you really want to debate 1s vs 0s, checkout the forums on audiophilestyle where some folks already running fiber mention the differences they hear by switching SFPs :)
@yyzsantabarbara Thank you for your response to my question regarding room correction. I will read the threat that you have pointed me to.
Regarding your suggestion of replacing the USB connection by optical to prevent analog noise contamination riding along a digital signal in your microRendu, it appears that an important enhancement to decrease noise in the microRendu is to use a linear power supply to power it, instead of its original switching power supply.
There is an interesting post in audio science review (ASR) which shows how the performance of the microRendu improves significantly when you power it with a decent linear power supply.
I think that some of@Audio2design posts and comments are quite insightful. Perhaps the rest of the contributors can lower the level of personal attacks.
@yyzsantabarbara Thank you for your response to my question regarding room correction. I will read the threat that you have pointed me to.
Regarding your suggestion of replacing the USB connection by optical to prevent analog noise contamination riding along a digital signal in your microRendu, it appears that an important enhancement to decrease noise in the microRendu is to use a linear power supply to power it, instead of its original switching power supply.
There is an interesting post in audio science review (ASR) which shows how the performance of the microRendu improves significantly when you power it with a decent linear power supply.
This just reinforces what I was saying earlier with respect to streamers. With given bit-perfect output, which all streamers are capable of, and low jitter levels, if they even matter these days, the biggest difference unknown affecting streaming sound quality is electro-magnetic noise and interference. i.e. clean power and minimal noise transmission on cables. Isolating the heavy processing upstream via optical will provide incremental improvements, but the biggest improvement will come from a clean power supply. Linear power supplies are almost requisite in this regard. And if you are using USB then having a DAC that does not draw it's power over the USB 5V power bus will also help.
In my case, I found the most (cost) effective solution is to run the heavy processing Roon core upstream on the network, and then use the highly optimized and lightweight OpticalRendu to isolate the input from noise. With LPS's across the board of course. If you think that the optical isolation only provides marginal improvements then you could go with an Allo USBridge Signature or Digione Signature (SPDIF) as a network endpoint - superb value for those devices. Powered by the Allo Shanti LPS, which is also a very good value. Regardless, you are talking about roughly $1000 or so for a good network endpoint solution that will sound every bit as good (if not better) than a $10k streamer. I have done an A/B comparison of my opticalRendu + upstream Roon Core vs a Lumin streamer and the isolated optical endpoint solution sounded better. It's important to note that the Lumin was just being used as a streamer and I am not talking about their built-in DAC's, which are actually pretty good. But that's a separate conversation if one is looking for an all-in-one streamer/dac combo.
Can we list some LPS for the streamers. I am ready to buy ne today if I can get a list streamers to consider. Something for the microRendu would be ideal but for this thread any LPS.
On one end we have streaming services, Spotify,Todal, Qobuz and for simplification I’m counting Roon for this catefory as well. These service will take the individual tracks from their data location and apply some algorith that converts the original file for the appropriate quality needed for the streamer. Next thing is the streaming service itself, which basically cuts the track to datagrams, let’s say 5ms slices and wraps these to tcp protocol (seems to be protocol for atleast Spotify and Roon, don’t know if Tidal and Qobuz are using udp).
Now at this point there would be a steady flow of individual datagrams to the streamer. If any of the tcp packages would drop, the tcp stack in streamer software would just ask the ”server” Spotify, Roon to resend the package. As long as the datagrams are coming in fast enough network package loss shouldn’t affect the SG, but in a situation where the network delay is longer that the cache time of the streamer it’s forced to drop the datagram. Based on the error correction schema this might not be a problem, if for example 40ms of audio is distributed in 8 datagrams. Each datagram would overlap 5ms with the previous one, so loosing one would not affect the integrity of data. More robbust error correction means more bandwidth is needed, if I understood correctly typically these schemas would be applied dynamically.
Now the streamer has received enough datagrams to fulfull the cache to ”protect” the flow to the dac. On the streamer’s RJ45/Wifi receiver chip there is incoming flow of datagrams and at the same time as the same packets are pushed out through USB/spdif port using AES3 protocol. This most like the point where jitter and electrical noise would be interfiering the output signal of spdif for example. How the missing data in spdif flow would affect SG is not clear to me, maybe someone else could open this in more detail.
Now if I have roughly understood the whole flow correctly it’s quite easy to understand why one streamer - dac combination sounds better that other.
How about streaming content with a video source. I think they drop packets if there is a problem in the transmission. However, dropped packets are just part of the the streaming quality issue. Actually not a big deal for me and I do not think this a big deal for most people. I am more interested in the issue of electrical noise that people bring up as a cause of a lot of problems in the streaming chain.
A couple of posts above are saying that a Fibre optical cable is less of a benefit than an LPS on the streamer. Heck even ASR is saying that and they are only about measurements.
Maybe the differences I hear between my Pi/Digi+ SPDIF and M5 are related to the quality of the power supply used in the M5 vs the iFi switching power supply I use with the Pi; I don't know... Using a Pi with the Allo DigiOne Signature SPDIF board and a good quality linear power supply to feed the clean side of the output would be a great comparison with my M5 or any more expensive streamer.
I've read various posts here and on audiophile style about reported improvements by replacing the internal Lumin U1 Mini power supply with an external SBooster. The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel on YouTube has a lot of interesting videos/reviews about streamers and power supplies.
Once I recharge my audio funds I would like to try a linear power supply with the EtherREGEN. When I had the RME ADI 2 FS DAC I was shopping external linear power supplies and Teddy Pardo, Paul Hynes, SBooster, Uptone UltraCap, and Farad were all on my radar. I ended up selling the RME before I purchased one for comparison. RME's opinion on replacing their stock supply with an upgraded linear supply can be read here: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=28734 ; it's about what you would expect, similar to this thread...
The LPS-1.2 is a single output, 1.1-amp linear power supply intended for powering a wide range of audio and computer devices. Examples include: UpTone's own ISO REGEN, the Sonore microRendu and ultraRendu, SOtM streamers, small DACs and headphone amps, USB>S/PDIF converters, specialty computer USB cards, SSDs, fibre media converters, PS Audio LANRover, SqueezeBox Touch, etc.
I was about to get the EtherREGEN but held off. I want to do a bit more research on this one to see if it worthwhile sound wise. I also want to see if it is possible to output from the EtherREGEN to multiple DACs or streamers in my system. I will have a Rendu streamer into 1 USB DAC and an Ethernet stream input with another DAC. Both connected to my preamp at the same time.
Can we list some LPS for the streamers. I am ready to buy ne today if I can get a list streamers to consider. Something for the microRendu would be ideal but for this thread any LPS.
I lived with my microRendu powered with an ifi iPower (meh) for a while before trying a SGC LPS. I didn't feel the need to look any further.
@audio2design, my point was just that it’s unclear to me how data loss would affect SG. As if streamer misses one datagram containing 5ms of data, it could be a silent point in a track resulting only note playing longer, but it also could be something else which affects the SG more profaundly. This also comes down to how streamer and dac handle these errors. As there is no error correction (as far as I know) between streamer and dac over any connection, it’s impossible to request packet resend from dac point of view. Assuming that these devices are separate boxes. So any error generated before dac could surface in a different way in SG.
... it’s unclear to me how data loss would affect
SG ... could be something else which affects the SG ... So any error
generated before dac could surface in a different way in SG
What is "SG?" How would you know that it's been affected?
yyzsantabarbara1,914 postsI broke down and bought the UltraCap LPS 1.2 based on the comments here and the ASR links posted here. Let me see now if that was money well spent.
The LPS-1.2 is a single output, 1.1-amp linear power supply intended for powering a wide range of audio and computer devices. Examples include: UpTone's ownISO REGEN, the Sonore microRendu and ultraRendu, SOtM streamers, small DACs and headphone amps, USB>S/PDIF converters, specialty computer USB cards, SSDs, fibre media converters, PS Audio LANRover, SqueezeBox Touch, etc.
yes, please let us know if you notice an improvement in sound quality from your microRendu.
Sure, though it looks like February when they will ship to me. It is easy to tell improvements and deficiencies with my new system.
I was intrigued by the fact that ASR web site gave some measurements advocating a LPS for the microRendu. Seems like a lot of folks already knew that from the posts I read subsequently. I did not follow streaming too much after I had the microRendu working (and reliably) with my rig. I would have saved some money if I did not read this thread.
I was also looking into the EtherREGEN (again) from UpTone Audio but it seems controversial and it is also not idea for my situation where I hope in 2021 to have 2 killer DACs hooked to my preamp. I would be doing the EtherREGEN's B > A data flow and that is said to be sub-optimal. No need to speed money if I cannot use the best performance.
No this will not work for me because I have 2 (maybe 3 DACs) that will be hooked up at the same time. The microRendu will be hooked up to 1 and an RJ45 will be the input on the second DAC.
For my situation something like the Denafrips Giaa maybe better though I am not getting any of these things until I check out the stock streaming quality.
The 2 DACs I hope to get are the AudioByte Hydra stack, which has the new HUB piece with RJ45 streaming input (some amazing tech on this stack). The other DAC is the Halo May KTE which is supposed to have a great USB input. I will also have the Benchmark DAC3B back but likely on my headphone rig unless I like it best.
You just got a reply from John Swenson in Audiophile Style. The designer himself. I suggest you read that reply in full. Meaning not just the first paragraph
Don’t let anyone talk you into a $640 ethernet switch. If you need more ports just get a netgear or cisco. Actually you would be better off using a managed switch, setting up a VLAN and using port priority. You can get a managed switch under $100
ASR didn't "advocate " for a LPS you might want to read that thread a little closer. They said the microRendu worked as a roon endpoint but a better alternative was the SMS-200. They recommended using a LPS or a good SMPS .
Swenson has a lot of "theories" which he does not seem to back up with actual measurements of end devices to prove the effects he claims. I am not doubting the things the says, I am doubting his claims of how the impact what comes out.
That starts with simple things, like leakage current, which he claims is a big issue at 50/60Hz, but then claims it is hard to measure because it is small. Well no, it is not hard at all. It is easily measured and characterized. He claims it is the primary noise source if you have a great system. If you have a great system and turn the volume up, do you hear 50/60Hz hum? No? So where is this? Not to mention that differential connections eliminate pretty much eliminate this source of noise. Also note that in single ended connections this is predominantly a noise current on the ground wire, and since the current is low and the resistance low, the developed noise voltage is small.
Then lets get into his argument for clock jitter, i.e. in an Ethernet output creating an audio frequency noise spectrum in the end equipment and justifies this with talk about ground plane noise. That is all fine and good, except good power supply decoupling, which is what competent designers do, will predominantly confine that ground noise to a section of the PCB, and a competent designer will also use good layout practices, such that ground noise from the digital circuit does not impact the analog audio.
Of course, it is easy when you make claims but don't back them up with measurements (which Swenson claimed he would provide) and make baseless claims that most engineers don't know about these things and don't account for them in their designs. All his claims are super simple to prove, so why does he not have a whole suite of measurements showing the improvement with readily available off the shelf equipment?
Oh, I love this that he wrote, "Galvanic isolators—be they transformers or any form of capacitive or optical digital logic isolator—still pass AC (alternating current). " That is simply crap. Optical digital logic isolators do not pass AC. They only pass AC, IF and ONLY IF they include a power supply for the opposite end of the circuit (most do not). The capacitive coupling on most optically based isolators is near nil unless they have a built in isolated supply.
A better power supply is going to do far more to reduce noise in the digital (or analog) domain than any of these products. End Rant.
Seems to me there's a lot of expensive gadgets to fix problems that don't exist in most people's systems. If you have ground problems or excessive audible noise there's better ways of dealing with it.
One issue Swenson claims is an issue is literally just that, typical analog ground noise. The other would be internal system ground noise, which is real, but readily dealt with.
He throws around his chip design experience quite readily, but that does not make you a system level expert, and certainly has not provided him with the tools to clearly illustrate his claims matter, or he does, and chooses not to publish said results.
Of course he didn't think twice to link to a "review" where someone was taking pictures of a TV screen and claiming big differences between cables and power supplies, even though it was quite obvious to any amateur photographer that there were significant variations in image brightness resulting in saturation in some images, and differences in shadow detail in others, and then there was out of focus blurriness in others, though given the TV and camera sitting on a tripod method, vibration could have caused blurriness as well.
There are major differences between streamers that can be heard. Each streamer when connected to a dac puts out varying amounts of jitter and electrical noise/interference which can generated by the streamer and or nearby electrical components, wifi, etc. The differences between my old bluesound node 2i, my aurender streamer and my cd transport can be heard very easily. It is not just ones and zeros like many claim. There are real world differences. I would have taken my aurender back during my 30 day trial if it did not sound significantly better than my bluesound node 2i to my ears.
A LPS seems to be a popular choice for he Rendu’s, especially over the stock PS. I have now bought it and will give it a go. Unfortunately, they are out of supply until February. Once reason that I am doing this today and not it in the past, is that today my system will allow me to hear the improvements, if any exist.
Here is some very useful info from UpTone Audio on using the UltraCap LPS 1.2 with a microRendu.
Thank you you for your interest in our groundbreaking UltraCap LPS-1.2 linear power supply.
Yes, it absolutely works with the Sonore microRendu (also designed by my partner John Swenson). Just set the LPS-1.2 to 7 volts.
There is a special situation unique to the LPS-1.2/microRendu combination:
The Sonore microRendu is the only component we know of that is not tolerant of the final 10 millisecond ramp time of the UltraCap LPS-1.2’s LT3045 output regulators. When the LPS-1.2 boots to green and turns on its output, there is that very short ramp (it does not go from zero volts to 7V instantly).The microRendu will not boot properly if it gets its power following the ramp.
All you need to do is to power on the LPS-1.2, wait until it gets to green, and then connect the DC output cable to the microRendu (does not matter which end was disconnected, whichever is more convenient for you).
This issue does not exist with the ultraRendu, nor with the original LPS-1. It is only the microRendu/LPS-1.2 combo. Minor inconvenience. We recommend you leave the UltraCap LPS-1.2 and microRendu on 24/7 anyway.
This bug is not an issue for me.
Getting a EtherREGEN is a question for the future when I buy my next DACs. If anyone is interested here is the EtherREGEN’s designers comment to my use case.
Unexpected result I ran into - I'm running what I'd call a modest system, all separates, about 10k maybe if bought when brand new. I picked up a Node 2 because I'd never had a dedicated streamer except for my laptop/Audrivana setup. I thought the Node 2 sounded better (and it freed up my laptop duties), so I wondered if the Node 2i would be even better. Turns out IMO that the Node 2 separated the instruments/vocals better and was more dynamic than the 2i. I have an Ares II so I didn't use the inboard Node DACs at all, but I was semi-surprised that the 2 sounded better than the 2i, even though I'd seen a few reports of the two streamer portions being pretty much the same and not worth the upgrade, as long as you keep the software up to date. I was expecting that the Node 2i might have an edge over the 2 or at least that they would sound pretty much the same on my system, so I ended up getting rid of the 2i. I have no experience with more expensive streamers, so I think I would upgrade all of my other pieces before I updated my streamer.
Not played with the Node2, but have with the 2i, and thought it had a problem till I found out about the Audio Clock Trim setting which you would think would make things better, but made things worse with an external DAC. Never bothered to hook up equipment and see what exactly it was doing. One day I guess.
One reason why I have not yet decided on a streamer/DAC combination to get is Roon compatibility. Many of the newest high performing and reasonably priced models such as the Minidsp SHD, Matrix Audio Mini-i 3 Pro, Arcam ST60, etc., have not received Roon certification yet and cannot be used as Roon endpoints until they do so. After reading several posts, I have decided to buy a Chromecast Audio (CA), which although discontinued, it can be still be found in e-bay for a whopping $50. According to numerous sites (e.g. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-chromecast-audio-digital-output.4544/), if connected via optical to a "decent" high performing DAC (e.g. Topping D50), it will outperform many higher-priced streamers and it will be hard to beat, at least from the performance measuring perspective.
I have not tried Roon yet and I figured that the CA will allow me to do so without incurring into too much hassle/expense. It may even become the permanent Roon endpoint solution, once I settle on a DAC and preamp to buy. For the moment I will use the DAC in my Marantz AV 8805, which I know is not optimal.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
