Pimping your router

Sorry, I had understood that you connect the Lumin to the Actiontec  via ethernet rather than directly to the router. In that case a direct ethernet link to the router would be preferable.

Placed my router onto a Vibration Platform for microscope 

Got a faster & sharper pic on my iMac ...

I did check with Lumin who confirmed that the Ethernet connection has galvanic isolation.

That equally applies to my Innuos Zenith Mk3. Nevertheless inserting the EMO isolator with a short Meicord Opal made a significant improvement. Not obvious, I agree...

Guys

With digital signals, they Work or Don't Work. You are streaming audio at 25khz? I stream HDTV at 30mhz. No need for exotic cables, just decent quality.

ehometech Phoenix

@timinphoenix,

your basic hypothesis is wrong. Yes, digital signals travel in mHz. The problem, though is that along the way they pick up RMI/EFI as well as ground level noise, and: no, Dacs don‘t fully filter them out. The result is distortion in the conversion to analogue that unfortunately is quite audible. Hence better cables and additional filters are useful and audibly so.

Yes, you have it right. ER = EtherREGEN by Uptone Audio. Excellent product.

A little addendum to the original post:

In the meantime I have added a WA Quantum Tuning Chip to the incoming ISP and outgoing Ethernet cables directly at the router. Further improvement in dimensionality, location and attack as well as clarity of bass.
There are many things we don‘t yet understand about digital transmission is my take....

A further addition at the risk of looking compulsive: move your router to a different power spur from your main system and give it proper power treatment: i.e. filter, better power supply and cable, better fuse. It never ceases to amaze me how substantially additional efforts at noise suppression pay in the digital part of my system.

Earlier I asked about my Fios Quantum and Fios extender setup. My Lumin d1 is Ethernet connected but the Sony A9G,  Cambridge CXU, Yamaha RX-A2080 and Apple TV are wireless. Should I go Ethernet to the Sony A9G or take the advise and purchase a Acoustic Revive RLT-1 filter? The extender on has 2 Ethernet ports.

I am not sure I understand the question: generally ethernet connection tends to be preferable to wifi in most instances albeit with exceptions. The Acoustic Revive filter is mainly beneficial to ethernet connections.

The Fios extender is where all of the items I listed and was wondering if introducing a Ethernet switch and hard wire all components; would that be worth wild? My next question is buying a ifi ipower for the Fios wireless router upstairs is worth the investment? The big question here is: does a switching power supply induce noise onto the Ethernet signal?

thanks again for and and all replies as this is kinda specific to a Fios Moca network.

As far as improving the router power supply: in my case it helped quite a bit. As far as as the FIOS is concerned: wifi network extenders as they typically use the power lines tend to be noise collectors and as such are not good for audio purposes. If you have a way to go back to the router via ethernet using a switch, that is likely to be quite beneficial.

In my case, the extender has a wall wart power supply. Silly question but is their a way to get notifications regarding responses to the forum? I didn’t see anything and thanks for your response!

@brenn,

the way I check is by using the Browse tab selecting ‘relating to you‘.

There may be better ways.

Sounds like your extender works gets its signal via wifi rather than power lines. I have good experience with a cheap Chinese linear Ps

Much appreciated!

@brenn 
@antigrunge2 

To get notifications, just click the green "follow this discussion" button on the top right of the thread.

Thanks pokey77

Actually that button is on the very bottom of the thread that I just minutes ago. All good stuff folks!

Weird, it shows up on a different part of your screen. Glad you found it.

Reading some of these posts..  you would think the Ethernet data makes it to its destination only by luck…
Yet we know that the data all makes it intact and bit perfect thanks to various levels of hardware and software self checking and CRC. Yet somehow the 1’s and 0’s are going to sound better via some magic cables or whatnot. Yet critical data using “non-audiophile” methods launching missies, banking, etc… all continue working just fine..  
Makes you wonder why those same  1’s and 0’s all intact and verified will sound better via extraneous methods and mediums.. 
What a fun hobby..

@mikem,

the issue isn‘t the integrity of data packets nor their sequencing: it is the extraneous RFI/EMI and ground level grunge travelling alongside the data and having a nefarious impact on the re-conversion in the analogue domain. And: no, the noise rejection built into digital interfaces does not manage to reject that noise incursion fully. Hence all the rigmarole.
Enjoy the music

“Makes you wonder why those same 1’s and 0’s all intact and verified will sound better via extraneous methods and mediums..”

@mikem

It’s not so much about those 1’s and 0’s. In simple terms, it’s the reduction or elimination of ‘noise’ before the signal arrives in your DAC for analog conversion. As you know by lowering noise we get better resolution and dynamics. Your system is too good to be using a MacBook as a source to stream music. Try a decent dedicated streamer or server along with some of the suggestions outlined here and you are very likely to appreciate the bump in SQ.

Here is my digital streaming setup,
Apple router ➡️ Network Acoustics LAN Ag ➡️ ENO Ag Filter ➡️ Streamer ➡️ Network Acoustics USB III ➡️ DAC.

Everything matters and you already know that :-)

Good luck and enjoy music!

@lalitk 
Thanks for the response. That’s the typical answer I get every time yet with no real answer. If the ones and zeros are making it there in tact, then why can’t a simple filter be added in front of whatever to reduce any noise ? Why not use a balanced circuit and let CMR take care of it ? Why can’t  these 1’s and 0’s be read by something in front of the device and then put back without the noise if there is any actual noise that is detrimental ? Enjoy the music !  That’s what matters..

mikem165 posts05-11-2021 11:13am@lalitk 
Thanks for the response. That’s the typical answer I get every time yet with no real answer.

No real answer? You got a real answer multiple times by multiple members.

It sounds to me you don't like the answer. It is easy to dismiss something as "not real" if you don't like it. It also sounds to me your mind is already set in this stuff. Ultimately, the proof is the pudding, which in this case means trying for yourself. Of course, if you have any curiosity of doing so, and willing to experiment. Or you can continue to spend your time in the forums arguing about it. It won't get you anywhere

@antigrunge2 -- thank you for sharing your experiences. Very informative and educational. I have a couple of questions for you ...

1. You mention that adding a separate power supply for the router yields considerable benefits. What are the sonic benefits one might expect in this case? I'm using the Google Wifi Nest mesh system (one router and three points spread throughout the house). Both my streamers are connected to the router via ethernet though. What is a good power supply that is compatible with the Nest router that you would recommend?

2. What are you thoughts on getting an audiophile-grade network switch? I have a D-Link switch placed between the router and streamers. It's one of those cheap ones that I picked up for $20. I have been contemplating trying out either an English Electric 8Switch or EtherRegen. Just wondering what's your take on this.

TIA 

@mikem

How are you going to add a balanced circuit or a simple filter as you say to your existing signal chain? Perhaps you missed my point of isolating noise? Your laptop for instance is passing 1’s and 0’s along with the ‘noise’ via USB to your DAC. You should be asking yourself, how can I isolate this noise?

If you don’t believe or think consumer grade laptops are inherently noisy then this discussion is pretty much a moot point. Your laptop may sound fine to you and that’s quite okay. Can the sound be improved, sure if you care enough and open to exploring the possibilities. How about a simple test by inserting a USB purifier and see if you hear any audible difference in SQ.
https://www.amazon.com/iPurifier3-Audio-Signal-Filter-White/dp/B07DLMZP5Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3CO2XRJP3Q...

The ENO filter in my scenario is filtering the noise from ethernet router and passing the 1’0 and 0’s to my streamer. It has made a profound audible difference in my signal chain and to my ears.

@arafiq,

unfortunately I am not familiar with your router. Assuming it‘s 5 or 12V DC though, you have a wide choice of LPSs. I have best experience with Kingrex but have also used $100 LPS on Alibaba with good results. The effect is best described as lower noise floor, less harshness in the treble and overall more air around individual instruments in a wider sound stage.

As to the switch: my experience has been that I got better results from the EMO filter than a standard switch. I cannot comment on ENO or Etherregen from personal experience. The Etherregen with its optical and 10m inputs sure looks intriguing, though

@lalitk
Why don’t they use ENO type filters in the DAC ? that’s my point.
We know the data is there intact.. why isn’t it cleaned up by the DAC? Do the DAC manufacturers not see it as a problem ?  I’ve used other means besides USB. Coax, toslink..  I found the unison USB on the Yggdrasil to sound the best.
I know laptops are noisy, etc..

@mikem

In a perfect world, your DAC should come installed with ENO type filter. Or your Internet provider should pre-install a noise filter in the junction box. Better yet, let’s ask your electric company to provide ultra-clean power to your house.

I can go on but I think you get the gist of what I’m trying to convey, right?

Main problem I have with my router is the bits keep getting stuck.

@mikem 

Ideally a DAC would take care of ALL external negative "influences" presented by the peripherals (i.e. switches, routers, etc.). The reality is quite different, and while the DAC manufacturers have taken tremendous steps towards isolation, there is still work to be done. 

Keep in mind,  much of perceived digital audio performance is dependent upon the quality of the clock signal entering the DAC chip and the presence of jitter.  Jitter causes distortions in the audio signal coming out of the DAC.

John Swenson has done quite a bit of work on this, and identified two kinds of external influences that can cause noise on a DAC's internal ground-plane: 1) jitter carried through digital data, and 2) leakage current (i.e. from power supplies of the various networking devices, router, switch, in your network).

Leakage current can flow through power cables, audio interconnects, digital cables, including Ethernet and USB cables. The leakage will flow from a power supply, through a cable to another device or component, then through that device or component’s respective power supply back to the AC mains.

Alternatively it can flow through a cable to another box and then through a safety ground (the “third pin” of an AC plug) and return back to the AC mains.

In fact, there are two types of leakage current, traditional low-source-impedance leakage, which is found in all power supplies, and high-source-impedance leakage, which only occurs in SMPSs. This high-source-impedance leakage is hard to block and can take surprising paths to get where it wants to go.

These two different forms of leakage currents have a deleterious effect on Ethernet in audio systems. All copper Ethernet connections have transformers in each device port, and these transformers will block DC and low-source-impedance leakage. However, they DO NOT block high-source-impedance AC leakage. This is particularly important for digital networks used for audio. Most all network systems used with audio use switching supplies (SMPS) to power the digital devices, routers, switches, computers, etc. The high-source-impedance leakage current from the SMPS will travel through the network equipment, the Ethernet cables, the end-points, and into the DAC where they will create noise on the ground-plane, and thus jitter in the DAC circuitry

I recently added an ENO Ag (fed by Monoprice CAT8) in front of my Roon Nucleus, that was already being powered by an HDPlex 300 LPS, which was also feeding 5v power to my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC with Unison USB, via a USB Disruptor.  It made a clear improvement.

So did replacing my 2013 MacBook Pro running Roon with the Nucleus, adding the LPS to the Nucleus, and adding the 5v LPS to the USB Disruptor (in decreasing order of effect size).  In all cases, the effect was a lowering of a noise floor that I thought was already non-existent, or at least below what I could hear before the change was made.  Low level information that was previously not there, became easily apparent.  The decay of a note, the decay of a room, the shuffle of a foot on the floor, the squeak of a chair.  Details and more details.  And guess what?  More of these details all add up to realism, and that's what I am aiming for.  I want a time machine that takes me back to the instant of the musicians playing the take on the recording.

So, to me, with no need to do double-blind testing, the effects are real.  Heck, even if they are pure placebo, I don't care, as long as I hear them.  And I do.  So that begs the next question, why did those changes make that improvement?  Some might want to know because they want to understand the world.  I just want to know "why", so I can make more such improvements, to make my time machine better.

So "improvements" might have to do with lowering some property of the electrical noise floor.  I don't know.  Show me some data. But I do know they make the music better.  The why is a mystery at this point.  One thing that I do wonder about: in every waveform analysis that I have seen (have not seen that many though), the digital 1's and 0's are far from perfect.  Overshooting, ringing, not perfectly vertical or horizontal waveforms.  So they are really an analog representation of a digital signal.  I know they work fine to deliver this overly long post full of conjecture, but I am more uncertain of the effect of non-perfect digital 1's and 0's on the reproduction of the very fine details of music.

Enjoy the music!!

-docknow

@lalitk @docknow @thynameThank you all for the responses ! I’m not quite convinced! But I appreciate the civil discussion and the chance to learn..

@mikem,

You’re welcome. I understand you prefer to remain skeptic at this time than trying a solution and trusting your own ears. If you change your position, try this simple test with the USB purifier and report back your findings. 

https://www.amazon.com/iPurifier3-Audio-Signal-Filter-White/dp/B07DLMZP5Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3CO2XRJP3Q...

@mikem Prego!!  As has been said slightly differently "Most things matter", not all.  The trick is to figure out which ones matter the most, at the least cost per unit of improvement.  One would go broke otherwise.  Have to run, the mailman is here with another $500 tweak, lol

@antigrunge2 -- Thanks for your response. I'll look into the LPS you mentioned. I was previously considering getting and English Electric 8Switch, but the EMO filter is definitely worth a look.

One more thing:  make sure that there is maximum distance between your router and its power supply, whether wall wart or LPS. 

And another addendum: changing from cat6 to cat8 ethernet cable brought significant benefits. Furthermore inserting a DXE ISO-Plus filter into the ethernet connection at the router and just in front of the streamer begets a whoa boost in clarity and attack, for a total outlay of $60 this is easily the biggest bang for the buck streaming improvement.

How about just pimping your LAN?  Run fiber instead of copper.  Once you go lite-brite, you'll never go nite-nite.

I'm planning ahead, with mind to improve streaming. Has to be via wifi. Have an LPS ordered for my modem and wireless router. Also bought a TP-Link repeater for my streamer, as it has an ethernet port. Will go Meicord Opal to streamer.

Considering for next year:

1. Fidelizer Airstream wireless router.

2. EtherRegen.

Where should I put a network bridge in this chain? Are there any with less than 8 ports?

Then will look at a clock a little later for the EtherRegen.

The Etherregen should be directly in front of your streamer; the connection via Meicord Opal as short as possible. Rather than use a repeater consider using an Apple Airport as a repeater. Repeaters going via the power lines collect all sort of noise on the way. Alternatively you might use a mesh wifi setup.

From where I sit there is no need for a network bridge once you get the Etherregen since that is a 4 port switch in its own right. I’d also suggest you experiment with shifting the LPS to the Etherregen and consider getting a second one.

Thanks. I’d thought the EtherRegen should be last thing into the streamer. Have bought an 0.25m Meicord Opal for that task.

Have thought about cleaning up the signal from the repeater’s ethernet out. Options? Read about the Eno passive filter as a possibility. Others?

 

Will have to sell some gear in the new year, and can then look at getting an EtherRegen, plus an LPS for it. Have bought a few things in the last couple of months. A modded Dac, Project streamer, Akiko Tuning Stick and Tuning Chip, Black Ravioli Big pads, 2 x Meicord Opals, 2 x LPSs, a wifi extender, as well as had my amp recapped. Have also ordered SR Purple fuses for my amp and Dac.

That's been a busy couple of months.

 

Wow, that’s quite a shopping list!

Enjoy