A few years past I have had a Beryllium Cantilever with an Ogura Vital Diamond attached and fitted to a Cartridge by a well known Rebuild Service in Europe.
Most will claim Beryllium is not a option on offer.
Cactus Needle will also be an offering from a rebuild service and the source will not be from Namiki or Ogura.
The Structure of a Cactus Needle when seen under a microscope is Scale like and the tests have shown the Cactus Needle is significantly harder than all other organic wood materials, the Cactus Needle has a very stable property and is not changing in differing ambient conditions.
I have not investigated Madake Bamboo as a Cantilever, so can't offer a summary on how it compares to Cactus as a alternative organic material.
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A Cartridge becomes unique by the selection of materials used for the assembly.
In the material selection there many be a common part used as a Cantilever>Stylus, that is sourced from a dependable Producer in the Supply Chain for the procurement of the product.
As I stated the choices when using the Third Party 'retiper' service are not limited to only Two Brands Products, there are further options to be considered.
It is not for me to say whether considering such a option for Cartridge is correct/incorrect.
My own experience has been from choosing a not so commonly offered material such as Beryllium, where reliance of a assessment of the new parts in use, has been drawn from a personal subjective evaluation and a groups subjective evaluation, is that this method has been very well received and there is a noticeable improvement over a Original Spec' Cartridge. In my case the veer away from maintaining original parts has been very rewarding.
The OP's statement below appears to suggest that when a Third Party 'retiper' service is used, the options on choices are limited to the the use of Two Brands Products only , as seen in the underscored section below.
My experience and point being made is that this is not the case when discussing options on a Service from a Third Party ' retiper', the options are not going to be limited to this. Albeit that it does require the need to commence in a dialogue with a technician to discover the options that can be offered.
The second most important concern for myself, is whether a Service has the Experience and Skill Set to produce the optimized product as part of the process being undertaken.
My experience as a 'layman only' of investigating a variety of Cartridge Rebuilds, if the information viewed is bona fide, has shown Cartridges after short usage and needing to undergo a repair, that are in a condition that does not suggest Quality Control was a paramount concern when the Cartridge was produced. These observations do not endear one, to the idea of entrusting manufacturers that have a good proportion of the Market Place.
My money goes in the direction where I feel it is to be best served.
By the so called ''retips'' the assumption
is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that
every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or
cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''
by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin
of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura.
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The supplied information by @jcarr about the Cartridge having been rebuilt to a condition that had shown to be Poor and there was non original parts in place is quite important, as there is a shift in the market to buying used Cartridges becoming more common, especially for the Higher Priced Items.
For some using the used market, it is the most cost effective entrance into the creating the opportunity to acquire the Cartridges that have the Higher Price Tags. For another, it can quite simply mean a rare model has appeared and is the desired to own list. I have seen the latter happen very recently with a Ortofon Vienna, that surfaced in the used Market
In either case, it really is a case for the Buyer to do their home work and research, to ensure they are not buying into a known Model that has undergone 'cut and shut' standards of remediation on a faulty model, Caveat Emptor is the most valuable guidance, a very helpful vendor who supplies accurate information to inquiries, is a bonus.
How the above weaves itself into the description of an occurrence that @jcarr was exposed to is unknown, but which ever way, a party with no involvement was incorrectly labelled with the blame and this again, is unjust.
I have no issue with not using non OEM parts in a Cartridge, as long as the design is seen to be for the better, and the decision is taken as a result of advise offered by a technician.
Secondly, at no time would this information be concealed, it would be described correctly, Third Party Service Provider and Methods chosen, this would be revealed, whether during a demonstration or if the decision was made to sell.
The Cartridge rebuild service I have used, will not work with a Cartridge that is showing evidence of not being an original spec model. The explained stance, is that the necessary investigation of whether the Cartridge can be repaired to a improved condition, and undoing any work that has been carried out, is a cost the service are not going to pass onto a Customer.
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There are without doubt individuals on this Analogue Forum that have acquired a in depth understanding of Cartridge Technologies and are committed to the source of the designs and their minute understanding of their designs.
Another consideration is that design teams come together and separate heading off in other directions, possibly seeking new challenges or creating their own ventures, many revered Cartridges are now separate Brands from this type of historical happening.
In a more modern world, freelance is a more common seen method of recruitment, and technicians are used for a particular project, maybe in some cases to bring in fresh thoughts and rejuvenate old staple philosophies. These types of individual are gathering a broader experience and have a developing skill set that is potentially able to produce a variety of configurations for materials used on a Cartridge that will deliver a very acceptable end performance.
I use a Cartridge rebuild service that the Technician started out their career as a freelance and has worked within a design team on a few very well known Cartridges, that are very well received by a large number of users. This does not mean I am doing anything absolutely correct, it just means I am offering my Cartridge to an individual who has had hands on the early designs and production of Cartridges from the same brand, I find it quite reassuring, that the Technician is well versed and experienced in working with the Brands Technologies.
Another consideration is that a Brand will usually design a Cartridge that will be a Parent Model, and there will be follow up Models produced using proportions of the Technologies found in the Parent Cartridge.
I will suggest that this is for two reasons, One to be the foundation of a New Range of Models to be offered, and the other to produce a Sonic that covers a much broader spectrum of a listeners preferences, creating differences to assembly of materials found on the Parent Model, to counteract the deficiencies it has to meet a certain type of sonic trait.
It is common to see a range of Cartridges where the assembly of parts differ slightly, be it a differing Stylus, Cantilever Material, Cant' Material / Stylus, Damper Material, Suspension Wire, or even a slight change to the Coil Windings.
Technically these new produced models using the Parents Models Core Technologies are looking to myself, to be rebuilds of a particular model, albeit the Parent Model as being the start point.
It is also known as a disclaimer by manufacturers that if a Cartridge is returned to be overhauled, that there might be differing components selected for the refurbishment works, as the originals may not be in stock any longer. This as an outcome will be to produce another variant of the Parent Model or Off Spring Model. What is for sure is that the returned Cartridge will not be the same assembly of materials as the Model when purchased new.
If a Third Party Service with a good reputation, chooses to use a different Stylus, Cantilever / Stylus, Damper or a Suspension Wire, the work undertaken will have created a further variant of the Parent Model or its Off Spring Models. It is impossible to say if such a variant is a lesser performer than the pre worked on model. It is very possible to say the Model is no longer an identical model to the supplied model at the time of purchase, and this seems to be very similar to the disclaimer being made by a manufacturer.
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If a product is produced from the exact same assembly of Materials, in the terms of a Marketing Description it is an Identical Model, and that is the requirement of the law to ensure the Model on offer complies with the materials used as advertised by the Supplier/ Manufacturer.
As said when the time of Manufacturer Refurbishment Occurs, a disclaimer might declare that the materials in the assembly may not be maintained, if new parts are to be used in the process of refurbishment.
I am sure that if an assembly of a selection of Parts belonging to a range of Cartridge Models was investigated with scientific control measures, a difference between a similar part, when compared is most likely to be detected, such a endeavour to match parts to this level of accuracy is not required to be carried out by the Cartridge Manufacturer, and I doubt whether such a practice has ever occurred.
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Can a Link be supplied to the discussion where the referred to individual 'Wittgenstein' has made comments known about MC Cartridges and 'retips', this might help with eliminating Third Party interpretations, that are seemingly detracting from the subject of the thread. The content offered from the said person 'Wittgenstein' on the matter of commercial products assemblies and the consistent use of common parts whilst a range of models is being produced, appears to be suggested as being quite relevant.
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@nandric - Thank You for supplying such Merryment, it is great to see your willingness to embrace the Ambience of the Seasonal Celebrations. I don't know if you are devout in Christianity, and have adopted a very modern approach to the Celebration of Christmas where everything is based on excess and good cheer.
The latter in the thread approach offered by yourself as your contributions to a discussion on an MC Cartridge having 'original' or 'non original parts' is pure comedy.
The relevance and importance of the information being supplied, is unfortunately way above comprehension for my mere level of intelligence, but I assume this is your suspicion anyways. To quote one Philosopher on this matter has caused myself to be bewildered and I can't find the reasoning within me, to bring the Product and Philosopher together in any form of an alignment.
I consider myself as not being stupid enough to overlook a content that is hilarious and in abundance with stupidity. These are the ingredients of all great comedy, so thank you for your wit and supplying the opportunity to smile and laugh aloud.
The content on offer has prompted myself to think a little beyond the Thread Subject, and I have recollected that I know of one Modern Production Cartridge that might be aligned to a Philosophical Description that has been used for the Models name, as in Japanese Philosophy the term 'Umami' suggests that the experience of the of the native cuisine, is being able to produce a multi - sensory experience, I would assume such a basic description has been the centre of conversation at many a dinner party attended by affluent learned types, where the fundamental meaning has been intellectually assaulted to beyond recognition.
Rightly or Wrongly on my behalf, I would believe this is a Philosophy used when the Hana Umami Red MC was having a design brief produced, who knows maybe the morning after one of the dinner parties referred to.
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@noske Has made it quite clear in his statement
"However - What is the extra benefit (utility) you obtain from spending an extra amount of money given a menu of combinations?"
If this is taken into the account that @jcarr has offered on the variables that are able to be considered at the time of Cartridge Design, and if a Supply Chain Member can deliver the wanted component as a Off the the Shelf Part, or a Bespoke Produced Part, will most likely determine that extra monies will be added to the end product .
Unfortunately for the Cartridge user the extra benefits of the assemblies produced to complete a Cartridge Range of Models, will be limited to the Manufacturers assessment, once the measurements are satisfied the end Sonic Trait will be determined by their methods of Subjective Listening Tests and a Verdict offered.
It is the Manufacturers Verdict on the unique Sonic Traits, i.e, their assessment of where a addition or removal of transparency is noticed, that will filter down into the Marketing Literature and Sales Spiel for each Model in the range.
In most cases a Range of Cartridges that has a Parent Cartridge and a Off Spring of Variants from the Parent Cart' will have the Off Spring Cart's produced with less parts or lesser parts, i.e, Aluminium replacing Boron, or a Styli Shape and Brand, lesser Quality Damping or Suspension, and in some cases the production cost cut will extend to the Magnet Material being different.
All in all, a MC Cartridge of certain Values will be placed in a area of Marketing where the Low Sales Volume will be counteracted with High Mark Up to the sale price.
It is this Marketing Method, and not limited to a Cartridge Only, that creates a mind set where the Buyer has to justify the cost of such a luxurious item as a purchase, and the fantastical spiel follows, where such items are exalted to Holy Grail Status, where one must aspire to reach.
The reality is that certain Bespoke Produced Cartridges, are seen to be reported on as an incremental improvement, over Cartridges that can be referred to as a design from a Manufacture with increased productivity and larger volume production.
It is quite important to take on board that nearly all assessments that are are offered and discovered when a interest arises, are resulting from a subjective evaluation and an individuals assessment. It is quite important for a Prospective Customer of an Item, to carry out their own assessment and make their own evaluations.
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I have not investigated all Cartridge Producers Small Print, when it relates to a Service by the Manufacturer, where the offer has an option as follows:
To receive a Exchange Model following a the old model being Traded In. This is mainly aimed at a Cartridge that is deemed ready to undergo a refurbishment as a result of many hours of usage.
The Manufacturer offers a 'Retip' , 'Refurbishment' or 'Rebuild' Service on Cart's from their Models Only, or extend this service to a Variety of Brands they are not involved with, which will indirectly become a Bespoke Work and hence a Bespoke Model will be produced.
In any of the the above scenario's the likelihood is that the offer from the Manufacturer will be to supply a Cart' that when returned to the user, has Parts used during the work undertaken that are 'equivalent' to the part that has been exchanged.
My understanding is that the 'equivalent' will be more of a reference to, and limited to the term 'function' and not filter into any other area of what the term 'equivalent' can refer to.
There is also the suggestion that when the Cart' is returned to the user, It will be received under the pretence. that as a result of the 'equivalent' parts being used to restore the supplied model, the least on offer is that the 'function' on offer is the same as the Supplied Cart' and the pretence will also put forward the suggestion that extends to inferring the returned Cart' may be an improved Cart'.
I take it there are Phono Cartridge Technicians who feel if their chosen parts are used to replace parts used by other Technicians from different organisations, they are quite within their rights to infer the Cart' is now at least on parity with the non Bespoke Version, and that the use of chosen parts for the Bespoke Version has potentially produced an Improved working model.
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' Equivalent ' is the Key Word.
The 'Retip' Service with Adept Technicians to support the work undertaken, has full confidence in their capability of offering a service, as to whether their supply of a Styli and then attaching it to a Cantilever is carried out and completed in a manner that is equivalent to any other Service be it competitor 'retip' service or a Phono Cartridge Manufacturer.
With this confidence in abundance from certain third party 'retip' services, the Manufacturer is not required to the task, the choices made for who does the 'retip' belongs to the Cart' owner, and them only.
Obviously there will be those that are willing to express their firmly held opinions on such practices, and challenge the choices made by others when their choice is not aligned.
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As the subject is to be focused on Styli, Cantilevers and Original, the proposal that a Styli and Cantilever assembly is a product from a limited number of Companies that are considered being a Supplier of the parts for a Manufacturers Supply Chain in the procurement of the overall items to be assembled, does seem to have a relevance in todays Manufacture for a Cartridge, even though it is known there are Cartridge Manufacture Companies and 'Retip' Services that as apart of a present Production or Refurbishment Service, offer a Bespoke Styli >Cantilever assembly that is not an assembly produced by the limited number of Companies that are being referred to.
For the Original Element, the further back in time one will go to review the variations across the Cartridge Models that were offered in a Market Place, where a much larger range of options were to be encountered.
There will be many descriptions supplied by the Manufacturer that will suggest that there is a Bespoke Part to be found in a particular Cartridge, and a part that was most likely produced by a specialist with access to the materials selected or even a in house assembly of the selected parts.
Then there is the other consideration where a design is evolving and Parts are being included and deselected , either on paper or after thorough assessment through demonstrations and testing.
Parts used at the design stages and deselected, would still warrant a status of a Original Part, but not the part selected for the model to be the, 'Piggy, that went to market'.
Is it not possible that when a challenge is made by a owner of a quite old model of Cartridge, where there is a rejection of the idea of using a Third Party 'retip' Service,
The challenge is due to the idea the 'retip' Service is going to use parts that are not related to the Cartridge Parts used in the era of production, and the most likely place to acquire these parts is with the original manufacturer, or at the least get a sympathetic service supplied from the Manufacturer that is considering the Cartridges age and uniqueness due to the Vintage.
From experience of taking the time to read the terms of the Service offered by a Manufacturer for their refurbishment service, bear in mind I have not read all Manufacturer's terms, I will say once more the used word 'equivalent' is the get out of jail card.
There is not going to be a Cartridge produced that is a match in parts used to the model being refurbished, there is going to be parts used for the refurbishment, that are assessed, hopefully by an adept technician to be an 'equivalent' part. There will be a function parity only. In a 'Nutshell' one more Bespoke Refurbishment is produced of a Cartridge.
This Bespoke Refurbishment from a Manufacturer or from a 'retip' Service if both carried out by adept technicians will most likely have very closely match similarities as the modern supply chains are ubiquitous in their presence and do not seem to be an exclusive entity, hence the offered parts end up being available to numerous parties.
@nandric good to see you back, with your learned descriptions and following mind boggle to boot.
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@jcarr
Thank you for your input and making it known that the Lyra Cartridge Brand are able to make the parts selected from the time of the design and final production of their models available to be used on returned Cartridges for a very long period following the Models release.
It is quite comforting to know that if a used Lyra was purchased by myself, it can be returned to a function that will be very closely or even a match to the model when purchased new.
In relation to the 'Ceralloy' used on the earlier designs from the Lyra Company, would Lyra offer a rebuild of a Cartridge from this era, to be offered to a customer where a 'equivalent ' Cartridge will be the proposal for the outcome of the rebuild and where a technicians assessment of the alternative parts to be used would qualify the term 'equivalent ' as being the correct description ?
If the Rebuild did take place, would the end product produced, become a bespoke version of the model with the 'Ceralloy' material used in the design ?
From my end, I would not have any concerns about the Bespoke Design produced, my experience has shown this outcome can be very advantageous to the end user.
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As a customer, the level of service accepted by an individual is their choice.
If one wants an inspection carried out of the Styli from an experienced technician that is fine, if the assessment claims the Styli is Good for a extended usage, then the customer decides how they want their Cartridge returned, in a condition that will support an extended use, or while its on the Work Bench, supply a new styli with a full life ahead of it.
Obviously if the Styli is spent a suggestion of a further inspection of the Cartridges overall suggestion might be the inspection method proposed by the technician.
Again what ever decisions the customer is to make will be theirs only, as it is their money to be parted with.
What really matters is how much the technician knows about the Cartridge being inspected and how much the technicians assessment is trusted by the customer.
If the aim is to have a particular Cartridge produced through additional works undertaken, that will be a working model that is a accurate mimic of the supplied donor Cartridge, it seems to myself that it is quite important for the technician to be familiar with the New Version of the Donor Cartridge.
If the aim is to receive a returned Cartridge that is a functioning model with a long user life in front of it, then the workmanship of the technician, it seems to myself, that having a trust in the engineers work and selections of parts will be the important factor.
Foor the latter there are known services that can offer this with little concerns raised for the service to be received.
The former is looking most likely that the person with a full understanding of the Cartridge is a harder individual to find, especially with the knowledge of the Cartridge with a low hours nearly new model.
J Carr has made himself known as being a candidate that is with the capability to achieve this with the Lyra Brand Products.
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A Cartridge is a Product produced to be sold and is just one item available from multiple items that a individual might need to consider purchasing.
It is not a Product such as, buying or leasing a home, Gas, Electricity, Water or Food, as these are essentials and are extremely valuable to living person. When expenditure is laid out for the acquisition of these items, a fundamental requirement for the health and welfare of an individual is being met.
All purchases require an outlay of some kind, of which the majority is going to be paid for with an outlay of a currency.
The need to acquire a possession of a currency in the modern world and for the world for approx' 4000 Years, has to been for the general population to achieve a method to produce a form of currency.
For many of the population, in the so called 'good times' the currency being achieved has been of a quantity that allows for the purchase of the essentials and very little more.
Within all populations there are then individuals that have gained the capacity to have acquired much more currency than another, and use such increases in available currency, to have broader choices on how to acquire non essential items, in many cases these items might need to be produced to their specific demands.
When currency is available to an individual that enables the acquisition of non essential Items, that are for beyond the point of being required to meet an individuals basic needs, it can be suggested with a conviction that such items are able to come with a further label of being and 'absolute luxury'.
An 'absolute luxury' being something that is gained through an excessive outlay of currency and very little is acquired to enhance the individuals unadulterated essential needs.
Hence, the Cartridge is a required tool when a acquisition is made for an individual to carry out replays of LP's, the Cartridge is one device in an assembly of devices that will be needed to make the replay of a LP be realized.
The Cartridge when purchased, is usually only the want of an individual, it is not so common for a group or family to share the interest in the acquisition. When a Cartridge is purchased at the lowest price for one that can offer a reasonable function, especially not known to cause damage to the Hard Medium, the outlay required for certain individuals with an access to low levels of a currency only, will prove to be a substantial outlay for 'absolute luxury' that is by design a fragile device and which by design is to deteriorate to being a device that is best no longer used and taken out of service.
Cartridges are an item that are available to be acquired at a currency that can be seen to match the price of a device that many families would dream to own, and where all members within the family would agree the benefits would be valuable to the whole.
Items that fall into the category of 'absolute luxury' also have a 'Dark Side' the influence of the want to acquire an 'absolute luxury' can impact quite intensely on the psyche of an individual. An 'Obsessional Behaviour' is most likely at the forefront, and the Selfishness of the want of the individual will govern the decisions that are in the pipeline awaiting to be made.
The 'Obsessional Behaviour' can create a pattern of behaviour from the individual that is now perfect for their appointment to become a prey of the Market Place to be captured.
The fair lore has been granted, we will accept returns within 30 Days is usually enough for the hound to be released from the Slip. The first trick the hound will use to lure its prey in, is to guide the quarry to the Spiel from the Marketing, the hound will be intent on having the quarry, be able to recite the offerings with great accuracy, the reviews will be next, the route to these will be discovered very close to the latter end of the Spiel, such content, from such trusted reporters will be analysed and the quarries mind will slowly become totally fixated, and honed to the condition, that the quarry is oblivious to the hound gaining the position to move into the final stages of the pursuit and strike at their prey.
At this stage, it is only a few more carefully selected strides that ensnares the quarry in the bite of the Hound.
I really think, the Serbian along with any other Nationality across the Globe who has a access to little currency over a long duration, will be concerning themselves about much more important outlays for their disposable currency, such as the priorities of the essentials to be acquired with the currency.
Forums are two edge swords, and one edge does allow for an individual to express their 'Obsessional Behaviour' for the desire to own items for beyond the realms of being essential. There is regularly seen an element of elitism, and commonly seem notifications, of having been able to acquire a certain level of a device that is assembled with materials that carry the label exotic and are knwn to be aimed at a certain demographic within a population.
Boron is not so exotic any longer it is widely chosen material, it can be obtained by individuals that cross over into differing demographics. Hence, why Diamond or other Gemstones are on the table for discussion as an alternative material, these offer the perception of being a harder to realize material for the common user of a Cartridge.
SKYANALOG Cartridges are using Boron on their cheapest models, which for many will prove to require a not too concerning amount of currency to be parted with to acquire a model which is slowly winning favour in many European LP replay systems.
If the reports are to be trusted, it is looking like Dyna's, Hana's and Phasemation are being replaced by the SKYANALOG Models.
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I know the concepts of most currencies, I have a reasonable understanding of how commodities were a currency, especially amassed arable crop and how this evolved into coin through to present day, with digital currencies such as a Debit System and the New Kids on the attempting to find their way through to be recognised as a currency, such as Crypto and other Cyber commodities.
Cyber Currencies are the future, but only will happen, when the established organisations have got the methods under their control and are at a place in the Market, where there is access to huge kick backs from the transactions.
Banks under the approval oof Governments will most likely convert non bank created Cyber Currencies to their own, and the Banks own Cyber Currency and Converted Currencies will be accepted as a legal tender for every day trading.
I'm sure their are Governments quite keen to get their proportion of the uplift value of such currencies that are locked away from their scrutiny. The Banks will i'm sure be informing the authorities of all Crypto Currency Conversions, of which some will be of great interest to a Governments Internal Revenues Department.
Those who bought their 10 - 100 Crypto Coin Lots in the early introduction period around 2009/10 at approx' $7-10 per coin and have maintained their access to Secure Storage Vaults, will have a substantial pot of gold to release into the mainstream Market, even after a hefty Taxation that will most likely manifest, when the Banks are involved with exchanges.
I'm sure and predict, that this new period of a digitised currency, will see a time when certain Cartridge Models have record breaking price tags and are only offered when Cryto/Cyber Currency is the used legal tender.
Now that is one more unique experience for the small groups of aspiring elitists that are manifesting in all forums, and will again, i'm sure have its own thread on certain forums, where the difficulty to contribute due to not being able to experience the practice will be quite separating, nothing like being in the exclusivity club eh !
I'll get there with my usual methods, I'll sit tight and have Searches in place for a used Crypto Purchased all exclusive Cartridge in need of a repair.
If the price is fair, I'll send the acquired Cart' to a 'retip' service where the only concern is for the Cart' and if all goes swimmingly well join the exclusive thread as a impoverished contributor with a rejuvenated Crypto Cart being used, the fall out should be quite amusing.
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A customer is free to make their own assessment as to how they wish to receive a product they are considering purchasing.
Considering can also require a allocation of time to be allowed for.
It can be a short duration, to confirm the intent to purchase, such as hit the Buy it Now tool with no prior inquiry, through to making inquiries to see if the item is worthy of a continued consideration.
I would consider a Cartridge if an interest was present, if it was a vintage item, offered with a proof, a complete overhaul of all critical parts in the assembly have been exchanged for equivalent parts to ensure the longevity of the function is addressed. I would not consider this Cartridge a mimic of the Manufactured Model.
A vintage Cart' with a 'retip' only, that equates to a Styli being replaced, would not be a item of attraction to myself.
A Cart' with a short period of time behind it, from when it was a New Purchase Item, if offered with a 'retip' only, that equates to a Styli being replaced, would present itself as an Item I would consider, the more learnt from inquires made, about the 'retip' service and the Cart's previous usage, would underpin the idea the Cart' is worth considering, when the returned reports are meeting the expectations I be wanting to have for the Cart'.
In the same way a Seller can choose a Buyer if interest in a item is high, or refuse an offer from a buyer, the Buyer can refuse to continue dealing with a seller or decide to not pursue the purchase of the item any further, all seems quite fair for both parties.
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