"The room is wired for ethernet but as yet not connected I only have WiFi in use."
It might be that WiFi is the culprit!
Does it sound like this?
Phono cartridge noises
Hi All,
I finally after many years built a new home with a dedicated music room and was quite happy with it until I connected my turntables. I've never run across this and looking for advice as I'm truly lost on what I’m experiencing.
I have two phono preamps, the Jolida JD-9 II / Grado Gold G2+2 High Output cartridge / Project RM 1.3 and a Black Ice Fusion F159 / Grado Reference Low Output cartridge / VPI Scout. Without the cartridges connected I have a slight bit of air noise when I turn up the volume which I kind of expect. As soon as I plug in the cartridges I pick up what I think is internet noise and not in a small way. The high output masks it to a point, the low output can't be used at all. It sounds like I'm on a spaceship! It's a high pitched noise with a morse code like beeping sound, a lot of background kinda rumble/flutter and distortion. The room is wired for ethernet but as yet not connected I only have WiFi in use. When I switch to any other source input on the main preamp all noise goes to silence. I have connected the phonos with different cables from Transparent Audio, Morrow, Original phono cables that came with the tables and even tried an old set of Monster Cables; all produce the same result as soon as the cartridge is introduced into the loop.
Has anyone come across this I'm truly stumped?
K
33 responses Add your response
Hi Yogiboy, the sound clip you linked isn’t it but I did find one that’s really close to it. To better identify. I pulled the plugs on my router, there was no change. What I didn’t really pay any attention to until now is that they built a 5G tower about 1,000 feet away that’s just slightly higher than my system room. I don’t think there’s any way to correct that! Lewm, I have three dedicated circuits, no difference day or night, suburbs. What bugs me is that at my apartment a few blocks further away from the tower I didn’t have this issue!
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When using a powerline ethernet adapter I found significant digital riding on my mm phono pre via o-scope. I didn’t try mc but from the amplitude am fairly certain it would have been audible. Given that yours is audible only with the cart connected, looking at broadcast sources makes sense. We had a neighbor whose radio would transmit loud and clear on our tt when he cranked the output wattage. Maybe a ho cart for now? |
Interesting! I have a new Grado HO Reference that I haven’t installed, yet. Guess that’ll be sooner vs later! It’s tolerable at low volume and may be the only way I can enjoy my vinyl. Sad thing for me is/was my plan to DSD all my vinyl; that’s no longer possible as that noise will be a part of it. Thanks for the advice! |
Hi Stingreen, I have just a little air all the way to both tables when disconnected. As soon as I plug the tables in the noise enters. This morning the LO cartridge I moved the VPI with the LO Grado to the opposite side of the room and it started playing a radio station! It was better where it was! The digital side of the system is awesome, even my reel to reel is fine it’s only the cartridges that are the issue and were my favorite focus that if been collecting albums for over the last 40 years! K |
There is no reason to believe that an SS phono stage would be less sensitive to RFI. In fact, an SS stage is more likely to be MORE sensitive to RFI, because an SS stage will likely have a wider bandwidth, not that that extra bandwidth, for example above 100kHz, is necessarily vital for audio. Also, in this case, the RFI is likely to be airborne from the nearby tower. Thus adding filters across AC and audio inputs is not likely to completely eliminate the problem, although there is no reason not to try it. In the worst case, you may have to consider placing your phono stage inside a Faraday cage type of shield. |
Do you use or have any LED lighting? I use LED lighting for mood at night but I found that it gave me noticeable static and electronic noise. When I turn the LED lighting off the noise goes away. Just a thought. Only affects the phono stage and none of the other gear hooked up. It is a strange thing and I have not found a way to eliminate besides turning it off. Just one more thing to check and may not have any affect at all. |
Noromance, Airborne RFI can enter via the cables or any piece of equipment, in this case the phono stage. Once it gets in, it can be propagated by cabling anywhere. so why is the observation that phono needs to be plugged in contrary to the airborne hypothesis? Or are you only wondering whether the Faraday cage would help? I assume cables are shielded, although maybe not adequately. |
@lewm As the interference is only occurring when the cartridge is plugged in, the issue is not with the phono amp itself, and therefore, the Faraday cage wouldn’t make a difference. The noise is being injected. That's why I suggested common RFI solutions above. |
Define “injected”. Anyway, did Skyy tell us he can select the phono inputs on his linestage, and if the tonearm is disconnected from the phono stage inputs, there is no noise? If he explicitly said that, I missed it. I agree that would suggest RFI is getting in upstream from the phono stage. Sky, is this correct? |
Something in your system is acting as an antenna. It usually is connected to ground. Now you have to go by trial and error. Disconnect all the ground wires and put ground cheaters on the phono stage and preamp power cables. See what you have for hum. Now remove the cheater from the phono stages and connect the tonearm ground wires to the phono stages. If there is no hum or noise stop here. If you are interested in finding the criminal add one wire or remove one cheater at a time. When the noise returns you have found it. |
He doesn’t have “hum”, in the sense of 60 or 120Hz noise. He needs shielding from that nearby radio antenna, and yes, the shield must be grounded to have an effect. We don’t know whether even his cables are shielded. Seems to me the only thing to be gained by selectively breaking existing ground connections is the possible introduction of hum, which is not a gain. |
@lewm It's basically adding a signal at any point in a circuit for whatever reason, mainly troubleshooting. See here for more info. In this case the added signal is the unwanted RF. |
All, Thank you all for trying to assist, I'm going to answer everyone I hope!
Lewm - You are correct I do not have a 60/120Hz noise. I have a very high pitched tone with morse code type noise and a low pitched like rumble going on - the subs don't like it!
mijostyn - I have disconnected everything with the exception of the phono preamps/preamp and mono blocks. I did use ground lifters on all with no change; the RF noise is very much present. As I said to Lewm above I don't have a hum I have what sounds like internet traffic. noromance - I'm not sure how the tracer would help the noise doesn't appear until the cartridge is adde to the loop. I'm noise free all the way to the turntables themselves. As soon as I plug the cables to the table(s) the noise is immediate. I have tried both shielded mid-line Transparent Audio Phono cables, Morrow PH-4's, and even an old pair of Monster cables all with the same result. silence until the tables are plugged in. I tried cupping my hands around the cartridge with no change. What the heck it could hurt! History: the system did not have any of these issues at my old house. The only changes to it were the addition of the Black Ice Phono preamp; an existing Jolida JD-9 (has the noise as well) so it's not the Black Ice, new speakers, new home with a dedicated media room. As an 'I know this shouldn't change anything but' last night I moved the two 100+ pound new speakers out of the room and replaced them with my old B&W's - other than wearing me out there was no change as I figured but anything is possible and needs to be ruled out. This weekend I'm going to move one of the TT and preamps to my den which is in the middle of the house on the second floor across from the media room. In that room I have an McIntosh integrated with an Project TT fitted with an Audio Technica MM cartridge. This system is not picking up the noise which is truly a mystery. If it is the tower it should be present in that room as well. The media room does have LED lights/no dimmers that are on a different circuit. Noise doesn't change with them on or off. I have a whole house Surge Protector again, no difference if it's on or off. There are 3 dedicated circuits pulled to the room that run under the floor to the outlets behind the system. One is for the Mono blocks, One for the home theater amp (not yet installed) and the third powers the outlets around the room to handle the subwoofers. The only thing in the ceiling are the 2 A/C vents. Two walls are brick and two are cement panels; one contains the window 36"x36" in the rear side looking at the 5G tower. Not sure if any of this helps just providing background in case it triggers something. Again, THANK YOU ALL for sharing your knowledge to help me solve this. K I'll report back once I move the TT tot he den. |
@skyy75234 Yeah, the tracer was between me and Lew in discussing signal injection. Are you sure there are no routers/modems/repeaters near the room? Grados can be prone to hum. Have you tried a different cartridge? |
He doesn’t have hum. He just said so. Although it’s a good idea to worry about routers/modem/repeaters, why go there when we know he has a giant radio antenna 1000 yards from his room? In medicine there is a canard about hearing hoofbeats and worrying that you are about to be trampled by zebras. Skyy, you last wrote, "As soon as I plug the cables to the table(s) the noise is immediate..." This makes me envision the cable from your tonearm into the phono stage. Is that correct? This means the RFI is getting in anywhere from the connector input to the phono stage to the cartridge itself. Have I got that right? And you say your phono cables are shielded. Correct? Just to prove the source, I wonder whether you could put together a cage made out of metal wire fencing or screen (smallest holes practical) and place it over your turntable, completely enclosing it. (Ideally, you'd want the cage to have a bottom as well, running underneath the TT.) If that affects the problem positively, that would at least tell you what to target with some more practical shield. Faraday cages need to be grounded, too. You could ground that contraption to the wall socket ground.
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@lewm I know he doesn’t have hum. But a cartridge susceptible to hum may also be sensitive to RF breakthrough.
Because he said the turntable in another room is fine. i.e. not affected by the antenna.
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All, I wanted to close this discussion out with a long awaited almost resolve to the issue. I tried 2 other turntables in the system and the noise from the 5G tower was virtually non-existant. I did buy some Faraday fabric and after finding the hot spot pinned it to the wall which dropped the noise significantly further but the issue with the VPI Scout was still in full bloom every time I plugged the RCA's into the back of the table! I even tried covering the TT with the Faraday cloth and it still came through. The only difference between all the tables I plugged in was the cartridge set up. All the other were MM and the VPI was fitted with a Low Output Grado. I flipped the switch on the back of the phono preamp to MM and the noise dropped immediately to almost silence. I removed the LOMM cartridge and installed a High Output Grado Ref 3 MM and all is good. Not 100% great I can still hear faint 5G data transmission between tracks but not enough for me to fight with it anymore. Thank you all for jumping in to try and help me out! K |
Sorry OP, I know how frustrating analog issues can be. When I had an Audio Research Reference 3SE Phono, I found its High Gain mode highly susceptible to noise from my plasma TV an adjacent room. It sounded like demonic gargling noises (lol). Other MC phono stages, like Herron VTPH2A, were not susceptible to this noise. Using the Ref 3SE in Low Gain more with a SUT was completely immune to the noise. Interestingly, the Ref 3SE has an acrylic top - to show off the nice insides. It looks like your Black Ice Fusion F159 also has a non-metal glass or acrylic faceplate? Perhaps that’s related to this issue. By contrast, SUTs are generally extremely well shielded. Grados are also known to be poorly shielded. I suppose the noise can inject itself anywhere there’s a weak spot in the chain, and the lower the signal level at its injection point (cart, tonearm, MC stage), the worse it manifests. Anyways, high chance that MC stage is contributing (faceplate). Then on your JD9 - I always wondered about that unit’s specs - they seem to be impossible, or frankly made up, but nobody seems to question it. 70dB gain MM mode, 95dB MC mode, 100dB signal-noise? That’s literally impossible. I wonder what is the actual gain on these units? If the spec were true, you’d never need to run MC mode except for something like a 0.05mV Ortofon MC2000. |
Hi Mulveling, I don’t think the acrylic faceplate on the Black Ice contributed to anything as both it and the JD-9 replicated when I changed the settings for the low input Grado. I did try covering both preamps with the Faraday cloth but nothing changed. The only ‘leak’ was at the RCA junction box on the VPI and only occurred when I plugged the RCA’s into the table. Unplugged I had no noise. Even with the cartridge removed from the arm as soon as I plugged in the cables the noise appeared. Onto the phone preamp. I had the JD9 for a few years and gave it to my brother and purchased the JD9 II. I’ve done some tube rolling and not sure what’s in there right now, I’m thinking Amperex Bugle Boys from Brent Jessie. I have the entire Jolida Music Envoy system, preamp, mono blocks and the Envoy CD player. I bought the whole shebang from Shanghai years ago. The phono always sounded great to me until building the new home, dedicated music room and the lovely 5G tower! I really don’t look at specs I went with my ears and to date have not had any system issues or buyers remorse for the purchase. I’ve always been a Grado guy but thinking that it may be time to invest in something other than Grado to possibly remove the last traces of noise. I know you’re a Koetsu guy from reading your posts. Any suggestions on an alternative MM high output cartridge other than Ortofon, not a fan of that sound at all? |
That's fair. I'm sure the JD9's sound & work great - just the specs always struck me as clearly "wrong". Probably a mistake that was never corrected. One of my first audiophile components was their JD100a CD player, and I remember it sounding GREAT. The Envoys were well beyond my reach at that time, but wow did they ever seem exotic and awesome! Yep, as you know, I'm pretty much exclusively MCs. I totally get not being into the higher end Ortofon sound. I love some of their lower models for the money, but at the Black level - yeah I get it. I've got no experience to draw from on high output MI's, but SoundSmith's high output MI models seem to be the obvious choice here. I'm not clear what the actual advantage is to their low output versions, given there's no moving coil mass like with MCs. And in your case, fighting noise, the high output versions are the clear choice. I've got a friend in Singapore with similar tastes to mine, and a large MC collection too, who absolutely loves his SS Boheme (HO, discontinued model). The SS high output carts are in my list to try at some point :) |
