Point of higher priced streamer?

@jaulbrich The streamer is just conveying the digital content. A CD transport can vary based on its ability to correctly read a CD and manage errors. The streamer is just taking the ones and zeros from the source (e.g. Tidal) and passing those data, verbatim one hopes, to the DAC. Are there errors to make up for? I don’t know, but I should hope there would be error correction that doesn’t rely on the streamer. This is computer data. Qualitative changes can happen in the DAC, sure. But not before, I’d think. But maybe I misunderstand how this works?

Except those are not minor changes. They are significant changes in the digital reconstruction filters that have direct impacts on the output. They are intentional modifications of the signal.

There was a time when people doubted that minor firmware changes in DACS could result in clear changes in audible performance. Ted knows why. I heard those audible differences before I ever heard him explain it.

@rhg88 This streamer thread has diverged to room correction. However, I am in total agreement with you on the room correct issue. I have an acoustically treated room and my software based room Digital Room Correction is very important piece in my system equation. I have perfect sound now in a really tiny crappy room with big speakers.

That altered digital stream of DRC bits from my ROON Server is sent via my streamer, a microRendu, to the USB input of my DAC. I think the content inside that stream is way more important than how it gets to my DAC. Why do I say that? Well, I just go into my ROON Server and toggle the switch to add DRC to the stream. When DRC is turned on the sound is glorious when it is turned off the room dominates with problems. The quality of my stream (subject of this thread) is a much lower concern until my room was dealt with.

BTW - I actually do not need to use the physical room acoustic treatments with the software DRC I am using. I kept them because I already had them in place before I did the software based DRC. My DRC runs on ROON Server.

More info on what I did is here.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/room-correction-roon-rew-room-eq-wizard?highlight=Room%2BCorr...

it is our own fault and weakness when we give the trolls what they seek -- our energy and our response to their prodding...

PSAudio’s digital guru, Ted Smith, has some interesting thoughts on digital theory versus actual practice and listening experience. He posts frequently on their forums. No one is perfect, but he seems to have the knowledge, experience and practical expertise to explain many phenomena and the humility to shrug his shoulders about others. I hear what I hear and I am merely fascinated by what we discover as we learn more. There was a time when people doubted that minor firmware changes in DACS could result in clear changes in audible performance. Ted knows why. I heard those audible differences before I ever heard him explain it. My ears are my ultimate authority for what I purchase. I respect the scientific expertise necessary to build those products. I do not need to fully understand the science to enjoy the results. Nor am I troubled by those who doubt what I hear. All streamers are not created equal. That is what my ears tell me. If they all sound the same to someone else, I say, “Be Well and Prosper.”

Uhm, no hoop. I asked you to explain your position. You have and now I am going to go enjoy my fancy streamer. ;-)

Because it is not just a nice idea in theory, it is factual in practice. With asynchronous USB, there is absolutely no timing data incorporated in the data stream. None, zip, nada, 0.  It is not a matter of resolving arrival timing errors .... there are none to resolve. This statement shows gross ignorance about how the stuff he is supposed to be an expert on actually works.

Then comes the argument that the DAC will resolve all data arrival-timing errors by first buffering them and then re-clocking them before sending them onto the decoder chip. That’s a nice idea in theory but experience tells us otherwise.

You asked for one. I jumped through your hoop.  There are more errors in this document. But this is so gross an error to make all others pointless to point out.

LOL @arafiq 

One thing is guaranteed: he WILL be resurrected again if banned. And again, and again...

No matter what, it will be easy to spot when he does.

I have a few new monickers for audio design that will come in handy when he is banned and wants to pop up again ...

navel-gazer-123
i-am-legend-007
Hydra-09

You can thank me later. 

So really a windows laptop as the source running to a dac should sound no different than a streamer as the source running to the same dac.

Is that correct? 

I used a rice streamer today. Works great; rich, full-bodied flavor without a hint of harshness. And a bargain at 17.99.

his article was written in 2014, long after asynchronous USB was dominant for DACs and jitter on USB became meaningless, not to mention bit errors are extremely low.

https://darko.audio/2014/12/global-feedback-can-ethernet-cables-make-a-difference/

This statement is a beaut ...

Then comes the argument that the DAC will resolve all data arrival-timing errors by first buffering them and then re-clocking them before sending them onto the decoder chip. That’s a nice idea in theory but experience tells us otherwise.

I have a hard time finding even one blind Darko test which calls into question everything he says.


Please explain why this article demonstrates “technical illiteracy”. And I don’t understand the last sentence in your post. Humor me and clarify, please.

Dissonance? LOL!! Explain one thing, one single thing: why do you have to come back here in Audiogon over and over with different usernames? 

This article was written in 2014, long after asynchronous USB was dominant for DACs and jitter on USB became meaningless, not to mention bit errors are extremely low.

https://darko.audio/2014/12/global-feedback-can-ethernet-cables-make-a-difference/

This statement is a beaut ...

Then comes the argument that the DAC will resolve all data arrival-timing errors by first buffering them and then re-clocking them before sending them onto the decoder chip. That’s a nice idea in theory but experience tells us otherwise.

I have a hard time finding even one blind Darko test which calls into question everything he says.

LOL!! Again, no answer. Just stupid attacks that either a child, or a mentally sick person, would do. You try to find some happiness in your miserable life. Over 500 posts in less than two months you joined with this fake account. Over 10,000 posts is one year once you add the other banned usernames. And THAT my friend is a miserable life.

If someone calls someone “technically illiterate” a person would be well within their rights to ask that you provide a quoted or video captured example that somehow proves or supports the claim of illiteracy. If that proof is not provided, I discount the assertion. Is that not the scientific way? Is that not how we would all want to be treated? Just one link to an example of what you call Mr. Darko’s technical illiteracy. Should only take a minute. Please. Expose him with evidence. 

You never answer any questions, do you? Like again, who are you? We hear about your ego-boner credentials, but again people with such “credentials” wouldn’t normally post non-stop in Audiogon, even after being banned at least four times I know of. Over and over with yet again new usernames. How many email addresses did you have to create for that purpose?

And you never said what you actually own. I asked you that many times, never answered. Not even a word, not even which speakers. Now... prove it that you are not those people, and list your equipment.

You seem to always only tell people NOT to own, never seem to “teach” what to actually own. 

Gone, there is an assumption in you suggestion that if measurements are the same the sound will be the same.  I think it has been pretty well established that hardware with the same specs will usually still sound different.  In fact, sometimes equipment with really good measurements has poor sound.  I have both a hi-end streamer and Bluesound.  In doing an A/B comparison, the Moon steamer produces better sound.

Still smiling and laughing thyname, I've positively influenced your music, all Darko has done is influence the lightness of your pocketbook and made you envious.

I don't have to know Mr Darko personally to know that the claims he makes and the things he says are factually wrong and that they reveal that he is technically illiterate on many of the things he claims to be somewhat of an expert on.

I think if you read my post I tend to be a little more balanced than many. I have spent most of my life working to ensure that people subjectively prefer the audio that I have been involved in. I'm not just speaking from a standpoint of uninformed belief I've been involved at an academic practical and research level on audio most of my life.  I've spent a lot of time trying to understand what people prefer subjectively.  I also have very healthy technical skepticism that skepticism was not formed purely by my technical knowledge but by practical tests far too often usually with someone ending up surprised that they were fooled by no one else but themselves.
Just remember that so many of these claims never survive controlled testing and the only measurement that's used is someone's ears and brain. It's not measurement and technology that tells me these things don't make a difference it's actual listening experience not just mine but of the many people I've put through it. Hey even I have convinced myself of a difference only to have a colleague make me look stupid.

Hey AtDavid, or whatever you call yourself now, Audio2Design: As I said, your Ego-Boner meter is off the charts.

Darko is a real person, with real name, and face, for all to see. Question is: who are you? Other than a pathetic lonely low life import from troll factory, constantly posting under numerous fake usernames in Audiogon, I fail to see your credentials. I might as well proclaim I am the Pope here. It wouldn’t be better than who you say you are. Isn’t it time for the cat to come out?

@audio2design,

No insult intended. Just offering some wisdom that was not my own. Twain was warning people to be wary of certitude. Ignorance, which plagues me and the rest of the world, is not nearly as dangerous as being certain about something that turns out to be untrue. Scientists are just as vulnerable to this trap as “flat earthers.” Many scientific discoveries remained elusive because some scientists claimed those discoveries were “impossible.” The more someone is certain they are right, the more skeptical I become of his/her position. But that’s just me. Similarly, I am skeptical of people casting aspersions on other people’s character when they don’t personally know the person they’re disparaging. Do you know Mr. Darko? Maybe you don’t know whether he’s “technically illiterate.” Are you certain?

I would insult you back @Thyname, but you seem like a sad, lonely person, and since this is the holidays, I figure you have enough to deal with already.

I already pointed to one thing, I was on the committee for the original AES67 (2013), something that John Darko will not and could not be part of. I don't blog, I publish peer reviewed papers, and odds are, you have listened to music that was made better because I was involved some aspect of making the equipment perform to its best, studio equipment I have developed, plug ins, or helping the odd artist get just the sound he wanted.  I don't need your approval, but it makes me smile to know I influenced the one thing in life that brings you happiness, music, while John Darko, realistically, has just made you chase meaningless impossible fantasies while lining his pockets while providing you no additional joy.  And yet it is me you insult.  That makes me smile .... and laugh.

Pretty much always, but room correction generally only corrects total energy, and some timing with good bass management, but cannot account for things like strong reflections, non symmetry, etc.   It's best to use acoustic treatments and placement of speaker and listeners to start, and use room treatment to tweak.

Wouldn’t room correction play perhaps a more important role than increasing a few dbs in SINAD beyond a certain level?

Not sure you were trying to insult me here, but when Mark Twain wrote this, he was not talking about people like me, but about people convinced about things like the the earth being flat, or the virus is a hoax, or that fuses make a dramatic difference in sound, or that masks can't provide any protection, or power cables need burn in.  He was not talking about people who actually know what they are talking about, he was talking about people, absent any real knowledge on a topic, convincing themselves of the superiority of their views. Not their knowledge, their views.

vhiner535 posts12-27-2020 11:03am@audio2design:

“It ain’t what you don’t know that’ll hurt you, it’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain

I’ve been reading this post with great interest since I’m in the market for a streamer/dac combination. One issue that was not mentioned at all in this discussion was room correction. I’ve read and have verified in my own system that room correction can play a major role in enhancing the overall quality of the sound produced by the system. I have only found a handful of streamer/dac systems that can perform room correction on their own. One example is the minidsp shd. Wouldn’t room correction play perhaps a more important role than increasing a few dbs in SINAD beyond a certain level?

@audio2design:

“It ain’t what you don’t know that’ll hurt you, it’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain

Audio2Design

John Darko wise? ..... Okay. Embarrassing? Yes. Technically illiterate? Yes. Prone to delusion? Probably. Makes things up? Definitely._———

———-
Wow. Ego-boner meter is off charts.

Please point me to your own site, or blog. I will be glad to visit. Although I am pretty sure it does not exist, other than from the bots at the Troll Factory in St.Petersburg 

lemonhaze94 posts12-27-2020 9:40am@ironlung, you are fighting an uphill battle trying to reason with audio2design and his ilk, but full marks for effort.

You mean knowledgeable and not susceptible to flowery but technically in context meaningless words.

I made a typo in the following:
9.  Tidal Master => PS Audio DSD DAC (via bridge)

I'd like to share my experience with different streamers and it's just my personal experience.  I think everything starts with the source of the signal.  If the signal quality of the music that you're streaming is more than the streamer or DAC can process than it's unlikely you'll experience the differences.  I went through the following set up and I'll rank them in ascending order in term of audible quality personally.  
1. Pendora => Oppo => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via coax) 
2. Tidal hifi =>  Oppo => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via coax)
3. Tidal hifi => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via bridge)
4. CD =>  Oppo => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via coax)
5. Tidal Master =>  Oppo => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via coax)
6. CD => PS DSD Transport => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via coax)
7.  Tidal Master => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via bridge)
8. CD => PS DSD Transport => PS Audio DSD DAC (via coax)
9. Tidal Master => PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (via bridge)

My elementary understanding from reading is that the entire chain of signal from your source of music to the speakers needs to be as lossless as possible.  The sampling rate  (khz) and the signal package size (bits) needs to be delivered to the DAC as clean and without any truncation as much as possible.  For example, some of the songs from TIDAL master is up to 24bits but if my DAC can only process 16bit then theoretically, there's some resolution loss along the path.  Same with streamer, if the package arrived to the streamer via the internet at 32 bits package and the streamer can only process 16bits.  This is where up-sampling comes to place to extract as much information as possible in some DACs.  This is also why CD signals at 16 bits are the best that you can extract from any transport and why SACD or DSD are capable of more details and quality.  If you are feeding a top of the line DAC that is capable processing 32 bit of information like the Lumin X1 streamer with source from 16 bits music or even lower, you're limited by the neither the DAC or streamer but the source.  On the other hand, if you're streaming DSD content to a streamer that is capable of only 16 bits processing or your DAC can only process 16 bit signal then that's the best you're probably get.  The rule of garbage in = garbage out is applicable in every step of the food chain from the source => streamer => DAC => Pre-amp => Amp => Speaker.

@ironlung, you are fighting an uphill battle trying to reason with audio2design and his ilk, but full marks for effort.

@vhiner, good post and I fully agree

Interesting Audio b 2 design as a dealer wjo routinely purchases and tests these producrscts we many times agree with mr  darko who is a very respected reviewer

We have a lot of experrience this area we sell or have sold most of the major streaming brands and rhere are very audible differences betwen these devices

We started with pcs running j river tried modified Mac minis an sotm server eith a custom linearbpowet supply 
quesonix, a Lauder technik memory player, auralic, innous zenith and statement a baetis reference now 432Evo master aeon and standard lumin and bluesound

Every device affected the sound

Dave and troy
Audio intellect Nj
Streaming specalists

Streamers seem to sound different but that doesn't mean that you need to spend a fortune.  To my ears, both the Raspberry Pi and Nvidia Shield sound a lot better than USB out of either a PC or Mac and, by a smaller margin, better than SPDIF out of a Squeezebox Touch.

agree, and those who have not heard a multitude. don’t know...much
order the box, listen....repeat...
or stop when happy 

A very wise man named John Darko is fond of saying, “If you haven’t heard it, you really don’t know.” If you accept that truism, you can discount about half of what you read on audio forums. Listening to people rant about things they’ve never actually experienced themselves really is the definition of a fool’s errand.

Now, if you buy the idea that ONLY people who have actually heard the audio equipment in question can possibly know what they’re talking about, then you’re faced with the following questions: Are these people are telling the truth about what they have experienced? Or are they merely trying to sell you something? It’s pretty hard to answer those questions definitively.

So,  if you can’t bring yourself to trust any humans, regardless of track record, you might think you can trust “scientific fact.” IF you think that scientific data, by itself, will help you definitively answer the question “What does this equipment sound like?” Then you will be forever disappointed and unhappy. Find another hobby.

The ultimate solution is to put your big boy (or girl) pants on, quit trying to cheat the scientific method, and pay the nominal shipping fees for an in-home audition so that you can hear the product in question with your own ears.

If it makes you smile and want to kiss strangers, the product bloody well works! If you can’t tell whether it works, return the product and consider it a lesson learned. And if you can’t even trust your own ears, audio will drive you and those around you crazy. Do everyone a favor and, for the love of God, find another hobby!

In conclusion, listening to music produced by great audio equipment should make you wildly happy. If it does that, whatever gear you’re using IS FANTASTIC. If your music playback doesn’t regularly thrill you, the whole endeavor is pointless....no matter what anyone says and no matter what the measurements reveal.

The joy of music is all that matters and anyone who claims to know what that’s worth for anyone else, isn’t having nearly enough fun.

But, hey, that’s just, like, my opinion, man!

The point of a high end streamer is simple: Power supply, parts quality and build quality. This simple formula can be applied to all things in audio. In general, these 3 simple things equal improved sound quality. How much of an improvement is relative. The only way to tell is to purchase a few units under the retailers exchange policy and audition them and judge for yourself. Of course the retailer will not like you if you create open box merchandise but active listening in your environment is the only way to tell. Since you are streaming from an iPad, any airplay device will work fine. The most cost effective is a used last generation airport express using a special optical cable with a 3.5mm connection on 1 end. This output is supposed to be bit perfect to 44.1 and it supports gapless playback. With the optical connection the sound will be good. If memory serves me, Stereophile had the APE in its list of recommended components. The drawback with airplay and the APE express is that you are limited to 44.1 . If you want to do Hi Rez streaming then you would need to look into a better streamer. I used the APE for years on 2 systems with excellent and reliable results: I did upgrade both units with Marantz & Pioneer Elite streamers & there was improved performance with Airplay and they both support Hi rez. If you can hardwire to avoid wi-fi, you will get even better sound.

This has been enlightening. I am software guy but new to audio. Have learnt a lot on this thread and special thanks to @nquery for great explanation and which makes complete sense to me. 

mgrif104

Thank you for your streamer journey.  Many of us do not have the ability to compare audio products in the real world because of a lack of available local sources.  Hearing from someone such as yourself, and not a professional reviewer, carries more weight with me.  I enjoyed reading your response.

You mean like when someone makes a statement like this arafiq, using fancy sounding terms like "computational theory" which is totally meaningless within the framework of delivering a bit perfect data stream? .


It sounds impressive if you want to reinforce a bias.

I'd suggest delving a bit more into computational theory and architecture before making this claim. I.E., "the network is the computer" and processes within the computer are analogous to/similar to the OSI layer system used to deploy WANs/LANs.

Of course when you then start going on about transcoding which is a cmpletely different discussion from bit perfect delivery ..... We already recognize more likely and mundane issues such as O/S transcoding for data rates which need to be addressed with the right software choices to ensure bit perfect delivery of the uncompressed audio data file to the DAC, which for all the flowery words presented is still child's play.

Yeah... our friend audio2design has big ego-boner. But we already knew that since he was posting under those now banned handles, AtDavid, Dannad, Roberttdid, and more

When someone starts questioning others’ credentials, and worse, starts throwing theirs around, it usually means they can’t win the argument on substance alone.

Ironlung,

You seem to think that your MCSE level or similar networking experience renders other people not knowledgeable however, your posts are nothing but deflections of the fact that bit perfect non transcoded delivery is child's play if what is desired.

I think my M.A.Sc. (EE) and a few years of PhD before I decided I liked making money, not to mention sitting on the original AES67 technical committee gives me the skills and background to understand the issues quite well though I would rather pull off my finger nails than sit on a committee like that again.

My more concise opinion is that

a) yes streamers can sound different but it’s only because they do a better/worse job of jitter and/or noise reduction. If they are intentionally coloring/modifying or unintentionally maligning the day itself then they are should be excluded from all consideration. (Amarra software used to monkey with the source data that some seemed to like).

b) and thus more directly to the OP’s question - there are much more effective and cheaper ways to deal with these issues than trying to do it all in a single highly overpriced box, which generally don’t do it very well anyways. And gain a lot of flexibility to boot.

If something is in the Internets, it must be true 🙄

Yes, very hard to tell apples from oranges.

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test.html

@thyname  Better yet, a 100 grams of apples and 100 grams of blueberries both have the same amount of carbs (12g) - hence they "measure" the same.  Should they taste the same? ;-)  As Nelson Pass likes to say..."we just aren't measuring the right things."