''Óriginal parts'', ''identity '' and ''retip'' conundrum
The ''identity enigma'' is easy to explain with ''ownership''. Not everyone is familiar with logic or philosophy but everyone owns something or other.
Ownership assume ''one to one relation'' between an person (legal
bodies included) and one object of ownership. Think of question how
you can prove to own some object. You can also think about question
how to prove to be owner of, say an part of your stolen car.
What the ''force'' of the expression ''original'' is , is an enigma.
However Americans are typical example of people who are very
fond of ''original parts'' and willing to pay huge amount of money
for the ''precious'' (grin). By the so called ''retips'' the assumption
is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that
every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or
cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''
by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin
of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura. Is gluing an cantilever/
stylus combo in the ''joint pipe'' rocket science?
By definition, basic cost benefit analysis is a process of examining a variety of combinations and scenarios where there are costs and associated benefits. This can be accounting. The total benefits outweigh the total costs. However - What is the extra benefit (utility) you obtain from spending an extra amount of money given a menu of combinations? This is economics and the process becomes rather more nuanced, but we usually all become so good at it that it becomes intuitive. Note - I say extra. Should it be positive amount, it is a trade that you may decide upon. Because audiophiles are decisive folk. It may be a negative number, like when you have just bought a wonderful CD collection and you then you buy anything by Adele. I digress. Budget only becomes meaningful when it is a constraint and the possible combinations are thereby limited. @dover was not incorrect. |
Well pindac, You don't need to be modest reg. your intellectual capabilities. I deed need to search for the meaning of your expression ''merryment'' because there was no such word in my Dutch English vocabulary . But on internet was even its social function explained as humour. You are the first who grasped my intention to be , say, amusing. People obviously consider philosophy and logic as ''serous business. But this is not the case as an French mathematician stated about logical explanation of mathematics: ''this logical approach is certainly not infertile it produces paradoxes''. Thanks for your understanding .
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How dover killed his own ''rtinciple'' or ''arguments''. We first got as ''general rule'' (12-24) : ''it comes down to economics and budget'' (12-27) ''it is very simple : cost benefit analysis'' (principle?) But : ''it is not your business what I paid for my (3x) rebuild''. Well I reported ''my prices'' but he refuses to report his . How than can we make ''cost benefit analysis? But then as by the Greek ''deus ex machina'' the Denon 103 D. as ''prove'' that the point is not about prices. But why should our members bother about ''rebuild'', ''refreshment'' or even my ''inferior retip '' for 500 euro when we can get new Denon 103 D for $ 280 ? |
@nandric - Thank You for supplying such Merryment, it is great to see your willingness to embrace the Ambience of the Seasonal Celebrations. I don't know if you are devout in Christianity, and have adopted a very modern approach to the Celebration of Christmas where everything is based on excess and good cheer. The latter in the thread approach offered by yourself as your contributions to a discussion on an MC Cartridge having 'original' or 'non original parts' is pure comedy. The relevance and importance of the information being supplied, is unfortunately way above comprehension for my mere level of intelligence, but I assume this is your suspicion anyways. To quote one Philosopher on this matter has caused myself to be bewildered and I can't find the reasoning within me, to bring the Product and Philosopher together in any form of an alignment. I consider myself as not being stupid enough to overlook a content that is hilarious and in abundance with stupidity. These are the ingredients of all great comedy, so thank you for your wit and supplying the opportunity to smile and laugh aloud. The content on offer has prompted myself to think a little beyond the Thread Subject, and I have recollected that I know of one Modern Production Cartridge that might be aligned to a Philosophical Description that has been used for the Models name, as in Japanese Philosophy the term 'Umami' suggests that the experience of the of the native cuisine, is being able to produce a multi - sensory experience, I would assume such a basic description has been the centre of conversation at many a dinner party attended by affluent learned types, where the fundamental meaning has been intellectually assaulted to beyond recognition. Rightly or Wrongly on my behalf, I would believe this is a Philosophy used when the Hana Umami Red MC was having a design brief produced, who knows maybe the morning after one of the dinner parties referred to. |
Damn you pindac, I was forced to search for an possible explanation for Wittgenstein opinion about identity. I knew that is has something to do with difference between properties and meaning but forget the (damn) details. Well there is this ''huge German philosopher '' Leibniz with his ''principle'' of identity named in Latin parlance among scientist back then . Just bellow aristocracy qua status. the expressions was INDISCERNIBILIS or English INDISTINGUISHING: My guess was '' if there are two eggs'' than obviously (?) one can distinguish one from the other. But one need to know that back than it was not polite to contradict philosopher, Certainly so in Germany. Think of Kant . If you want to stay alive never say whatever bad about his greatness. Wittgenstein however was not even impresses by Russel or Frege and insulted both by stating that ''two of whatever'' can't be identical as well that this kind of identity MAKE NO SENSE. But he actually also stated the same for the other CRITERION : being identical with one self. This according to him ''says nothing''. So my best members of this forum look out with identity of parts and other CONUNDRUM as mentioned in this thread. |
Wittgenstein was Austrian Philosopher belonging to the so called ''analytical school''. His work was ''Tractatus'' and ''Philosophical investigations''. Alas he was not capable to formulate any theory but made many philosophical remarks. About 10000 in his investigation while an normal person can remember, say, 10. There was also one particle physics scientist very celebrated but I forget his name. Not however his statement: ''If I was smarter I could remember more of those particles''. In , uh, ''the same way'' I remember quoted statement about identity from Wittgenstein. '' A looks like B'' may , I hope, explain uh, ''the same cart'' in your description ? This assumes that A and B are not identical. In addition certainly so if they don't sound ,uh, ''the same''.
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Can a Link be supplied to the discussion where the referred to individual 'Wittgenstein' has made comments known about MC Cartridges and 'retips', this might help with eliminating Third Party interpretations, that are seemingly detracting from the subject of the thread. The content offered from the said person 'Wittgenstein' on the matter of commercial products assemblies and the consistent use of common parts whilst a range of models is being produced, appears to be suggested as being quite relevant.
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pindac , Those are ''deep philosophical waters'' because two different criteria are assumed. I already quoted Wittgenstein: ''for two things to say they are identical make no sense''. Even Quine was not able to explain the difference between equal and identical. Frege's problem to explain truth was caused by his conviction that ''correspondence'' in correspondence between an statement and reality make no sense because one is linguistic and ''the other'' is not. BTW the expression ''extra linguistic reality'' means ''the same'' . Now ''our carts''. If they are ''identical'' how can they sound different? There are to many people who sell their Van den Huls but there not many who sell their FR-7fz. or Takeda's Miyabi. BTW are Siamese twins equal or identical? If identical what kind of ID should they have. ? Are two eggs identical or equal in the sense of their property? Well there is ''property criterion'' and meaning criterion : ''everything is identical with itself''. According to Wittgenstein this ''says nothing''. :iucky us humans each individual has his own such that there are no two with the same identity. However some may look as an other(grin) |
If a product is produced from the exact same assembly of Materials, in the terms of a Marketing Description it is an Identical Model, and that is the requirement of the law to ensure the Model on offer complies with the materials used as advertised by the Supplier/ Manufacturer. As said when the time of Manufacturer Refurbishment Occurs, a disclaimer might declare that the materials in the assembly may not be maintained, if new parts are to be used in the process of refurbishment. I am sure that if an assembly of a selection of Parts belonging to a range of Cartridge Models was investigated with scientific control measures, a difference between a similar part, when compared is most likely to be detected, such a endeavour to match parts to this level of accuracy is not required to be carried out by the Cartridge Manufacturer, and I doubt whether such a practice has ever occurred. |
Can anyone explain to me why Axel was not able to answer all those emails about his retips (alias ''rebuilds'')? He got customers from the whole world thanks PR in this forum. I as his friend needed to wait for more than 3 months for ''my retips''. By van den Hul, Expert stylus, Ledermann the same ''state of affair''. This I call hypocritical behaviour of those who pretend to be against retips.
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There are without doubt individuals on this Analogue Forum that have acquired a in depth understanding of Cartridge Technologies and are committed to the source of the designs and their minute understanding of their designs. Another consideration is that design teams come together and separate heading off in other directions, possibly seeking new challenges or creating their own ventures, many revered Cartridges are now separate Brands from this type of historical happening. In a more modern world, freelance is a more common seen method of recruitment, and technicians are used for a particular project, maybe in some cases to bring in fresh thoughts and rejuvenate old staple philosophies. These types of individual are gathering a broader experience and have a developing skill set that is potentially able to produce a variety of configurations for materials used on a Cartridge that will deliver a very acceptable end performance. I use a Cartridge rebuild service that the Technician started out their career as a freelance and has worked within a design team on a few very well known Cartridges, that are very well received by a large number of users. This does not mean I am doing anything absolutely correct, it just means I am offering my Cartridge to an individual who has had hands on the early designs and production of Cartridges from the same brand, I find it quite reassuring, that the Technician is well versed and experienced in working with the Brands Technologies. Another consideration is that a Brand will usually design a Cartridge that will be a Parent Model, and there will be follow up Models produced using proportions of the Technologies found in the Parent Cartridge. I will suggest that this is for two reasons, One to be the foundation of a New Range of Models to be offered, and the other to produce a Sonic that covers a much broader spectrum of a listeners preferences, creating differences to assembly of materials found on the Parent Model, to counteract the deficiencies it has to meet a certain type of sonic trait. It is common to see a range of Cartridges where the assembly of parts differ slightly, be it a differing Stylus, Cantilever Material, Cant' Material / Stylus, Damper Material, Suspension Wire, or even a slight change to the Coil Windings. Technically these new produced models using the Parents Models Core Technologies are looking to myself, to be rebuilds of a particular model, albeit the Parent Model as being the start point. It is also known as a disclaimer by manufacturers that if a Cartridge is returned to be overhauled, that there might be differing components selected for the refurbishment works, as the originals may not be in stock any longer. This as an outcome will be to produce another variant of the Parent Model or Off Spring Model. What is for sure is that the returned Cartridge will not be the same assembly of materials as the Model when purchased new. If a Third Party Service with a good reputation, chooses to use a different Stylus, Cantilever / Stylus, Damper or a Suspension Wire, the work undertaken will have created a further variant of the Parent Model or its Off Spring Models. It is impossible to say if such a variant is a lesser performer than the pre worked on model. It is very possible to say the Model is no longer an identical model to the supplied model at the time of purchase, and this seems to be very similar to the disclaimer being made by a manufacturer. |
I purchased my current Ikeda Kiwame brand new - it was my third Ikeda after the 9 and 9EM. As new means I have not put many hours on it. It is in as new condition, not retipped, not rebuilt, not refurbished, as purchased ( new). I have only put a few hundred hours on it. I do not as a general rule buy second hand cartridges ( too many dodgy sellers on flea bay ). |
Actually my remark about terry also apply for dover but he certainly can't be blamed for the fact that N.Zeeland produces such a good wine. Also interesting the fact that he owns an second cart next to his many times ''rebuild'' Karat 13 D. One AS NEW (sic!) Ikeda Kiwame. Does ''like new'' mean ''second hand''? Like Lew ; more TT's than carts. Not to mention all those tonearms. |
Well obviously you do, because you seem obsessed with trying to delude yourself that retipping is the same as rebuilding. You appear to be completely unaware, or unable to accept that if a cartridge is a few years old, then refurbishing should include checking the dampers, checking for any mechanical or electrical issues and addressing them at the same time. You apparently have learnt nothing from JCarrs post above where he clearly explains that many of the cantilevers/styli can be unique or custom. configured for individual manufacturers. My Dynavector Karat Nova 13D is a prime example. The cantilever and styli cannot be obtained from anyone other than Dyanvector. In fact I have seen on this forum a well known member trying to flog a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D off with a home-brew aftermarket cantilever. It was no longer a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D as designed ( and looked like a small dog with it's lipstick hanging out ). It is none of your business what I pay for a manufacturers rebuild, but my decision on whether to rebuild is no different to anyone else What is the cost of rebuild ? Can I get a better cartridge for the same budget ? It is very simple. Its called cost benefit analysis. And contrary to your misplaced envy, no one needs to spend $1000's of dollars on a cartridge to get a great sound. Currently, despite having the Dynavecto Karat Nova 13D and Ikeda Kiwame ( both purchased new and as new ) I am currently enjoying my old Denon 103D ( bog standard, purchased new some years ago and not used much ). I'm still getting a better sound than most simply because of my system which has been carefully assembled over 30 years. Don't take my word for it - here's what a visitor said who bought an old DD off me ( who has a Stereophile Class A TT and several megabuck cartridges - https://darklantern.proboards.com/thread/721/direct-drive-thread
Good audio has nothing to do with price, its all about putting together a system properly integrated that is coherent, musical and transparent to source.
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terry, ''elementary logic'' has this form: ''If P then p&q'' This means: if the premise is true than also the deduced sentences p&q But if ''P is not true neither are p&g''. You specify your Premise ''ex post''. In JCarr explanation you now assume 3th of 4 th level styli and cantilevers. which are ordered by either Ogura or Namiki. My (arbitrary line) was $3000. This is my assumption about ( dover's) budget . What an ''average'' member can pay for an cart. So I deed provide my PREMISE IN ADVANCE but you deed not.. For ''my level'' of styli and cantilevers an retip with the combo is +./- 500 euro. Stylus solo is not easy to find because this retip is ,ore difficult to do. This explanation I got from my friend Axel with + 40 years experience with cartridge repair. The combo is more easy and also more expensive. He also got styli and cantilevers from either Ogura or Namiki. Think now again about my statement: ''why should an manufacturer do this job better''?
Who cares about +15 K carts with 4th level (diamond) cantilevers and ''gold plated'' styli (grin). |
@nandric I was speaking of high end cartridges, all or partially made by hand, not assembly line. As for assembly line cartridges, I do expect sample to sample variation, because of materials or tolerances - that is, serendipity. I retired from teaching, so I have no obligation to correct you. Nevertheless, I can point you to a good reference, Thouless's 'Straight and Crooked Thinking'. It's quite accessible. Then try Wittgenstein's 'Blue and Brown Books', less accessible, but not too hard.. |
Dear dover, We can use your ''dead horse'' as description for your 3 worn out styli which are ''rebuild'' by Dynavector for ''refreshement price''. of, say, half the retail price . This imply 50% of the just mentioned price. While you should know that 30% is their usual ''profit margin ''. As a former ''dealer'' you should know the prices. Well you could also do ''only the stylus retip'' by Axel for, say, 200 euro. But , as I mentioned by Marlene Ditrich , rich men or women are not well ''connected'' to the real world. There is also similar story about Marie Antoinette who was wondering why people do not eat cookie when they lack bread. You should ''keep your point'' by your remark about economic and budget. BTW I assume they in (Dutch) New Zeeland have TV? On the TV you can see the whole day Ads about prices. The not recognize terror on human kind.
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Your grandfather sounds like he was a very tolerant and forgiving man, in the circumstances. What an exceptionally dumb horse, though - perhaps it thought it was clever in enduring all those incentives simply to avoid the easy and common sense solution to occasionally trotting off to market. |
Speaking of dead horses - My grandfather had one horse when he built his orchard from remote scrub during the Great Depression. The horse was very obstinate - often when required to cart fruit off to the market it would not move. On some occasions no incentives worked - kicking, whipping, he even lit a fire between its legs once - had to put the fire out. Finally when the horse became elderly and quite distressed, my grandfather decided to put it out of its misery. After tethering the horse to a fence, he spend hours digging a deep hole, deep enough to keep the wild dogs from digging it up. Pulling out the shotgun, with a heavy heart he shot the horse -unfortunately even in death the horse had the last say. It fell the wrong way.
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**** Secondly, at no time would this information be concealed, it would be described correctly, Third Party Service Provider and Methods chosen, this would be revealed, whether during a demonstration or if the decision was made to sell.**** Absolutely true and unfortunately not always the case. A lesson learned the hard way. |
"Why should any manufacturer do this better than an retipper ." Um, having all the jigs? Extensive specialized experience with one configuration? Knowing the exact part with was used originally? Buying a lot of 100 and keeping 2? Having a lot more to lose? Maybe all of these? And please spare us the elementary philosophy. Others have read Frege.
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Dear dover, you still use the expression ''rebuild'' as the old Greek ''deus ex machina'' . An MC cart is ''composition'' of different parts. Your ''rebuild'' expression not one single one. There is this metaphor which state that ''whole'' is more than its parts. I was talking about styli and cantilevers which manufacturer as well retipper buy by Namiki or Ogura. JCarr mentioen ''levels of styli'' and cantilevers but those are also produced by the same Japanese Jewel companies. Gyger is out of business so one can say that those have monopoly position. Axel Schurholz, one of the best retipper, complained to me: ''the Japanese increased their prices with 100% without any consultation''. So he was forced to increase his own prices and had difficulty to explain his customer his price increase. We can assume that the ''first level'' of styli are those which are used in '''most cases'' and also that a retip with boron or sapphire cantilever + micro ridge stylus cost + 500 euro. I am not sure if this ''operation'' can be called ''rebuild'' but this ''operation'' consist in gluing this combo in the joint pipe (aka aluminum tube ) front side. Why should any manufacturer do this better than an retipper . If manufacturer would do retips they would need one extra employee for this job. But why should they when they buy those complete by mentioned Jewel companies? BTW ''a dead horse'''is not an ''descriptive name'' but an ''metaphor''.. The problem with metaphors is that everyone is entitled to his own interpretation. If one has a clear thought he does not need metaphors but express this thought in ordinary language. You obviously have difficulty to express your thoughts clearly . Problem with linguistics and logic?
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A great example of a "descriptive name" is the term "a dead horse". An example would be your fantasy that a retipper can rebuild a cartridge to better than new with a cantilever and/or stylus that resembles nothing like the original. To indulge your fetish within your budget I would suggest you invest in an Audio Technica AT95E and a Paratrace Stylus from the Expert Stylus Company. This will indeed meet your budgetary requirements. |
Selected parts was the ''argument'' for the AT Signet series ,also for for the ''Precept'' series as if AT nomenclature was not sufficient ''extendeded''. Some scientist complain about ''too many variables''. What about ''to many names''? Besides this imply that the parts are not equal . I avoid expression ''identical'' in order not to cause additional confusion. Those are, I think PR ''arguments''. Besides how are we supposed to know or check? . There was ever an linguistic theory about ''emotional meaning of words''. I think that expression ''original'' causes ''emotions''. But this theory lost from ''referential one'' which prefer names for the identity determination. But there are to many objects in the know universe, not to mention the parallel one, so we have not names for all of them. That is why we use ''descriptive names'' like ''iron horse'' for the first seen locomotive or ''the teacher of Alexander'' , etc, etc,.. We also use words to pretend something or other. So be careful by reading post in our forum.
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The supplied information by @jcarr about the Cartridge having been rebuilt to a condition that had shown to be Poor and there was non original parts in place is quite important, as there is a shift in the market to buying used Cartridges becoming more common, especially for the Higher Priced Items. For some using the used market, it is the most cost effective entrance into the creating the opportunity to acquire the Cartridges that have the Higher Price Tags. For another, it can quite simply mean a rare model has appeared and is the desired to own list. I have seen the latter happen very recently with a Ortofon Vienna, that surfaced in the used Market In either case, it really is a case for the Buyer to do their home work and research, to ensure they are not buying into a known Model that has undergone 'cut and shut' standards of remediation on a faulty model, Caveat Emptor is the most valuable guidance, a very helpful vendor who supplies accurate information to inquiries, is a bonus. How the above weaves itself into the description of an occurrence that @jcarr was exposed to is unknown, but which ever way, a party with no involvement was incorrectly labelled with the blame and this again, is unjust. I have no issue with not using non OEM parts in a Cartridge, as long as the design is seen to be for the better, and the decision is taken as a result of advise offered by a technician. Secondly, at no time would this information be concealed, it would be described correctly, Third Party Service Provider and Methods chosen, this would be revealed, whether during a demonstration or if the decision was made to sell. The Cartridge rebuild service I have used, will not work with a Cartridge that is showing evidence of not being an original spec model. The explained stance, is that the necessary investigation of whether the Cartridge can be repaired to a improved condition, and undoing any work that has been carried out, is a cost the service are not going to pass onto a Customer.
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JCarr mentioned Mori san as ''neglected innovator'' who got, despite of this ''neglect'' much attention from our Aussie who collect not only cartridges of both kinds but also Patek Philip watches. He wrote an ''poem'' about XL 88D (D= diamond). What is less known is Raul's ''poem'' about XL-44 l. So, it seems, Mori made ''rich man'' but also ''poor man'' cartridges. The innovation involved was ''8 form'' coil former and ''potting''. That is using some damping ''stuff'' inside the cart body to ''kill the resonaces''.. My friend and retiper Axel Schurholz described the ''stuff'' as ''glue'', Later on I found similar method of damping by Magic Diamond made by Reto Andreoli . The whole XL Sony series used the same generator but different cantilevers and styli. The cheapest kind by XL 44. So I posted my sample ( $350) to Axel and asked his best cantilever/stylus combo. Aka boron cantilever and ''nude shibata''. Well this ''poor man cart'' can compete with all my ''exotic kinds''. I also need to mention ''lyrical description'' by Raul about ''old and forgotten ADC 26/27''. I bought two for 300 euro. In my last sentence in my previous contribution I stated ''there are plenty excellent cartridges for modest prices''. Those are two examples. |
Four things. First, which exact parts, as in part numbers, did the manufacturer use? I'm an ignorant man, I don't know if this is an issue; but it sure is an issue with every other mechanical device I own. I'll bet that a Koetsu isn't going to sound the same after a generic stylus is fitted with a glob of glue in place of a precision fit. Second, some manufacturers rebuild from the ground up. That means getting a completely new cartridge for less than new cost. Third, some parts are no longer generally available, such as boron tubes and platinum magnets. Fourth, one can reasonably expect a high end manufacturer to choose high end parts. For example, the legend is that HP used to buy ultra-premium tubes by the gross, test, keep 3, and send 141 to the dumpster. That's why HP tubes cost more, and everybody paid up (after trying to make their 'scopes work with run-of-the-mill stuff). It was also said that the reason Mercedes bought Chrysler was so they could order materials in bulk and high-grade the best for their own use. So I'll be sending my cartridge back to the manufacturer, thank you. Not for psychological reasons, but to maintain their quality. |
After the lecture of our Professor JCarr and the ''synthesis'' by dover: ''it comes down to economics and budget'' we may try to ''reduce the complexity'' of our questions to some ''well- organized survay'', Retips in their ''cheap budget domain'' as contrapositioned to '''rebuild'' or ''refreshment by the manufacturer'' may form ''division line'' in the sense of what is affordable to whom. My guess ''division'' is at $ 3000 . Obviously arbitrary but those who can afford ''refreshment'' are ''other category'' of income earners. Think of those ''astronomical prices '' of MC cartridges, Those who can afford them will certainly not care about ''retips'' in their ''inferiour interpretation'' So ''retips'' are not their problem. The fact that there are pretty many producers which aim at the rich among us imply that those are not scarce, One need ro accommodate to new riches from the not expected former socialistic countries like China and Russia. We don't need to be envy, There are plenty excellent carts from both kinds for ''modest prices''.
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Hi wolfie, Kant wrote an book about ''pure reason'' and one about ''practical reason'', Your contribution is obvious about ''practical reason''. The one that ''counts'' for the most of us. You are probably to young to know who Marlene Ditrich was. The older among us admire her because of her legs. She was wondering why American women are so badly clothed, She stated : ''at present (1960) one can get decent cloths for ONLY $ 100000 ''. At present there are also carts for + 15 K... |
Dear jcarr, I am speechless. If one can believe this about an lawyer (grin). But you provided all ''entities'' with their identities as logic and scientific discussion presuppose. The most of us are laymen but willing to learn, You are a kind of our Professor and we all are proud to have you in our forum. Many thanks. |
@nandric , having cantilevers made covers a fairly wide range of possible options. At the simplest, Namiki / Ogura will deliver an off-the-shelf catalog design cantilever of the kinds that are published in their documentation or websites. Altering the stylus angle to match the cartridge's cantilever rake angle so that the final SRA will be around 90º can also be specified (Namiki / Ogura's catalog specs assume a standard cantilever rake angle of 20º). Everyone who buys from Namiki / Ogura has access to this level of cantilever build. But Namiki / Ogura also accommodate various degrees of customization. One such example is the Lyra-designed stylus that we have Ogura make for us. Although this stylus has non-proprietary aspects like 3um x 70um contact radii, we also designed in additional, less obvious features to help performance, therefore Ogura do not have the right to deliver the Lyra stylus to other clients. If Ogura wishes to do so, they can make their own 3um x 70um stylus and deliver it to their other clients (Robert Torlai in Italy claims to be using an Ogura-made 3um x 70um stylus), but not the Lyra design. Second level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies materials or methods outside of Namiki / Ogura standard choices, but are common or well-known enough that Namiki / Ogura are able to procure said materials / methods on their own, without requiring that these be provided by the client. This may include alloys, adhesives, suspension wires, coil formers, non-contact machining, heat treatments, cryogenics etc. Similar to the above, there may be places in the design where Namiki / Ogura would normally join one part to another with adhesives, however the client can alternatively specify crimps, press-fits, interference joints, welds, brazes etc. Again, the client's engineering drawings should include clear requests for specific joining methods, otherwise Namiki / Ogura's standard methods will be applied. Third level of custom cantilevers is where Namiki / Ogura do not have direct access to the materials specified by the client, and depend on the client to provide the materials. One example would be Ceralloy, which was the very first cantilever material that we used in production. This was a whisker-reinforced alloy that we had formulated and made, and we delivered the ingots to Ogura so that they could shape the individual cantilevers and fit them to the rest of the parts. (As an aside, some of Highphonic's A-series cartridges used a related material. Their formulation was somewhat different from ours, but it was the same class of whisker-reinforced alloys.) A similar situation applies to Lyra's chemically purified iron coil formers, MySonic's SH-μX coil formers, Satin's coreless spiral coils, and undoubtedly the micro-coils used in JVC's MC-L1 / L10 / L1000, with the client providing the materials (sometimes the completed part), which Namiki / Ogura build into the rest of the cantilever. Fourth level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies unique parts that Namiki / Ogura are unable to or cannot figure out how to make on their own. The one-piece diamond cantilever used in Sony's XL-88D (and derivatives) are an obvious example. In such cases, the client will provide know-how and advice, guide Namiki / Ogura to suitable fabrication equipment, and otherwise collaborate with Namiki / Ogura so that the parts can be made successfully. There are other categories, but those above are the major ones. hope this helps, jonathan PS. Regarding the joint-pipes which are the most common means by which replacement / alternative cantilevers are fitted, they are not present in all cartridge designs. For example, Takeda-san of Miyabi is one well-known designer who disliked the mechanical filtering effect of adhesive joints, therefore a number of his models (and the Fuugas) eschewed joint pipes in favor of seamless metal alloy cantilevers, even at the cost of higher effective mass. Similar thinking as on Sony's XL-88D, but expressed in a different way. PPS. These days some online vendors selling used cartridges do not bother indicating if a cartridge is in original condition or has been retipped by someone else. We were recently returned a Lyra by way of WAM Engineering, in which we were taken to task for inadequate stylus alignment. The cartridge should have had an Ogura-made cantilever; it had a Namiki instead. The owner had purchased the cartridge second-hand, unaware that it was a retip. PPPS. @mijostyn , in addition to cantilever / stylus block alignment issues, it is also possible for the stylus' groove contact surfaces to be twisted or misaligned within the diamond block. In such cases concentrating on the alignment of the diamond block to the cantilever will not help very much. |
Some cartridges have no manufacturer alive anymore, and styli are nowhere to be found. The Micro Acoustics 3002 that I have is just such a cartridge. Maintaining all original parts is not an option. Mine has a snapped beryllium cantilever. So it will go to a retipper. He can fuse on a boron rod to the beryllium rod stump, or an aluminum alloy, or sapphire, or zirconium, titanium, pretty much my choice, but not beryllium unless I have a donor cantilever. Tips? Pretty much the only limiting factor is price. Boron/MicroRidge would be the closest to original. My choices are to wait forever for a stylus to come along, or have it repaired/retipped. This stuff about only having the manufacturer do a repair is a bunch of bull hockey. Often, the reputable hand craftsmanship of a retipper can get tolerances better than the factories have the time for.
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pinda, the so called ''free market'' exist only in economic books. Take for example Holland the ''champion of free market''. Each item that cross the border means 12% import duty + 21% VAT. Beryllum cantilevers are not available in ordinary sense. Only those retipers who have them in stock can provide them. If those are outside of E.Union ... You get the picture. The so called ''free choice'' in a myth. ''Possible choices'' assume ''impossible kind''. So your ''inductive reasoning'' aka from your individual situation to general statement will not do. The same apply for our beloved dover. One can much better formulate some hypothetical statement which we can see as ''assertion'' from which deductions can be made. Then reason in ''usual logic'': if the assertions are not true then deduced statements are also not true. |
Dear dover, Not everyone can move to New Zeeland to enjoy clean air, nature , holy water and exceptional wines. You mentioned ''cost'' but without numbers. So we have no idea what your ''refreshments'' cost. For ''us'' the commons 500 euro for an RETIP with cantilever+ stylus is ''mucho dollares''. For this kind of money one can get an decent MM as Raul has shown. But you are not specific about parts and their IDENTITI while logic state : no identity without entity. Aka the ''classical objects''. One can also state that MC consist of different parts which need to be put together. Each of those parts assumes its own identity. Say ''the moving parts'' consist of ''joint pipe'' (aka aluminum tube) in which front side cantilever stylus combo is glued and on its back side coils and tension wire are fastened . Those are moving parts while tension wire connects those moving parts with generator which does not move. Now does Dynavector produce its own styli + cantilevers or are those ''simply'' bought by Namiki or Ogura? Mentioning ''micro ridge'' means Namiki stylus. Does Dynavector ''glue'' those with very little glue in their own cantilevers? If so what is the difference ''against'' common retiper? The amount of glue? I thought about this young man who was very careful to inform the parents of his girl friend: ''your daughter is little bit pregnant''.
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A Cartridge becomes unique by the selection of materials used for the assembly. In the material selection there many be a common part used as a Cantilever>Stylus, that is sourced from a dependable Producer in the Supply Chain for the procurement of the product. As I stated the choices when using the Third Party 'retiper' service are not limited to only Two Brands Products, there are further options to be considered. It is not for me to say whether considering such a option for Cartridge is correct/incorrect. My own experience has been from choosing a not so commonly offered material such as Beryllium, where reliance of a assessment of the new parts in use, has been drawn from a personal subjective evaluation and a groups subjective evaluation, is that this method has been very well received and there is a noticeable improvement over a Original Spec' Cartridge. In my case the veer away from maintaining original parts has been very rewarding. The OP's statement below appears to suggest that when a Third Party 'retiper' service is used, the options on choices are limited to the the use of Two Brands Products only , as seen in the underscored section below. My experience and point being made is that this is not the case when discussing options on a Service from a Third Party ' retiper', the options are not going to be limited to this. Albeit that it does require the need to commence in a dialogue with a technician to discover the options that can be offered. The second most important concern for myself, is whether a Service has the Experience and Skill Set to produce the optimized product as part of the process being undertaken. My experience as a 'layman only' of investigating a variety of Cartridge Rebuilds, if the information viewed is bona fide, has shown Cartridges after short usage and needing to undergo a repair, that are in a condition that does not suggest Quality Control was a paramount concern when the Cartridge was produced. These observations do not endear one, to the idea of entrusting manufacturers that have a good proportion of the Market Place. My money goes in the direction where I feel it is to be best served. By the so called ''retips'' the assumption is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts'' by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura.
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Nandric - it comes down to economics and budget. For the least cost you can get an aftermarket retipper to insert another stylus. For a few more dollars you can send it to the manufacturer and receive back effectively a new cartridge built to the manufacturers specifications. In many instances manufacturers will incorporate any new developments. For example my Dynavector on the last rebuild got a micro ridge stylus instead of the Ogura - it is a vastly better cartridge than when it was originally purchased new. Even if you paid say 60-70% of the purchase price for a "new" cartridge one could say it is good value. If you feel the price is still too high I like to pose the question - how much does a golf club membership cost, and yet you can use the cartridge everyday rain or shine.
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