Pheonix Engineering Road Runner

They sound better or worse because they are poorly designed or built regardless of drive,

To put it diplomatically, you are naive. As with all other components in the chain, no amount of engineering can do away with the flaws inherent in recording and playing back vinyl. Perhaps you suffer from Mike Fremeritis. It's a condition where someone who used to embrace the limitations of vinyl suddenly aspires to and strives to challenge the theoretical limits of digital reproduction. In other words, a simple form of deluded madness. This syndrome is most often seen in 65-70 year old men who can not accept the simple notion that their time is nearing an end. 

@fsonicsmith To put it diplomatically, you are naive. As with all other components in the chain, no amount of engineering can do away with the flaws inherent in recording and playing back vinyl. Perhaps you suffer from Mike Fremeritis. It’s a condition where someone who used to embrace the limitations of vinyl suddenly aspires to and strives to challenge the theoretical limits of digital reproduction. In other words, a simple form of deluded madness. This syndrome is most often seen in 65-70 year old men who can not accept the simple notion that their time is nearing an end

Your comprehension sucks.....
I never said anything can do away with the flaws at all. Quite the opposite actually. I made a point of saying they all have flaws and strengths. Its the users ability to maximize the limits it can achieve from a medium rife with challenges that include the equipment in the chain and the users experience, which includes making the right choice for what your looking for.. I have never so much as read a single thing Fremer writes about anything. I embrace the medium because I have a very large vinyl collection from over a decade of working part time in a record store to pay for the records. And another couple decades buying them when they were being given away. Some is music you simply can’t find on other formats. You learn things over the years to avoid and to look for and in doing that makes it as well as it can be. I never suggested it was the end all. My reel to reel player most times exceeds the turntables performance IMHO.
You have a quick shiitty attitude towards fellow members and even go as far as inventing context that didn’t or doesn’t exist. Try reading and grasping the context of ALL the words , not the straws that line your argumentative nature, you think.... I bet your a real quiet man without a keyboard where facial expression and scale to size would reduce your insincerity and bravado, drastically.....

’Some is music you simply can’t find on other formats. ’ has2be,
this is why I started investing in mono classical vinyl, due to its unavailability in the digital (remastered) format. I have some great original vinyl from the 1950’s as well as newly remastered and repressed mono vinyl.The inherent nature of owning this formatted type of recording is to realize the benefits of mono while excepting its limitations (though subjective). Which leads me to conclude that all recordings are limited in some way. John Cage was quoted as saying that "a recording of Beethoven’s 5th ain’t Beethoven’s 5th."
It’s hard to imagine a future reality when recorded music will equal or exceed the listening experience of a live performance. Even from an aesthetic perspective. This being a reference point, I then have to evaluate the very nature of a tube tuner vs a solid state tuner, electrostatic vs. dynamic speakers, an active line conditioner vs a passive one, etc..This being said, I don’t much see the point in getting just a tachometer to mount onto my turntable platter. It reminds me of the oscilloscope on the Marantz 10 B, something to watch in terms of visual stimulation. One might as well by fine art instead.With the Roadrunner, Phoenix and Falcon in mind, I’d like to also mention that an external device with the ability to make platter rotation corrections is intriguing however I would need to hear it in operation, or at least be told the audible advantages to owning one before buying the thing. And in today’s world where most transactions are done via online, these devices become very inaccessible. In other words, I’ve yet to be convinced of the audible advantages of hooking this equipment up to my Thoren’s belt drive turntable which might explain why the company went finito.

@goofyfoot 

I get what your saying about just the roadrunner that some may feel its unnecessary to "them" personally. It all depends how one utilizes it . I don't and cant see running it when the table is playing and I'm listening to music . As I said earlier , details people gloss over these days,.... when changing a belt, cleaning and re-lubing the bearing yearly, moving and re-setting the table, swapping cartridges/arms etc and the ability to adjust speed to where needed by actual digits while the needle is in the groove after such things is prudent and extremely nice compared to staring at a cheap strobe to see approx. speed vs. actual speed.Its a tool if used as such , its a toy if that's all your able to see it as I guess.
As far as the falcon goes , its also a tool , for the incoming power to your AC motor. The falcon and eagle allow your AC motor to run a near perfect speed regardless of the fluctuation in frequency coming in by generating a stable frequency and when used with the Roadrunner a looped feedback making very stable and adjustable speed. 
If you feel this won't make a big difference because your table is satisfactory to you in speed and works for you, then , why spend the money is a non argument with me. Belts these days don't have the same results from one to the next when new or as they break in either and can run slow/fast by as much as a full rpm from one belt to the next. Seeing how much speed is picked up after lubricants heat up, or belts adjust to friction from playing is useful information to have before adjusting something cold and knowing when to leave it alone.
I unplug the power to mine after I use it to check speed after the need to check it is prudent to do so. The rest of the time it sits unlit.
The comment of the company going under as far as reasons are just false speculation. He simply retired, period and has been a willing and helping and appreciated source to many DIY guys as well to be fair to him, that's something few go out of their way to offer.
I agree , how accurate the speed is to you or the next guy is totally what that user feels is necessary to his needs or goals or situation. The next guy may require not just tighter control but have a table that would be more in need of it than the next guy. One of the knocks for belt drives has always been speed drift (wow/flutter). A guy comes up with a device to make AC motors run almost perfectly to speed with in thousands of the target RPM and he gets negative and false opinions and statements , usually from people who actually don't know or understand how it actual works with the associated digital frequency lens the eagle/falcon supplied as a loop, as demonstrated in this thread. 
Its not a necessity to have the roadrunner at all. Its just a tool , like a strobe is, the ones you don't see anymore that all tables seemed to have as a reference decades ago. One could always just download a strobe and print it , or by a ready made one for 100 bucks then need the light running at 60 hz to see it properly. I thought for 234 dollars having a strobe that after a belt  change , a yearly bearing clean and lube , or after a cartridge / arm swap reads exactly the speed and if a speed adjustment is needed its done, if not then great. Its a better tool than a strobe , period. If I had an AC motor using the Falcon and Roadrunner as a loop I would place them  pointing upward so I wouldn't see them from the seated position . My table has its own Power supply with a tachometer on the motor as a loop that maintains a very good stable speed . The roadrunner allows me to see exact numerical speed as I adjust the pots without the need for platter strobes, the loop just maintains where its set . They are just a better way to do it, period. I also repair turntables , so after swapping a motor out, or refurbing circuits with new caps etc and a run in time, they are great to set the speed accurately and see drift and the range of fluctuation.
I have a friend who uses his to accurately dial in the speed that some albums were cut at and matching playback speed to optimize his enjoyment. ( has an amazing collection and knowledge of music and recording)  Like I said it is just a tool , some have practical use for it, others, yes, unnecessary  to them, but when looped with the falcon or eagle, accurate constant frequency in a feedback loop is quite frankly, the optimal goal in general terms . Same as DC motors in better tables have better power supplies for voltage and control of the speed the platter spins. When I first saw the Falcon Roadrunner option and for the price compared to other options, for any table running an AC motor in the modest price range , I felt, IMHO it was a inexpensive option to upgrade a modest price table that would cost considerably more if bought as part of the "better"spec'd much higher priced models. Also some manufactures charge exorbitant prices to replace motors and some parts simply unavailable that require a working donor at a premium. AC motors are inexpensive and a Falcon / Roadrunner option to a guy in that situation allows him to get his rig running easily and accurately with little experience and a lower cost. These reasons don't make it, or imply its a must or necessary for all, obviously. Lots of users happy with them would back them up, and the still demand for a product no longer in production and now its reincarnation (sota) would seem to give it a strong reason to stand on its merits versus others opinions of it's validity. Its just more choice and options to choose from , or not. That's something to be grateful for IMO , that ways to keep new and older tables running and in many cases running more accurate. Whats not to like, one either needs it or one doesn't. If you don't , that certainly can't be stretched into the other guy can't be as smart, for having an actual use for it that some don't have or can't see because they don't understand what and how it works or a situation that it actually benefits. Look at the cost of a DC motor replacement from origin live when all is said and done for the better motor and power supply if you wanted to repair a table in need of it. Two plus thousand dollars for something that runs about + - .2 % off speed. The eagle/ roadrunner with a new AC motor , for less would run exact speed for less cost. Its a good option to have. We all can't have the same reason for need , but ones reason for not needing something doesn't make that the standard for everyone else which is kind of the point for greater options and choice. That's how I personally see it , not a slight to anyone else's view or opinion , its a matter of use and reason and understanding that validates necessity from one individual to the next. Nothing more, or less........... 

   

Goofy, Your reasoning eludes me.  I assure you that your Thorens is not so speed stable as you would like to think it is now and that you would benefit, or rather your listening experience would benefit, if you were to install a Roadrunner in combination with a Falcon (which ought to have enough power to drive your Thorens motor).  The company did not go away because of financial difficulties.   The products were taken off the market because they represented a small fraction of what Phoenix Engineering does business-wise, and I think the owner just got fed up with solving problems for audiophiles.  The devices themselves are not toys for the anal. 

Hi Lewm,
You stated, "I assure you that your Thorens is not so speed stable as you would like to think it is now and that you would benefit, or rather your listening experience would benefit, if you were to install a Roadrunner in combination with a Falcon (which ought to have enough power to drive your Thorens motor).’ But as I mentioned in my post, how will I benefit? What noticeable improvements or characteristics will I hear and by what degree? We’ve chatted in the past and I’ve always valued your insight but I believe you’ve overlooked the central point of my comment. What I’m getting at is that I cannot install the unit to determine whether I notice any so called improvements and through my past inquiries with Phoenix Engineering, I was simply told that my sound would improve.

 It’s kind of a moot point, because as we both know, the Phoenix engineering stuff is no longer available. However if you really wanted to acquire same you could probably find it. However, the improvements that I notice are an increase in the definition of individual musical instruments and voices within a complex presentation. In addition there was an improvement in the sense of pace and timing. I would not be without. This was with a Notts Hyperspace at first and now with a highly modified Lenco idler.

Thanks lewm,
This is the first time anyone's described the beneficial characteristics of owning these components. My thought also would be that this technology will grow further and become more common as time passes. Hence, the suggestion that SOTA purchased the intellectual property to these devices and will incorporate the into their product line.

I have seen the Roadrunner and Falcon being sold on eBay or other websites via HiFi Shark. But as I mentioned in my previous post, would I benefit most from the Phoenix Engineering devices or from a new Jelco or SME tonearm?