''Óriginal parts'', ''identity '' and ''retip'' conundrum

pindac, we all know the rules. By PayPal complaint  procedure

sufficient argument is that the item is not as described. As is also

known (?) that the warranty of PayPal is at the cost of seller. The

money he got is blocked till buyer report to have received the item

in good order. I am not sure if you are still ''against retips'' (grin).

A customer is free to make their own assessment as to how they wish to receive a product they are considering purchasing.

Considering can also require a allocation of time to be allowed for.

It can be a short duration, to confirm the intent to purchase, such as hit the Buy it Now tool with no prior inquiry, through to making inquiries to see if the item is worthy of a continued consideration.

I would consider a Cartridge if an interest was present, if it was a vintage item, offered with a proof, a complete overhaul of all critical parts in the assembly have been exchanged for equivalent parts to ensure the longevity of the function is addressed. I would not consider this Cartridge a mimic of the Manufactured Model.

A vintage Cart' with a 'retip' only, that equates to a Styli being replaced, would not be a item of attraction to myself.

A Cart' with a short period of time behind it, from when it was a New Purchase Item,  if offered with a 'retip' only, that equates to a Styli being replaced, would present itself as an Item I would consider, the more learnt from inquires made, about the 'retip' service and the Cart's previous usage, would underpin the idea the Cart' is worth considering, when the returned reports are meeting the expectations I be wanting to have for the Cart'.

In the same way a Seller can choose a Buyer if interest in a item is high, or refuse an offer from a buyer, the Buyer can refuse to continue dealing with a seller or decide to not pursue the purchase of the item any further, all seems quite fair for both parties. 

While I do remember many Serbian jokes I remember only two

German. The first is: ''if theory and practice coincide then both

must be false''. The second is about philosopher: ''there is nothing

more easy than to refute an philosopher. One only need to read

some other''. 

The argument  about philosopher is known in English ''vocabulary''

as ''straw man'' argument. Those are also  usual in Serbia.

 

The ''oldest paradox'' is about the Greek liear. The Greek who stated:

''all Greek are liears''. 

But you missed my point which is ''still a goat'', That is our believe in

our own ''assertions'' . Those are, say, linguistic . But identification of

objects in extra-linguistic reality is not linguistic. So ''óriginal parts'' are

not what we believe but what we can identify as such. 

This is my ''point'' regarding ''retips'' as something totally different from

''rebuild '' or ''refreshment'' by which no parts which are ''rebuild'' are

mentioned. Assumption that  every manufacturer uses his own ''unique''

styli and cantilevers is based on ''sand'' because all get the styli and

cantilevers from the same Jewel companies Ogura and Namiki. This

means that this assumption is refuted. But as was the case by ''our

Serbian joke'' the other hunter stated '''still a goat''. for the ''flying 

object''.  The people  still ask the question : ''is this cart retiped?''

and if so refuse to buy ''poor thing''. Religions work in the same way.

Dear Nandric,

Your joke didn't bother me at all. However, I didn't find anything funny in it.

Your comment about Serbs did. I don't know how you could have missed it, but... 

If Serbs are pigheaded and you are a Serb, then you must have a gene for pigheadedness too. 

This is my last post here so I would like to thank you for sharing all your deep thoughts and the knowledge on these forums throughout the years. Obviously, you are an expert for that and any other matter. Thank you for teaching us all including Jonathan. I am sure he can learn a lot from the wealth of knowledge about analog that you have and he doesn't.

I apologize to Jonathan for using his name without permission and everybody else for intruding into this conversation. 

All the best,

LectronJH50

 

pindac, I mentioned barter as basics in the sense that countries exchange

commodities and services among each other and not money. Money

is the measure of value but not a value on its own. That is why Serbian

income is 500 euro pro months and Dutch minimal income 1200 euro.

One should look at clearance to grasp who are debtors and creditors.

BTW can you write in numbers American debts? Can you explain the

curious fact that despite all kinds of taxes all countries are in debts?

I know the concepts of most currencies, I have a reasonable understanding of how commodities were a currency, especially amassed arable crop and how this evolved into coin through to present day, with digital currencies such as a Debit System and the New Kids on the attempting to find their way through to be recognised as a currency, such as Crypto and other Cyber commodities.

Cyber Currencies are the future, but only will happen, when the established organisations have got the methods under their control and are at a place in the Market, where there is access to huge kick backs from the transactions.

Banks under the approval oof Governments will most likely convert non bank created Cyber Currencies to their own, and the Banks own Cyber Currency and Converted Currencies will be accepted as a legal tender for every day trading.

I'm sure their are Governments quite keen to get their proportion of the uplift value of such currencies that are locked away from their scrutiny. The Banks will i'm sure be informing the authorities of all Crypto Currency Conversions, of which some will be of great interest to a Governments Internal Revenues Department.

Those who bought their 10 - 100 Crypto Coin Lots in the early introduction period around 2009/10 at approx' $7-10 per coin and have maintained their access to Secure Storage Vaults, will have a substantial pot of gold to release into the mainstream Market, even after a hefty Taxation that will most likely manifest, when the Banks are involved with exchanges.

I'm sure and predict, that this new period of a digitised currency, will see a time when certain Cartridge Models have record breaking price tags and are only offered when Cryto/Cyber Currency is the used legal tender.

Now that is one more unique experience for the small groups of aspiring elitists that are manifesting in all forums, and will again, i'm sure have its own thread on certain forums, where the difficulty to contribute due to not being able to experience the practice will be quite separating, nothing like being in the exclusivity club eh ! 

I'll get there with my usual methods, I'll sit tight and have Searches in place for a used Crypto Purchased all exclusive Cartridge in need of a repair.

If the price is fair, I'll send the acquired Cart' to a 'retip' service where the only concern is for the Cart' and if all goes swimmingly well join the exclusive thread as a impoverished contributor with a rejuvenated Crypto Cart being used, the fall out should be quite amusing.    

           

Pindac, Which theory of money do you presuppose? You are talking about

currency  ever heard about barter? 

A Cartridge is a Product produced to be sold and is just one item available from multiple items that a individual might need to consider purchasing.

It is not a Product such as, buying or leasing a home, Gas, Electricity, Water or Food, as these are essentials and are extremely valuable to living person. When expenditure is laid out for the acquisition of these items, a fundamental requirement for the health and welfare of an individual is being met.

All purchases require an outlay of some kind, of which the majority is going to be paid for with an outlay of a currency.

The need to acquire a possession of a currency in the modern world and for the world for approx' 4000 Years, has to been for the general population to achieve a method to produce a form of currency.

For many of the population, in the so called 'good times' the currency being achieved has been of a quantity that allows for the purchase of the essentials and very little more.

Within all populations there are then individuals that have gained the capacity to have acquired much more currency than another, and use such increases in available currency, to have broader choices on how to acquire non essential items, in many cases these items might need to be produced to their specific demands.

When currency is available to an individual that enables the acquisition of non essential Items, that are for beyond the point of being required to meet an individuals basic needs, it can be suggested with a conviction that such items are able to come with a further label of being and 'absolute luxury'.

An 'absolute luxury' being something that is gained through an excessive outlay of currency and very little is acquired to enhance the individuals unadulterated essential needs. 

Hence, the Cartridge is a required tool when a acquisition is made for an individual to carry out replays of LP's, the Cartridge is one device in an assembly of devices that will be needed to make the replay of a LP be realized.

The Cartridge when purchased, is usually only the want of an individual, it is not so common for a group or family to share the interest in the acquisition. When a Cartridge is purchased at the lowest price for one that can offer a reasonable  function, especially not known to cause damage to the Hard Medium, the outlay required for certain individuals with an access to low levels of a currency only, will prove to be a substantial outlay for 'absolute luxury' that is by design a fragile device and which by design is to deteriorate to being a device that is best no longer used and taken out of service.

Cartridges are an item that are available to be acquired at a currency that can be seen to match the price of a device that many families would dream to own, and  where all members within the family would agree the benefits would be valuable to the whole. 

Items that fall into the category of 'absolute luxury' also have a 'Dark Side' the influence of the want to acquire an 'absolute luxury' can impact quite intensely on the psyche of an individual. An 'Obsessional Behaviour' is most likely at the forefront, and the Selfishness of the want of the individual will govern the decisions that are in the pipeline awaiting to be made.

The 'Obsessional Behaviour' can create a pattern of behaviour from the individual that is now perfect for their appointment to become a prey of the Market Place to be captured.

The fair lore has been granted, we will accept returns within 30 Days is usually enough for the hound to be released from the Slip. The first trick the hound will use to lure its prey in, is to guide the quarry to the Spiel from the Marketing, the hound will be intent on having the quarry, be able to recite the offerings with great accuracy, the reviews will be next, the route to these will be discovered very close to the latter end of the Spiel, such content, from such trusted reporters will be analysed and the quarries mind will slowly become totally fixated, and honed to the condition, that the quarry is oblivious to the hound gaining the position to move into the final stages of the pursuit and strike at their prey.

At this stage, it is only a few more carefully selected strides that ensnares the quarry in the bite of the Hound.

I really think, the Serbian along with any other Nationality across the Globe who has a access to little currency over a long duration, will be concerning themselves about much more important outlays for their disposable currency, such as the priorities of the essentials to be acquired with the currency.

Forums are two edge swords, and one edge does allow for an individual to express their 'Obsessional Behaviour' for the desire to own items for beyond the realms of being essential. There is regularly seen an element of elitism, and commonly seem notifications, of having been able to acquire a certain level of a device that is assembled with materials that carry the label exotic and are knwn to be aimed at a certain demographic within a population.

Boron is not so exotic any longer it is widely chosen material, it can be obtained by individuals that cross over into differing demographics. Hence, why Diamond or other Gemstones are on the table for discussion as an alternative material, these offer the perception of being a harder to realize material for the common user of a Cartridge.   

SKYANALOG Cartridges are using Boron on their cheapest models, which for many will prove to require a not too concerning amount of currency to be parted with to acquire a model which is slowly winning favour in many European LP replay systems.              

 If the reports are to be trusted, it is looking like Dyna's, Hana's and Phasemation are being replaced by the SKYANALOG Models.  

While I was fighting against the ''myth'' or ''original parts'' I am now

confronted with an compatriot from Serbia as well an Kantian of

''free will'' an ''consumer free choice'' by decisions to either use

''retip'' or ''rebuild'' or ''refreshment'' choice . Not to mention the

choice to buy, say, 18 K for an Koetsu with diamond cantilever.

Now consider my compatriot . The average income in Serbia is

500 euro. This means that there lower incomes. Well our pindac

should explain how one person with such income can pay, say , retip 

with boron cantilever and micro ridge stylus for 600 euro? Not to

mention ''rebuild'' or ''refreshment choice'' which are totally unknown

reg, the cost because even Dover refused to state what his  3 x' rebuild

cost was. So my contribution about ''meaning'' and ''reference'' was 

totally ''fruitless''. The connection with reality is totally lost. 

 

 

Dear JCarr, As I mentioned in my answer to pindac in the context of

''rules and exceptions''  the ordinary meaning of ''generalisation'' is

''not all x are such and such because there are exceptions.. Alas

logical interpretation of quantors ''all '' and ''some'' is different:

''for all x F& Gx '' means that if there is one exception the statement is

                            not true''

While for ''some x Fx&Gx  is true if there is  at least one x which satisfy

                             conditions F&G.

Alas quantor ''most'' has no logical interpretation. So we have no other

option than use ''most'' as in ordinary language or by ''medical use''.

Say ''smoking causes in most cases cancer'' instead ''smoking causes

cancer''. I am am exception while there are people who have never

smoked and despite of this fact were killed by long cancer..

In ''your case''' Lyra is exception regarding use of styli and cantilevers

because Lyra is able to provide Ogura with boron as well order specific

styli for its cartridge. One other question is why Lyra is capable  to

provide boron to Ogura instead of ''other way round''? My guess is

because of monopoly position and the fact that sapphire is much

cheaper. If I remember well you explained to me and others cantilevers

differences years ago. Aluminium kind has the advantage that the

stylus can be pressure fitted while other have other advantages, +

that you deed not like ''the sound of sapphire''' (grin).

 

 

 

Rade, Jokes should be not interpreted very seriously or literal.  Besides

the fact that you have never heard this joke does not mean that there is

no such joke in Serbia. I am probably much older Serbian than you are

and as such know many more jokes than you. 

mijostyn, for ''word hairspplitter' the right forum is about dictionary. There

you can find any knowledge you like.

As a customer, the level of service accepted by an individual is their choice.

If one wants an inspection carried out of the Styli from an experienced technician that is fine, if the assessment claims the Styli is Good for a extended usage, then the customer decides how they want their Cartridge returned, in a condition that will support an extended use, or while its on the Work Bench, supply a new styli with a full life ahead of it. 

Obviously if the Styli is spent a suggestion of a further inspection of the Cartridges overall suggestion might be the inspection method proposed by the technician.

Again what ever decisions the customer is to make will be theirs only, as it is their money to be parted with.

What really matters is how much the technician knows about the Cartridge being inspected and how much the technicians assessment is trusted by the customer.

If the aim is to have a particular Cartridge produced through additional works undertaken, that will be a working model that is a accurate mimic of the supplied donor Cartridge, it seems to myself that it is quite important for the technician to be familiar with the New Version of the Donor Cartridge.

If the aim is to receive a returned Cartridge that is a functioning model with a long user life in front of it, then the workmanship of the technician, it seems to myself, that having a trust in the engineers work and selections of parts will be the important factor.

Foor the latter there are known services that can offer this with little concerns raised for the service to be received.

The former is looking most likely that the person with a full understanding of the Cartridge is a harder individual to find, especially with the knowledge of the Cartridge with a low hours nearly new model.

J Carr has made himself known as being a candidate that is with the capability to  achieve this with the Lyra Brand Products.           

I am a Serb and I have never heard your "joke".

Your comment about Serbs may be offensive.

Rade

There are many stories about hunters. This one come from my native

Serbia. Two friends are hunting not unicorns but everything in existence

which is eatable. BTW Serbians are known as very pigheaded. I left

because  one more would be unbearable One of the two pointed out

to the hill and stated: ''look there an wild goat'', The other: ''man you

must be blind, you should consult an optician. It is an an eagle !''  So

the ''arguments pro and contra'' continued till the  object  in casu'' started

to fly. ''Aha, see you an eagle''! The other: ''still an goat''. 

Some may recognise the argument by our beloved Dover: ''still rebuild''.

After 3 x in succession worn out stylus of  his  precious Dyna 17 still

rebuild while anybody can ask the question why rebuild of, say, generator,

damper, coil, joint pipe and cantilever while ONLY THE STYLUS needs

replacement???  And replacement of ''stylus only'' is called in usual

parlance RETIP. 

 

@jcarr 

           Thank you for your input and making it known that the Lyra Cartridge Brand are able to make the parts selected from the time of the design and final production of their models available to be used on returned Cartridges for a very long period following the Models release.

It is quite comforting to know that if a used Lyra was purchased by myself, it can be returned to a function that will be very closely or even a match to the model when purchased new.

In relation to the 'Ceralloy' used on the earlier designs from the Lyra Company, would Lyra offer a rebuild of a Cartridge from this era, to be offered to a customer where a 'equivalent ' Cartridge will be the proposal for the outcome of the rebuild and where a technicians assessment of the alternative parts to be used would qualify the term 'equivalent ' as being the correct description ?

If the Rebuild did take place, would the end product produced, become a bespoke version of the model with the 'Ceralloy' material used in the design ?

From my end, I would not have any concerns about the Bespoke Design produced, my experience has shown this outcome can be very advantageous to the end user.        

 

@nandric , reripped? I do believe that is a digital term. Are you converting?

I also think you need to delve a little farther into neuroscience. You are assuming terrry is right handed.

@nandric
>The reality is that all styli and cantilevers are not produced by manufacturer but by, say, two Japanese Jewel companies.

This is more likely to be true for styli, less so for cantilevers and the other components that comprise the cantilever assembly. In my earlier post on this thread (dated 12-24-2021), I listed multiple examples of how components can be (and are) provided to Namiki / Ogura by cartridge manufacturers. Namiki / Ogura do not have the right to resell components or materials provided to them by a cartridge manufacturer (or designed by a cartridge manufacturer) unless there is a written agreement that allows this.

To add to the previous examples, when there was a shortage of boron a few years ago, some companies who depended completely on the two Japanese Jewel companies for supplies of boron were forced to cease production of certain products <https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jico-sas-is-currently-out-of-production.500921/>. The two Japanese Jewel companies did not have boron production facilities, and were therefore incapable of replenishing their inventories unless they could first find alternative material suppliers (which took time).

However other companies, including Lyra, possessed their own inventory of boron, and were able to supply the two Japanese Jewel companies with cantilever materials so that production remained unaffected.

Although the angle at which the stylus is mounted to the cantilever does not depend on the cartridge manufacturer supplying key components to Namiki / Ogura, it should be tailored to the rake angle that the cantilever will assume relative to the LP, so that the dynamic SRA (with VTF applied, and playing an LP) becomes 90º.

For example, if the target cantilever rake angle is 20º, the stylus-to-cantilever angle should be 70º; a 21º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 69º, a 22º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 68º, a 23º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 67º, etc. IOW, the stylus mounting angle plus the cantilever rake angle should always sum to 90º.

Although many cartridges have cantilever rake angles in the vicinity of 20º~25º, there are cartridges with cantilever rake angles of 28º (Ortofon) or 30º (Avid). Fitting a stylus mounted for use with a 20º cantilever rake angle in a cartridge designed for a 30º cantilever rake angle will cause a 10º SRA error.

This is why cartridge manufacturers typically specify customized stylus mounting angles to suit the body or cantilever rake angles of a given cartridge design.

That said, it is possible for a retipper to accomplish much the same thing - by either stocking a full range of cantilever angles (60º:30º, 61º:29º, 62º:28º, 63º:27º, 64º:26º, 65º:25º, 66º:24º, 67º:23º, 68º:22º, 69º:21º, 70º:20º, and this is ignoring vintage cartridge models which may have had cantilever rake angles of around 15º), or individually installing each stylus onto its cantilever once the recipient cartridge is in hand, so that the final, dynamic SRA becomes 90º.

Regarding rebuilds vs. retips, let me first state that different manufacturers (especially those whose native tongue is not English) may use the same words to mean different things. In fact, some companies may use the terms 'rebuild' and 'retip' interchangeably.

Personally, I consider 'retips' as meaning replacements of the stylus (and cantilever, if it is required), only. These are mostly performed by non-original retippers, since the original manufacturer is likely to prefer a full rebuild (reasons and explanations given below).

After a cartridge is played for hundreds or thousands of hours, more than just the stylus or cantilever are likely to become worn, bent or broken. Suspension wires are prone to take on a permanent set, dampers frequently lose resilience or harden, joint-pipes can bend or corrode, coil wires can short out or break open, signal output pins can become bent or twisted so that they spin freely, magnets can lose strength, screwhole threads can become stripped, polepieces can corrode or crack, anodizing and plating can come off cartridge bodies, and so on.

A rebuild is when the original manufacturer performs a 100% replacement of all components that are likely to see any wear or degradation. Rebuilds are what manufacturers prefer, since the cartridge will be returned to as-new, perfectly functioning condition. And since it takes longer to tear down a cartridge and send out all of the pieces for deep cleaning / rewinding / replating, often the manufacturer will replace the used cartridge with a brand-new one.

Rebuilds also give the manufacturer a chance to incorporate any improvements which may have been developed after the recipient cartridge was produced - for instance when Lyra made a revised 'i' spec Titan, any Titan that was returned to us for a rebuild was automatically upgraded to the 'i' spec (unless the owner specifically requested otherwise).
We are following the same policy today with the Lambda spec Atlas and Etna - any Atlas or Etna returned to us for a rebuild will be upgraded to the Lambda spec, unless the owner specifies against the conversion.

@pindac regarding 'equivalent parts', again I cannot speak for other manufacturers, but Lyra can perform 100% authentic rebuilds for any Lyra-branded cartridge that was made from around the year 2000 and later. No equivalent parts involved or needed.

For earlier models that used 'Ceralloy' cantilevers, although we originally bought kilograms of the metal, we either have exhausted our inventory or are very close to running out.
My opinion is that a manufacturer should acquire at least enough inventory of exotic non-standard materials or key components to support servicing for at least 10 years, preferably longer. The exception would be if the product was specifically offered as a limited-production run, where it was understood by both manufacturer and buyer that as supplies of key materials / components were depleted, production would cease. Such cases are quite rare.

hope this helps

Dear pindac, I assume you are familiar with the saying about ''rules

and exceptions''. I ''covered'' the case of retippers and their ''possible''

stock of not anymore produced styli (Geiger, VDH, etc.). There is

no evidence that manufacturer also keep ''old styli'' in their stock.

General statements, so to speak, don't cover all possible cases.

My intention was to dismiss prejudice about retips. Think of new styli

in comparison with, say, elliptical kind. My experience is that new styli

are much better. Besides ''old kind'' can be worn out. 

As the subject is to be focused on Styli, Cantilevers and Original, the proposal that a Styli and Cantilever assembly is a product from a limited number of Companies that are considered being a Supplier of the parts for a Manufacturers Supply Chain in the procurement of the overall items to be assembled, does seem to have a relevance in todays Manufacture for a Cartridge, even though it is known there are Cartridge Manufacture Companies and 'Retip' Services that as apart of a present Production or Refurbishment Service, offer a Bespoke Styli >Cantilever assembly that is not an assembly produced by the limited number of Companies that are being referred to.

For the Original Element, the further back in time one will go to review the variations across the Cartridge Models that were offered in a Market Place, where a much larger range of options were to be encountered. 

There will be many descriptions supplied by the Manufacturer that will suggest that there is a Bespoke Part to be found in a particular Cartridge, and a part that was most likely produced by a specialist with access to the materials selected or even a in house assembly of the selected parts.

Then there is the other consideration where a design is evolving and Parts are being included and deselected , either on paper or after thorough assessment through demonstrations and testing.

Parts used at the design stages and deselected, would still warrant a status of a Original Part, but not the part selected for the model to be the,  'Piggy, that went to market'.

Is it not possible that when a challenge is made by a owner of a quite old model of Cartridge, where there is a rejection of the idea of using a Third Party 'retip' Service,

The challenge is due to the idea the 'retip' Service is going to use parts that are not related to the Cartridge Parts used in the era of production, and the most likely place to acquire these parts is with the original manufacturer, or at the least get a sympathetic service supplied from the Manufacturer that is considering the Cartridges age and uniqueness due to the Vintage.

From experience of taking the time to read the terms of the Service offered by a Manufacturer for their refurbishment service, bear in mind I have not read all Manufacturer's terms, I will say once more the used word 'equivalent' is the get out of jail card.

There is not going to be a Cartridge produced that is a match in parts used to the model being refurbished, there is going to be parts used for the refurbishment, that are assessed, hopefully by an adept technician to be an 'equivalent' part. There will be a function parity only.  In a 'Nutshell' one more Bespoke Refurbishment is produced of a Cartridge.

This Bespoke Refurbishment from a Manufacturer or from a 'retip' Service if both carried out by adept technicians will most likely have very closely match similarities as the modern supply chains are ubiquitous in their presence and do not seem to be an exclusive entity, hence the offered parts end up being available to numerous parties.

@nandric  good to see you back, with your learned descriptions and following mind boggle to boot.              

 

  

 

''Meaning'' and ''reference''.

One need to understand an sentence or statement to grasp  its

meaning. But the so called ''reality'' is not linguistic . That is why 

one also speaks about ''extra -linguistic reality''. The so called

''correspondence with reality''  is needed for an statement to be true,

Well the assumptions or assertions about ''original parts''  are

based on meaning but not on reality. The reality is that all styli and

cantilevers are not produced by manufacturer but by, say, two

Japanese Jewel companies. So all manufacturer as well retippers

get those from the same source. The expression ''original'' may have

''emotive meaning'' but this meaning does not correspond with

reality. Besides ''original parts'' presuppose identification which is

not linguistic but ''realistic'' in the empirical  sense. In this sense the

expression ''original''  make no sense, 

 

best-groove, all information in this forum is for free. If you and other

want amusement in addition for free you and the others should look

elsewhere.

OMG  

best-grove, English grammar does not specify the connective ''IS"

between Subject and Predicate in an sentence

But logic does:

1, Substitution of an object under one notion (nandric is human)

2. Inclusion relation between two classes or sets the smaller under

    bigger. Horses are 4 legs animals. Americans are part of the

    world  population.

3, Identity relation : a=b; 2+2 = 4

4  exsitence (being) ''God is''

 

Which ''IS'' do you have in mind?

edgewear, Deed you ever try to sell an retiped cart? As you state 

you are very satisfy with retips done by Van den Hul. Van den Hul

was obviously proud of his work and made his inscription on the

cover plate. This may be seen as act of courage (aka nothing to

hide). But the owners of his carts with his retips can't sell them

because ''retips'' are  considered to be inferior in comparison

with ''rebuild'' or ''refreshed kind'' with the argument of ''original''

versus ''not original'' styli. That is to say that manufacturer use their

 own unique styli. This however is an myth. Manufacturer buy their

styli as do retipers by the same producer. Curiously you are

contradicting  your own ''pro retip'' position by suggesting more

shapes than can be proven. On those shapes patents are claimed

as Van den Hul and Gyger demonstrate. Besides ''original parts''

imply their identification which is connected with identity . Even for

logician an difficult ''subject''.

I try to reduce complexity of identity to ownership relation because

everyone knows what ownership means as well how one can prove

to own something. This means proving one to one identity between

owner and object of ownership. Both must have their own identity.

''Subjective valuation''?  The old Roman already stated ; de gustibus

non disputantum est. 

Besides what sense would asked advises have?  

@nandric
elegant intervention; we may communicate with smoke messages for future topics to limit understanding to Cheyenne and Navajo only.

Cir di capimi: no tu puedis cjacarà come che ti par se no tu puedis la a cagà! and now translate the sentence into italics for me.

Dear Nandric, if only it were true that forums like this have the task of providing objective information. It’s all subjective opinions and beliefs, like everywhere else in social media. The folks with real knowledge have mostly left the ‘building’ amidst all the nonsense, a few exceptions notwithstanding. Too many egos making too much noise. Sad but true.

Your assumption that there are only a few jewel companies providing styli is most likely correct. We tend to forget how small our little universe really is, so it’s not a market that could sustain many more competitors. Yet it’s hard to imagine that Ogura and Namiki are the only ones, even with Gyger out of the picture as some have suggested. As you asked elsewhere, who would be making those Replicant 100 or vdHul styli now?

But even this assumption doesn’t tell us very much. For example, the Ogura PA tip comes in different shapes. Apart from the retipped KC 200 I own originals of Mark Levinson MLC-1 and Red Rose Petal (both versions of Miyabi Standard) and Miyabi MCA, all of which supposedly adopted the same Ogura tip. Yet none of these have the exact same shape. I have it on good authority that Ogura used no less than a dozen different shapes, which apparently were all marketed as PA. It seems Takeda san was prone to experimentation in search of the perfect sound and used several of these shapes. So in this case there were several ‘original parts’ and ‘identities’. So what?

As a music listener I don’t really care as long as it sounds good. I’m certainly no expert but I have no reason to believe there is any special magic involved in (re)building a cartridge, only human creativity, experience and craftsmanship. For the most part(s) the sonic result will depend on the designer’s or (re)builder’s level of expertise. If you find such a person, you can pretty much depend that they’ll do a good job in respecting and perhaps even improving the cartridge’s sonic performance. Exchanging notes on the work of these experts is probably more useful than establishing how many sources they can turn to for parts.

So let’s for a moment return to the example of the Kiseki. It’s evident that vdHul did a wonderful job with my sample, but that was done many years ago. When it requires the inevitable retip would I send it to the newly established Kiseki brand for reasons of so called ‘originality’? No way! These new Kiseki’s are most likely not designed and built by the same person who did the old ones and based on the reported quality control issues they would probably ruin it.

edgewear, My problem? I addressed forum problems with self-appointed

''experts'' or ''authorities'' who have no idea what they are talking about.

Is the task of this forum not to provide objective information?

In my introduction of this thread I try to explain which assumptions are

made which are not true. That is ''if premise are not true'' how can

derivation from those premise be true? 

My ''general statement'' or assertion was that only two jewel company

produce styli such that manufacturer as well retipers get they styli

from the self source. JCarr also named only those two. But I also

started the other thread about Replicant in which my own assumption

is questioned. Alas we were not able to discover who produces those

styli as well if those styli are available to all manufacturer and retipers. 

There is old (Roman?) saying ; '' in the land of the blind ,one-eyed is

king''.  You obviously missed my points . I hope you can ''see now''. 

 

 

@nandric what exactly is your problem? Surely you don’t want to let those ‘what is the (absolute) best?’ folks get on your nerves? It’s a way to pass the time, but a futile and pointless (pun intended) discussion.

In case you’re wondering, I’m with you on the potential worth of retippings or refurbishings by others than the manufacturer. Who cares if it isn’t ‘original’ anymore? The sonic result should be the ultimate arbiter. From my own experience with over 40 different MC cartridges, I’m not ashamed to admit that two of my ‘best’ cartridges are ‘Frankenstein’s’ as some like to call them: a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli refurbished by vdHul (vdH tip on boron) and a Krell / Miyabi KC 200 by an ‘unknown’ (Ogura PA tip on boron, presumed not to be original).

So it’s not really a conundrum if you let your ears decide. But in a tumultuous sea of diverting opinions, philosophies and beliefs fighting for your attention (and money), learning to trust one’s own hearing is not at all easy. But ultimately it’s our only chance of audio ‘redemption’. Relax and take care.

UNIVERSAL versus NUMERICAL QUANTIFIER.

European commission without consulting  27 member states

determined that ALL immigrants have right for asylum procedure.

Despite the fact that each country has it own right to determine the

amount of immigrants in its own legislation.

Immigrants from 12 and on age were smarter than the whole commission.

They all knew in advance to  have no chance to get asylum, But

their intention was to reach Europe and than walking from Greece,

Italy and Spain to the North countries with preference  for Germany

and UK. The consequence is that in each EU country there are

much more illegal than legal immigrants. With added difficulty that

their mother countries refuse to accept them back.

What is the relevance  for our forum?

Well the questions like ''which MM cart is best'', ''which phono-pre

is the best''? etc, ''best ever stuff''. 

Those question use UNIVERSAL quantifier while the possible answer

can be given only in terms of NUMERICAL.

Say Raul with his, say, 50 MM carts can only give his opinion about

those 50 carts (numerical) and not about ALL mm cartridges.

The same apply for, say dover with his, say 12 MC carts. 

But by their answer to the mentioned question they newer mention

the numbers involved. This means that they have no idea about

difference between universal and numerical quantifier. But we got

the answers: ADC 26/27 and  Dynavector 17 d among all the carts

ever produced.

 

mulveling, I asked you to explain Raul's ''refreshement  or carts'' in

the context of your statement that you understand him ''prefect'' in

contradistinction to nandric. I have not (yet) seen your answer.

However more problematic for you is the fact that you missed

my point. My point was the fact that he dare to speak about others

''level of knowledge'' while his English suggest that he missed

high school education. Knowledge and (level) of education are

connected. You totally missed my point but he can impossible

missed my point about proving that I was wrong. He knows how 

to refer to his previous post and does this very frequently despite

all of his repetitions so this prove should not cause any problem.

For an low educated person is not very smart to talk about others

''level of knowledge''. It is not possible not to admit as members

plebeians as you and Raul but both of you should know their place.

 

'' Í think that...'' or ''I believe that'' is not an valid argument.

Valid argument is : ''the assertion or argument of my opponent

is not true''. The formula is ''If P then p&q''. That is if the premise

or assertion is true than derivation (deduction) p& q are also

true. But  ''If P is not true than neither are p&q''. 

We don't need to refer to someone psychology . We can simply

refer to statements made by our opponent. 

Those are ''logical rules'' valid for all languages . So the question of

''native language'' is irrelevant. Science is universal which means 

independent from the language of individual scientist. BTW translation

of scientific works is much more easy than literature not to mention

lyrics.

''Straw man'' qualifications are known as ''testimonium paupertatis''. 

 

pinda, Equivalent= equal but not identical. Like Siames twins (grin).

You don't mean that retipers can deliver equal work as the manufacturer,

because this is question about belief , like religion . 

I was stupid not ask mulveling who  is able to understand Raul

perfectly to explain to us what ''refreshing of cartridge '' may mean.

''refurbishing'' will also do . More in particular which parts of an

cart are refreshed and what will happen to those which are not

refreshed?  Then we  will be also in position or state to understand

dover' s ''rebuild''. But this ''term'' may have some deeper meaning.

More religious than religious.

' Equivalent ' is the Key Word.

The 'Retip' Service with Adept Technicians to support the work undertaken, has full confidence in their capability of offering a service, as to whether their supply of a Styli and then attaching it to a Cantilever is carried out and completed in a manner that is equivalent to any other Service be it competitor 'retip' service or a Phono Cartridge Manufacturer.   

With this confidence in abundance from certain third party 'retip' services, the Manufacturer is not required to the task, the choices made for who does the 'retip' belongs to the Cart' owner, and them only.

Obviously there will be those that are willing to express their firmly held opinions on such practices, and challenge the choices made by others when their choice is not aligned. 

Pinda, nice ''reproduction'' of what manufacturer will or are supposed

to do. But my arguments are  pointed out in 4 kinds. Each about

specific ''interpretation problem''. A correct discussion should address

all or some of my arguments denying their truth. Mulveling deed not

address a single one. But he expressed his opinion about his, say,

opponent . He also stated to understand Raul ''exactly''. But

without mentioning when and if  Raul ever addressed MY arguments.

You should also address  my argument about ''original parts'',

their identity so we can know which  are available  as styli and

 cantilevers to manufacturers as well retipers. This does

not apply for what individual retipers may have in their stock.

They don't supply other with their styli. So what they own is not

relevant for  availability in general. We were not able to discover

where Replicant  is produced while we assume that this stylus

is not available to everyone. So my general statement that all

manufacturer as well retipers get their styli and cantilevers from

either Namiki or Ogura is still actual. The point then about ''retip''

is why an manufacturer should do this job (aka gluing cantilever/stylus

combo in the joint pipe)  better than an retipper? 

 

 

I have not investigated all Cartridge Producers Small Print, when it relates to a Service by the Manufacturer, where the offer has an option as follows:

To receive a Exchange Model following a the old model being Traded In.                  This is mainly aimed at a Cartridge that is deemed ready to undergo a refurbishment as a result of many hours of usage.

The Manufacturer offers a 'Retip' , 'Refurbishment' or 'Rebuild' Service on Cart's from their Models Only, or extend this service to a Variety of Brands they are not involved with, which will indirectly become a Bespoke Work and hence a Bespoke Model will be produced.

In any of the the above scenario's the likelihood is that the offer from the Manufacturer will be to supply a Cart' that when returned to the user, has Parts used during the work undertaken that are 'equivalent' to the part that has been exchanged.

My understanding is that the 'equivalent' will be more of a reference to, and limited to the term 'function' and not filter into any other area of what the term 'equivalent' can refer to.

There is also the suggestion that when the Cart' is returned to the user, It will be received under the pretence. that as a result of the 'equivalent' parts being used to restore the supplied model, the least on offer is that the 'function' on offer is the same as the Supplied Cart' and the pretence will also put forward the suggestion that extends to inferring the returned Cart' may be an improved Cart'.

I take it there are Phono Cartridge Technicians who feel if their chosen parts are used to replace parts used by other Technicians from different organisations, they are quite within their rights to infer the Cart' is now at least on parity with the non Bespoke Version, and that the use of chosen parts for the Bespoke Version has potentially produced an Improved working model.     

The usual qualifications without argumentation. People who have

no idea what they are talking about complain about their own 

''incapability''. There is internet you know. There you can

check your own language barrier. Understanding Raul ''exactly''

illustrate your ''understanding'',

 

 

@best-groove 

+1, largely incomprehensible, and not just from a language barrier. Raul's English isn't perfect either, but I can tell exactly what his point is. 

Rephrasing the points made:

The myth of ''original parts'', ''identity confusion'' and ''misunderstanding

of retips''.

1.''Original parts'' presuppose  not only the method of their idetification

     but also of their importance. Neither is made clear.

2. ''Identity'' : no identity without an entity or ''object'' . Names are assumed

     to  provide the reference. But ''fake names'' are not .

3.  Retips, aversion against retips is based on false assumptions: 

     that manufacturer use  their own unique styli while retipers use

     some other (not original) kinds. Our general statement is that

      both use ''the same'' styli produced ether by Ogura or Namiki

      as a combo with the cantilever. The question than is , is gluing

      this combo in the ''joint pipe'' (aluminum  part of the cantilever)

      better done by the manufacturer or retiper as well why? 

      The other thread about Replicant as ''third party'''deed not

       deliver relevant information. 

 

 

best-groove, it is obvious our fault that  you are not capable to understand

the ''rambling sentences'' so you should buy an better translator. Japanese

seem to be experts in translation but Chinese are nearly as good and

cheaper.

@nandric

my translator reports the opening text of this thread with rambling sentences and incomprehensible terms ... a written slang understandable for many but incomprehensible to me. 

I only understood from the last sentence that the retip styles provided by Namiki and Ogura are the same ones that are applied to the manufacturers’ cartridges or something similar.

best-groove, Not sure what you mean with ''What'' but if you are

''stunned'' by my guess that dover and I have ''the same'' taste I

need to mention that I also own Ikeda's 9 Rex (cantileverless) kind

as well Takeda's Miyabi. If in addition dover also owns some of the

FR-7 kinds  then it should be obvious that we at least share some

''the same'' cartridges. 

 

What?!!!!  

My Gosh I owned Denon 103  before dover. But in disquise as Magic

Diamond made by Andreoli from Denon PARTS .  Not sure however of

which LEVEL those are.  Does this imply or mean that dover and I have

the same  taste? 

 

 

Dear pindac,  Nice theoretic thesis. But the question is how many

people can afford , say, 4th level cartridges? If our task is to

stimulate young people to join us I think dover's ''poem'' about 

Denon 103 D is of most importance. I do not think ''inductive''

that is from my personal situation and than composing general

statements. Would ''sound'' like Marlene Ditrich or Marie Antoinete.

I own + 70 carts among which very rare kinds.

 

 

@noske Has made it quite clear in his statement

"However - What is the extra benefit (utility) you obtain from spending an extra amount of money given a menu of combinations?"

If this is taken into the account that @jcarr has offered on the variables that are able to be considered at the time of Cartridge Design, and if a Supply Chain Member can deliver the wanted component as a Off the the Shelf Part, or a Bespoke Produced Part, will most likely determine that extra monies will be added to the end product .

Unfortunately for the Cartridge user the extra benefits of the assemblies produced to complete a Cartridge Range of Models, will be limited to the Manufacturers assessment, once the measurements are satisfied the end Sonic Trait will be determined by their methods of Subjective Listening Tests and a Verdict offered.

It is the Manufacturers Verdict on the unique Sonic Traits, i.e, their assessment of where a addition or removal of transparency is noticed, that will filter down into the Marketing Literature and Sales Spiel for each Model in the range.

In most cases a Range of Cartridges that has a Parent Cartridge and a Off Spring of Variants from the Parent Cart' will have the Off Spring Cart's produced with less parts or lesser parts, i.e, Aluminium replacing Boron, or a Styli Shape and Brand, lesser Quality Damping or Suspension, and in some cases the production cost cut will extend to the Magnet Material being different.

All in all, a MC Cartridge of certain Values will be placed in a area of Marketing where the Low Sales Volume will be counteracted with High Mark Up to the sale price.

It is this Marketing Method, and not limited to a Cartridge Only, that creates a mind set where the Buyer has to justify the cost of such a luxurious item as a purchase, and the fantastical spiel follows, where such items are exalted to Holy Grail Status, where one must aspire to reach.

The reality is that certain Bespoke Produced Cartridges, are seen to be reported on as an incremental improvement, over Cartridges that can be referred to as a design from a Manufacture with increased productivity and larger volume production.

It is quite important to take on board that nearly all assessments that are are offered and discovered when a interest arises, are resulting from a subjective evaluation and an individuals assessment. It is quite important for a Prospective Customer of an Item, to carry out their own assessment and make their own evaluations.                

In the other thread about ''sound of wire'' dover wrote an poem 

about Denon 103 D and ruined this way also the ''contribution'' of

noske as well the relevance of discrimination between retips, rebuild

as well ''refreshment'' of carts. 

 

Tell a lie as well pretending is an art.  The art to compose a lie which

looks like truth. This imply that lie which are obvious make no sense.

There are however ''honest kind''. As , for example, from this

Danish philosopher who stated: ''I never lie because I don't need

to remember them''.