The Road Runner is going back into production, in a deal struck between Phoenix Engineering designer/owner Bill Carlin and SOTA Industries. However, it may be a dedicated SOTA turntable-only product.
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The RR is half the battle. The real benefit is realized when the RR is used in concert with either the Eagle or the Falcon to power the motor. In that case, the RR feeds back to the power supply and holds speed steady as a rock (once equilibrium is achieved). The RR alone only monitors platter speed; it does not autocorrect the speed. If SOTA is going to market the duo, I don't see why you could not use the SOTA product(s) with any 3-phase AC synchronous tt motor. |
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We have designed a Tachometer that displays RPM to 3 decimal points like the RR and will offer it for sale soon - it will however not communicate with a power source to correct speed issues. it’s accuracy is 5ppm better than the RR. I thought the RR had an accuracy of 2.5ppm; how can it be better by 5ppm? |
Stingreen Yes its only a speed indicator, it does not control any associated motor drive functions. I have used quite a few of the Roadrunners in my DD tables, so when Bill closed shop I needed to find a replacement, none were available so we had to design our own. Its slightly larger than the Roadrunner the Aluminum case is 6.25 deep, 3.875 wide and 1.625 tall https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dn308/ Good Listening Peter |
@pbnaudio, what great timing, I was just running it through my mind why something like this has not been available. Will be nice to just look over while system is running and see exactly what it is doing without having to get out the Kab and set up the strobe. Thanks to sgunther for bringing this up. |
Peter, your comments lead me to believe that you have probably installed your tachometer on a few Denon turntables that you have restored. I am wondering whether you find that your tachometer is in agreement with the built in strobe device on Denon dd turntables. Which is to say, when the strobe image is stable, indicating 33.33 RPM, is the tachometer reading the expected value? thanks. |
Lewm Yes indeed - the Denon DD's are very precise - I use the Tachometers on the DP80 Professional and the DN308 Professional. The reading is 33.333 with the last number varying a slight bit, they all lock in at "their" speed, which can be 33.334 or 33.332 and some at 33.333 The Oscillators are not adjustable on most of them - only the DP7000 and a few of the DP6000 have had adjustable oscillators. Good Listening Peter |
Lew All the Denon DD’s I work on have Adjustable speed - however as you mention this disengage the servo control. What Im talking about above is the internal oscillator from which the speed control is derived, only the DP7000 allows for adjusting the clock speed (with a small adjustable capacitor) which for the DP7000 is 300kHz. Good Listening Peter |
IMO a Roadrunner type device alone is a non-starter. If you keep it visible it will drive you nuts. For if you have a belt drive you will probably see it vary over time especially as the bearing warms up. Either it will give you agita over differences you cannot hear or you will jump up and down to correct the speed continually. The Roadrunner-Eagle/Falcon combination, on the other hand, is a genius combination letting you forget completely about turntable speed and concentrate on everything else. While I understand there may have been reasons, VPI made a big mistake in not licensing all of this when they may have had the chance. |
melm, :-) Which is why I prefer DD tables. We developed the Tachometer because Phoenix Engineering closed shop and we use quite a few of these in our Turntables. I got an email form Sota - they are indeed re introducing the Roadrunner and the Falcon they are planning on starting shipping late next month. For those whom want to see a preliminary photo of the Tachometer Im posting a picture on my Virtual page system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4923#&gid=1&pid=15 Still need to get the Smoke Gray Plexiglass front panels done - this will tame down the brightness of the LED Display. Good Listening Peter |
@pbnaudio You may like DD turntables. Many people do, and they certainly have their conveniences. My own opinion is that for a DD turntable to provide the same quality sound as a good belt-drive TT it has to be very expensive. Like the forthcoming VPI DD which will be a relative bargain at $15,000. We have yet to see if it performs as well as its predecessor at $30,000 (?). IMO the cheaper Japanese models like the Denons you write about have a distortion, hard to measure but easier to hear. It’s kind of a micro-flutter caused by the tiny, but constant, speed corrections. Michael Fremer described it as, "ultra-high-speed hunting and pecking as it over- and undercompensates in the attempt to produce a consistent speed can create a jitter effect in the mid-treble to which the human ear is particularly sensitive, adding a hard, brittle texture to music." I agree. Beyond that I fail to understand why anyone with a DD turntable and its automatic speed control would want to have a Roadrunner type device. In effect the Roadrunner/Falcon functionality is already built in. |
Melm, The reason to put the Tachometers in the turntables to display their accuracy. If you got it flaunt it. :-) I don't hear the "servo hunting" your describing rather I hear consistency in tempo, great pace and drive. I do add substantial weight to the platters of these tables by adding copper mats, this of course increase inertia so if what your describing exist its effect is greatly diminished. I have built several plinths for the older style VPI DD table - even one for HW and it was a very nice machine. I have the new one on order already from pictures I've seen its smaller than the old drive. To get the same speed stability I have a hard time getting with any belt drive. For an example I made several experiments with belt drive units one was adding more than one drive belt - 2 was better than one 3 was better than two and 4 was again better than 3 this must be because there is some microscopic belt slip. Any one with a VPI Flywheel drive station should try more than one belt - you'd be surprised by its effect. https://pbnaudio.com/original-groovemaster/ Good Listening Peter |
@pbnaudio
You wrote: "I don't hear the 'servo hunting' your describing rather I hear consistency in tempo, great pace and drive. I do add substantial weight to the platters of these tables by adding copper mats, this of course increase inertia so if what your describing exist its effect is greatly diminished." On the basis of what you say,, I believe that you DO hear the "servo hunting" described by Fremer. You say you add "substantial weight" to the platters. I presume you do that because the additional weight increases the SQ of the analog playback. Increased platter weight almost always does. The difference between what you heard with the light platters and the heavier platters is exactly what Fremer is writing about. Heavy platters (and other flywheel devices) has always been the advantage of belt-drive TTs (with the exception of super-expensive DD TTs). Also heavy platters are less likely to ring. For the Japanese DD TTs you write about, though, the ability to add weight is severely limited by their comparatively weak motors. |
Melm, No actually not - any mat will change the sound of a turntable setup, and I prefer the sound a copper mat produce. Im thinking about haven one made of Stainless Steel just to try that. Now lets talk about motors on the DD tables I am talking about, I restore Denon DP3000/2000/6000/7000/80 and DN308. The motors on these are substantially larger than any of the motors typically used on any belt drive http://www.hurst-motors.com/aabdirectdrive.html this link takes you to the first choice of belt drive manufactures. The first 4 on my list use almost identical motors, the 80 is even larger, and the DN308 motor is the size of a gallon paint can. https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dp8/ - here you can see the motors on the first 4 and the DP80 which is 5.5" in diameter so you have come comparison. https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dn308/ This link shows you the motor on the DN 308 - the Bezel that holds the platter and motor is 15.375" just to give you some comparison. Good Listening Peter |
pbnaudio I don’t hear the "servo hunting" your describing rather I hear ...The "servo hunting" common to many DD turntables isn’t detectable as speed variations, ime, but as a veil to the sound. Before I went to belt drive, I had a Denon DP-6000 and then a DP-80. I can’t imagine ever returning to DD. |
@pbnaudio
You wrote: "The motors on these are substantially larger than any of the motors typically used on any belt drive http://www.hurst-motors.com/aabdirectdrive.html this link takes you to the first choice of belt drive manufactures." I'm surprised to read that you said that. The physics of belt drives, with the motor revolving much faster than the platter, permits very small (and very quiet) motors to turn a 30+ pound platter. In fact, the Hurst motors are among the larger motors used for belt drives. Excellent sounding belt-drive TTs have been built with clock motors. The original Sondek motor, for ex., was a tiny one. As long as you're dragging this out, you wrote earlier: "The reason to put the Tachometers in the turntables to display their accuracy. If you got it flaunt it. :-)" Are you for real? You're selling a tach to DD TT owners that does exactly what their TT already does. So you want them to invite their friends in to watch the tach? Really?? |
Nor can I (imagine a return to BD). Nor do I hear any “veil” coloration or “hunting”, once the plinth is made proper for the device. This is with serviced and calibrated DD tables at quality level DP80 and up. (SP10 Mk3, Kenwood L07D, Victor TT101.) If you pick up a DD at a garage sale or from your uncle’s closet in unknown condition don’t assume that because it “works” you are getting its best performance. And then don’t think you know how they “all” sound, please. |
I apologize to anyone if I sound vitriolic. But one more thing about belt drive aficionados does irk me. That is, they have no problem claiming they can hear the servomechanism of a direct drive turntable hunting, yet most are eager to acquire a speed controller for their a belt drive turntables, a device that itself relies upon a feedback mechanism to maintain constant speed. It seems to me you can’t have it both ways. And indeed I have found that such add on devices almost invariably make belt and idler drive turntables sound a lot better. |
@lewm The inertia of a 20 pound platter smooths out the feed back effects. They sound better with the various controllers because they depend for speed upon the 50 or 60Hz cycle from the electric company. That cycle can now be made more precise with these add ons. Also they drop the voltage (after start-up) which further weakens the already small motors. Weaker motors means less effect upon the heavy turning platter. The fact that you cannot hear the distortion does not mean it’s not there, just that you cannot hear it. I’d suppose Fremer has a better ear than you do . . . and better associated equipment. |
lewm ... If you pick up a DD at a garage sale or from your uncle’s closet in unknown condition don’t assume that because it “works” you are getting its best performance. And then don’t think you know how they “all” sound, please.Just to be clear, I bought my DP-80 brand new from a Denon dealer, and installed it in a VPI two-arm base. (That was before VPI made its own turntables.) The DP-80 was a very, very good table and I enjoyed it for years. But I think the very best belt drives sound better. Much better. But one more thing about belt drive aficionados does irk me. That is, they have no problem claiming they can hear the servomechanism of a direct drive turntable hunting, yet most are eager to acquire a speed controller for their a belt drive turntables, a device that itself relies upon a feedback mechanism to maintain constant speed.Sorry, you're mistaken. Most speed controllers, such as the VPI SDS and ADS and many others, are not servo controlled. The Phoenix Falcon/Roadrunner product was an exception. |
Cleeds The DP80 is a fantastic machine, in its original form the only setback as I see it was the pot metal pan they and the other models I use as donors were mounted on. Once you get them out of that their stellar performance really shines through. Here is an example https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dp80/ To me these machines sound much better than any belt drive which to me has a sluggish sound. Melm, That you postulate that you can hear the servo mechanism working , is probably because you want to - it does not mean its there. The same reason that people "hear" differences in Fuses etc, to me this is pure BS. They hear it because they want to hear it. As far as associate equipment used with these magnificent tables the list is long, currently I have in rotation 2 each DN308 one with a Triplanar U12 carrying a Lyra Atlas, the other one have a Origin Live Enterprise C Tonearm carrying a Lyra Olympos. A DP8- Professional with a SME 4.5 carrying a Ortofon A90. I got a EMT950 a few weeks ago - restoring that one now. Hopefully a Denon DP100 will be in the stable soon as well. https://www.facebook.com/peter.noerbaek/videos/10156654485509512/ We have by the way made 5 each DP7 tables for Lyra in Japan, three with the mighty SAT tonearm, and Two that are used in production with Auddio Technica tonearms on the right side Ikeda on the left side https://pbnaudio.com/pbn-dp7/ Good Listening Peter |
cleeds, What in your opinion are the "very best" belt drives? For me, the very best belt drive turntables cost at least $25,000, new. Once you get up to that price point and above, you can buy some nice BD machines. I have less than that tied up in four DD turntables, total. Did you mean to imply by your response as regards the Phoenix Engineering products vs other outboard devices for BD turntables (which probably should not be called "controllers", since only the Phoenix and maybe also the new SOTA devices, actually do control speed when it varies over the course of playing an LP), that the PE stuff sounds inferior to a VPI SDS (for one example you chose to mention)? Those without an external feedback mechanism like the RR still do employ a sort of feedback; you set the speed under a load or no load condition, and the controller relies upon the constancy of the AC frequency to keep the motor operating at a certain speed, always based on the pre-set condition. There's feedback going on, but it's referenced to AC frequency (or I suppose some other internal reference), and it is inflexible for responding to the variation in load due to stylus drag, etc. Most listeners of my acquaintance do not love the VPI SDS, but I cannot say I have any opinion, since I never heard it. I own a Walker Audio Motor Controller; it doesn't hold a candle to the PE stuff, which I also own and use to drive my Lenco. Most reviewers said the WAMC was superior to the SDS. |
So we have $10k tables that can’t regulate their speed. Then someone is making a $300 box that’s nothing but a spedo and doesn’t regulate speed. I guess im shocked but then people will buy a $1500 McIntosh clock made from $15 worth of parts. So I guess maybe I’m not shocked. Clearly I don’t fit into this racket/hobby |
lewm cleeds, What in your opinion are the "very best" belt drives? For me, the very best belt drive turntables cost at least $25,000, new ...I'm not a member of the component-of-the-month club, so I really can't make a recommendation about today's best belt drive turntables. I use a VPI TNT Series III and haven't heard anything better - regardless of technology - since I bought it new back in the '90s. And I've been to the VPI house and heard all of their latest offerings, including the DD. (I did add an SDS to my VPI, which originally came with the older PLC controller.) Did you mean to imply by your response ... that the PE stuff sounds inferior to a VPI SDS.No, I didn't mean to imply that, but the one PE I did hear was not impressive. But that's just one data point, so I don't put much value on it. Those without an external feedback mechanism like the RR still do employ a sort of feedback; you set the speed under a load or no load condition, and the controller relies upon the constancy of the AC frequency to keep the motor operating at a certain speed, always based on the pre-set condition. There's feedback going on, but it's referenced to AC frequency ....To me, feedback implies a loop, so I don't consider that the PE Phoenix or VPI SDS units rely on feedback. They simply use the line frequency as a reference, as any typical synchronous motor does. I have no issue at all with the SDS, and I like that you can set the drive voltage to your preference ... although the detail on that isn't explained in the user manual. |
gochurchgo The PE Roadrunner was $400 - makes mine a bargain :-) The benefit from these tachometers are that you can actually see at what speed your TT is running. Good Listening Peter |
@cleeds, I've gone a similar route to you, with an original TNT and multi-upgrades over the years. But I would never give up the lead/acrylic platter. The PE Eagle is at least the equivalent of the SDS and, in fact, measures better and is somewhat easier to use. The Eagle (or Falcon) used with the Roadrunner does create a feedback loop and is a brilliant set-it-and-forget-it design. I sold my SDS when I bought this combo and even made a few bucks on the deal. The Phoenix stuff was a real bargain in its day. I hope it is revived by Sota for general sale. The Roadrunner actually measures a running average of about three complete rotations so that the speed adjustments, when they are made*, are relatively few as compared with the continuing micro-adjustments of the typical DD TT. The adjustments can't be heard, certainly not by me nor by anyone else who has written about these combos. *the speed, of course, is MOSTLY controlled by the precision line frequency synthesized in the Eagle. |
it originally retailed for $234 (it was the Falcon and Eagle that sold for more) I still have the receipt in the packaging for the Roadrunner I bought near when they first offered. $ 234 is what I paid Bill for it with a couple extra magnets and even an extra sensor so I could have it ready for both tables with simply plugging the sensor cable from one to the other. So much better than strobe discs or blinking lights on the wall. After a belt swap, bearing clean and re oil, or just to check RPM with stylus in the groove for accurate quick reading, its perfect. I get how some OCD fusspots would drive themselves mad as the RPM’s shift a few thousands off of 33.333 while the stylus navigates the record . But IMO , those people would be best to keep digital. If one cannot accept that analog playback using a turntable is a series of compromises, and balancing the absolutes with the moving exemptions to the rules that experience and opinion will bring, including which drive method is being used, it just becomes a not so merry go round of annoyance and idiotic bias. All drive methods have their short comings and advantages. Which floats your boat isn’t a matter of which one is better or not. It is just a matter of which one sounds more appealing to the owners ability, understandings and personal bias. I have heard/owned drives of all methods that I felt excelled remarkably well in "their" presentations of sound playback. I have owned and enjoyed them all over the last 45 plus years as they each have a specific sound, tempo and drive to the music. Choice is a good thing, not an argumentative foil to endure ad nauseum. I gravitated towards mostly belt drives the last 15 or so years as , for me personally , it sounds more natural to me . I think its we humans who hear much different than we acknowledge and instead make it a right and wrong thing. I think some of us are very susceptible to hearing interruption in soundwaves that "hunting" even on better spec’d DD’s have, an uneasiness to some. The belt has a much more gradual "smoothing" that feels more natural to some. The DD user obviously , many key in on minor belt drifts as timing errors. But realistically, very few can hear it at all as even modest belt drives are accurate enough that a musician maybe could pic up a minute error but the average audiophile, no , not at all. Idler drive users with a good set up simply couldn’t live without the drive to the sound they bring . The only thing wrong is that many " music lovers " make out that one drive is better than the other, empirically. They are not , they are options that offer different presentations and interpretations of the same recording, and they all have strengths and weaknesses and they all are made in different levels of quality, and addressing or focusing on different obstacles from designer to designer. The caveat is , choose "your own" medicine, or pick "your own" poison. Even though I mostly lean towards a good belt drive now, I think its really nice to see the higher end DD’s now currently being made, something I never thought would happen again. They are quite outstanding and likely will contribute to the other drive options still moving forward as well. For an all analog guy...….that’s a really good thing, not something to fuss about or knock them. |
has2be, you’ve posted a practical statement which, I would guess, most are capable of understanding. I’ve been in the process of modifying a Thoren’s TD 145 but still haven’t replaced the weakest link, the TP-16 tonearm. So to offset the tonearm’s limitations, I’ve mounted it with the AT 33 mono cartridge.I wish I could spend $30,000.00 on a turntable however like most, I cannot. So I’ve learned to expect and accept certain limitations from my TT. I would say that my greatest dissatisfaction comes from wow and flutter and from vintage offset pressings. So this is where digital comes in and given that I have a good analogue sounding DAC and that almost all classical recordings are currently in digital format, it’s a no brainer. So any recommendations on which replacement tonearm I should consider? |
Goofy Your correct on mine it only display what speed your table is turning at. As did the Roadrunner, but it could “talk” to the Falcon power supply which corrected any speed irregularities as well as is possible on a belt driven table. I dont know much about the TD124 if it has an asynchronous AC motor it should work with it. As I mentioned above Sota is reintroducing the combination next month. Good Listening Peter |
I find this discussion interesting since I ditched my belt drive VPI's for idlers-a hot rodded Thorens TD124 and a Garrard 301. When I owned my VPI Prime, I heard a distinct jump up in SQ with the Phoenix Engineering Falcon and Roadrunner, but after about a month my ears/brain became accommodated and I was no happier, sonically speaking, than I had been before. The Thorens on the other hand, once Greg Metz of ClassicThorens installed his custom designed huge main bearing and top platter along with a complete rebuild of everything else mated to a Reed arm has continued to thrill me for six months and I doubt that thrill is going to go away. Greg is fond of saying that the strobe on the Thorens is more of a curse than a benefit. Users make the mistake of obsessing over the strobe and continually adjusting the eddy brake and in doing so they undershoot and overshoot the speed. Greg suggests just setting the eddy brake at the correct speed once the motor has been running for an hour and then each time you intend to play music, get the table warmed up ahead of time and ignore the strobe. That is exactly what I do. Any variation from perfect speed is not detectable as affecting pitch. Someone above mentioned picking your shortcoming as all drives have them. I look at it just slightly differently; each drive method has it's strengths. Pick which strength you most want rather than pick which shortcoming you wish to avoid. |
@goofyfoot I had an SME 3009 11 improved with the removable head shell on the Thorens TD145 I had back in the seventies. That was the only arm I used on it while I owned it and it played well with the 145. If your hearing wow and flutter in the music , address that first and foremost. I never had any speed issues with mine so I know that when all components and circuitry is at spec they perform well within reasonable acceptance. There are those that consider your arm underrated , but that is a personal choice of biased requirements and reasonable mating of neither the table or the arm underused or overvalued in playback. Equal to each other... @fsonicsmith Actually that is not what was said at all. It was never alluded to as picking the short comings. It was highlighting the FACT , they all have short comings and different presentations to the same recordings. Quote... Has2be quote.... The last sentence, I capped for the point made. That is picking your preference of sound choice (medicine) , not trying to make something it isn’t and never will be like many "poison" themselves to believe they can. You brought up idler drives which is a perfect example. I spent a lot of time with Garrod 301’s and no other drive method can replicate the sonic drive they and other sorted idlers have. Turntables don’t sound better or worse because of the drive method applied. They sound better or worse because they are poorly designed or built regardless of drive, or are well built and designed, but poorly set up and operated. The later is painful to see and hear while the owner blames the product or drive method. |
