God don't need no stinkin' pre-amp, he's got angels to sing live, well sort'a. |
Mrtennis,
Clearly, your beliefs are firmly held. However, your logic is not so secure: the concept of the "best" is relative to other similar items and must obviously be qualified by criteria for evaluation and judgement (for example, frequency extension, imaging, sound stage, bass definition, pitch, timbral accuracy etc). These all being unavoidably qualified by the noted proximity to actual live performances - high fidelity.
Within these parameters (which I believe is where much audiophile discussion takes place), there can obviously be the best of any component, with the issue being one of "best at what"? A distinct issue is finding people that will agree on the criteria and this moves into the question of "taste". However, again, the issue of taste can be resolved if parameters are estabilished by those wishing to exchange and/or expolore their judgements. Again, the actual live performance is the inevitable and ultimate criteria for validating these judgements.
I think |
if there esisted a "best" component in each category, someone would specify the brand name and be able to justify the opinionor so-called knowledge.
the fact that for any component type there are so many suggestions as to what is "best", would seem to indicate that there is no best.
in fact all components are erroenous and they manifest this in different ways. thus, there can be no best amp, preamp, cd player, cable, speaker, power conditioner, etc., as each component has its strengths and weaknesses. |
11-29-08: Inman29
BAT REX ... but it looks like Andrew started and then abandoned this thread in January, 2007, leaving everyone to respond to the black hole! Unfortunately, that is more the norm than an aberration. |
BAT REX ... but it looks like Andrew started and then abandoned this thread in January, 2007, leaving everyone to respond to the black hole! |
I would have a look to Jadis JP 80 which I prefered over the ARC ref3
also to the Viola which has the most incredible precision in staging the musicians on differents layers ... just amazing!
and maybe to Jeff Rowland brand new Criterion |
Dgob,
Thanks.. Happy listening to you too! |
Bvdiman,
I'll sure take you up on that offer the next time I come out to that part of the world. In the meantime, I hope you continue to enjoy your music as much as you should. |
Dgob,
Unfortunately, I'm currently residing on other side of the universe--S.E.Asia! But should you happen to come around, I'll be more than happy to have you. Can also show you few other spectacular set-ups here.
Thanks for link re Essential, will look them up. At the moment I'm just too excited, my FM268 has finally arrived! Still breaking them in, learning--fiddling with their built-in linearizer section and enjoying sooo.. much music while at it. I can attest as of now that it is already sounding better than my 'loaner'--as well it should?
Having had the FM266mkII for almost 3 months, and tested them in various highly regarded systems (in where they 'never once' failed to shine), finally got me convinced enough to take the plunge--all the way!! I'm a very happy but a very broke man now.. :')
Rgrds |
Hi Bvdiman,
Your amp's sound phenomenal and I'd love to hear that set up. The Essential 3160 is a bespoke phonolinepre and I believe that some technological aspects of FM Acoustic's approach influenced aspects of its designers' thinking. You can find out more about the Essential directly from a fellow audiogoner - Raul Ireugas - who you could contact off line at rauliruegas@hotmail.com. My mind boggles at contemplating its potential in your system.
All the best |
Hi Dgob,
15yrs ago when purchasing my FM611, I was actually meant to pair them with an FM266. I didn't, at that particular point of time cos I honestly thought the 266 were 'bad' (for the $$$)--although open, fast, transparent, excellent micro-macro details, they also tended to be rather bright, with high listener fatigue and a touch on the clinical side of things. Thus, much preferred my moded VTL Ultimate and ARC SP11mkII back then.
Only recently (a couple of years ago), had I 'realized' that the FMs gears are actually the more superbly transparent to source, and that those tube gears I loved, kept and lived with then were just doing an excellent job of masking and giving CDs their much needed euphonic blankets, making them just that bit more pleasant and listenable.
Had cd players during those times (early 90's), matured to the stage where they are today, guess I would've raved about these gears (FM As) much much sooner. Well.. they are just ahead of time for me! =) Running FMs (amp & pre) now, the synergy is magical! Sold my ARC REF600 & REF3 3 months ago, do miss their presence and heat at times, still kept their pics though.. hAh!
Btw. coming from you, the Essential 3160 sounds an interesting piece too. Would appreciate if you could share some infos of them. Price? Website?? Thanks.. |
Bvdiman,
I agree wholly and maybe those that have now had an opportunity to listen to some of the more high end sources can also comment on this!:~) I've never managed to hear the Essential 3160 with an FM Acoustic power amp but the combination should be very interesting. Maybe in the near future |
If VTL REF7.5 or ARC REF3 serves any reference here, I can confidently say that even basic offering from FM Acoustics, their FM245, eclipses them both. In the two separate instances of home demos I experienced where REF3s were replaced, each audition only took a mere 10 minutes into the listening session before their respective owners confirmed a trade-in.
But since both REF3 users were driving SS amps (Burmester & the big Chords), I was first a bit skeptical by the outcomes, thinking that their amps being SS probably a better match for the FMs. Therefore decided to home audition one myself, and partner it with my trusted ARC REF600mkIII for the weekend. This time the dealer loaned me an FM266mkII. Boy were they right.. those FMs were no flukes! Just minutes into the second track upon firing up, I was totally bought and convinced that the improvement wrought in my system (in most musically important aspects) was 'not subtle'. Sad to say that my beloved REF3 was totally outclassed, and that this not insubstantial plunge was actually justifiable!! (however, some might argue based on pricing alone, this was an unfair shoot-out).
Thus having experienced the above, and few other occasions where shoot-out made at friends' home against other top line references from competing ultra hi-end manufacturers (ranging from 2 pieces to 4 box units), many opined that the top line offering from FM Acoustics, their 'single' chassis FM268 (which was yet another notch up or two sonically above their own superb FM266mkII) is definitely still the one to beat should there ever be a shoot-out for the best-of-the-best, cost-no-object, line stage preamp available today.
Look for one (any of them), and audition for yourself! When properly set-up, make sure to feed them good stable AC, FM's Precision IC (a must!), Forceline SC (whenever possible). I'm sure that most will have to agree that these gears are just plain--astonishing! |
Audion Premier Quattro 4 Box Pre-Amp
if you willing to pay that price
you will have one of the greatest pre amp ever |
Well Dgob, their are certainly definite hallmarks of "REAL" music played live. Dynamic contrasts/range and lack of distortion are a couple. Accurate tone is obvious, as well as a sense of ease at all volume levels. All instruments are easily picked out without one overcompeting with another. At home one should get as close as possible to re-creating these parameters...the bref 3 allows an enormous amount of these hallmarks through! Most other preamps sound controlled and stunted to some degree or another. |
Dave_b, just curious to hear if you find that sound stage (as presented through much hifi) is not what you experience when presented through these live venues? And do you think that it is interesting to note the differences between home audio norms and the sources that should - in theory - underpin them? |
How many of you have gone to some of the great concert halls around the USA or the world for that matter! 5th row Boston is full, warm, huge, detailed, airy, extended and crazy dynamic with mind blowing dimensionality...the ref 3 re-creates that effect with commensurate components. Also, how far apart do most of you have your speakers ? These things say alot about how and what you listen for !! |
Hi George, we do have a demo program. Give us a call for details 651-690-2246 |
Dear Atmasphere
Do you support home demos for your audio equipment?
I'd love to listen your top preamp!
George |
Atmasphere
That is a pity your distributor is no longer around - unfortunately not surprising. Good luck with finding a new importer. Melb, Sydney or brisbane would be better for all audiophiles.
You guys in the US and Europe don't know how lucky you have it :-)
yes, so for what i have heard the ART is the best and most musical.
cheers |
Downunder, I get that. It seems that your situation illustrates the issue that, if there *is* a 'best' preamp, it would be almost impossible to find it, for no other reason than its almost impossible to get your hands on all the possibilities for audition!
I've been told that our distributor in WA is no longer in business; his website is still up but he does not respond to email. |
Atmasphere
I think I have tried as many pre amps I could get my hand's on, especially living in Sydney and after 3 years of trying and wasting money, time to settle down
Unfortunately one cannot try everything, especially downunder. Remote is a must for me, and Aesthetix has only recently included remote control, einstein from all reports sounds too lean for my tastes.
I have not had any luck with your distributor in WA, as he does not want to demo anything out of WA and has no dealers in Sydney.
I liked the sound of the cj prem16 when I had it so bought a s/h ART. Sounds wonderful and I am off the pre amp merry go round - for pre amps at least :) |
How is the Accuphase C-280 or C-290V? Also contender for best preamp or not? It has lots of electronic parts inside though.
Chris |
Dave b,
I know that the expense of the FM gear is often a prohibitor and - maybe - one reason why they are not as frequently lauded in popular high end circles. I suspect this is in part a consequence of the company's low profile advertising, geographical location and uncompromising self confidence.
BTW, I've owned various ARC components and they remain the favourite among all tube based amplification that I've owned and/or heard. They seem to present an excellent balance between the best virtues of the most popular tube and ss equipment. Nevertheless, I also think you ought to give the Essential a turn. It could be an even greater advance but that will obviously depend on what picture you ultimately wish to see.
All the best in your listening and enjoyment |
Hi Downunder, In the world of tubes, the Aesthetix preamps are highly regarded, Einstein has an impressive preamp, we've been making an all tube balanced preamp longer than anyone else...
I guess my point is, why did you go back to CJ after such a limited engagement of other preamps? |
Dgob, the 268 was impressive but expensive and not better than the ref 3..tubes still complete the picture better for me. Funny, FM stuff is rarely mentioned in high end circles ? |
Dave b, excuse my long delay but I only just read your responses. Have you heard the FM Acoustic pre's or the Essential 3150 and, if so, which FM Acoustic pre's and what were your impressions of these and the Essential - particularly in comparison with your tubes pre?
I'm just curious because I feel that these really do bring something quite unique to the table. |
I am not sure what your point is Atmasphere.
I can think of plenty of tube pre amps as well. I have tried VTL7.5, ARC ref 1 & 2, CAT, cary 98P and new cj ACT2 / CT5.
I much prefer the musical presentation of the original ART/prem16. That is why I have come back to cj pre amp after 3 years of not limiting myself to cj. |
Hi Downunder, there are at least 5 other tube preamps I can think of that will do that. If I think about it, I can probably name more. Any reason why you limit yourself to the CJ? |
HI Larry
I would hope the cj ART3 at $25k would bring something unique to the musical equation that the original ART or REF3 don't currently bring :-) |
But now there is a MBL dealer in my country , what about the MBL preamplifiers 6011D or 5011 In absolute terms, the 6011 then the 5011. But, I really can't tell what you need: i.e. both are very versatile and practical with lots of functionalities and... good. So, you may not need a 6011. Both are exquisitely engineered by the way. I would also *assume* both are better than the Capitole's embedded pre... but don't know. Really, you must try them. |
Hi Downunder,
I have not heard the Ref. 3 in my own system, but, I've heard it at shows and dealerships. It is much less analytical, dry and lean sounding than prior ARC linestages (other ARC linestages sounded more "solid state" than almost any solid state gear to me). I don't know how the Ref. 3 compares to the CJ ACT 3, but I bet the sound is now much closer than in the past. |
NO Baranyi, I have not heard the ref 3. I have heard the previous ref series and for my tastes a little too forward and closer to SS sound than I would like.
An audio buddy of mine in Melb owns a suptratek and he likes it a lot, however I live in Sydney, so have never heard it. They suptratek guy, Mick is based in Perth, which is 4000 miles away, so he might as well be in the USA :) |
I have audio aero capitole mk2 cd player , direct in my amplifier, I have tryied 3 pre amplifiers before - Audio research reference 3, audiopax model 5 and gamut d3, the AR ref 3 was a little better than the preamplifier that comes with cdplayer , the others did not add nothing, but I think in buy another cd player with SACD so I will need one preamplifier,my list became small: joule 150 mk2, wyetech opal or pearl, supratek . But now there is a MBL dealer in my country , what about the MBL preamplifiers 6011D or 5011. |
Downunder,
Thanks for the comparison. Let me ask you if you have compared the ARC REF 3 to the ART. I was wondering if you have heard any of the Supratek preamps since you are Downunder? Thanks Bob |
>>Is that a problem for you??????<<
When you fail to disclose your affiliation with AA, it is a problem for everyone reading this thread.
Got it?
Regarding your assertion that the AA linestage is better than the others under consideration you appear to have much to learn as it pales in comparison to all of them.
Got it? |
Hi Barayni
Good question. I have series 1 ART.
I would suggest if you have never heard the prem 16/17 or ART one would be very happy with the ACT2/CT5.
For me the prem16/ART series has a more organic musical presentation.
the ACT2 does the hifi aspects of music better like tight bass, more extended treble.
But the ART to my ears is just more natural sounding and lets the natural tonal qualities of instruments become easier to hear. Soundstage is just huge with the ART as well. A Bad recording will still sound bad, however the ART seems to make it easier to listen to, without making everything slow and veiled.
I would luv to hear the ART3, however I may end up preferring the original - who knows thou. |
I do sell Audio Aero!!!!! Probably better than most of the preamps he is looking at. Plus he upgrades his CD Player as well. Is that a problem for you?????? |
I'll bet you sell AA sounds real.
What say you? |
I would buy an Audio Aero with analogue inputs and volume control. |
I do believe that the person that initiated the thread fully expected us to chime in with what we feel is the best preamp money can buy. This being based on our own personal experience. Therefore, my uphill climb has led me to believe that my Messenger preamp that I currently own is the best. |
If Andrew the author of this thread hasn't found a preamp by now, he is not likely to do so. In the past seven months of this post, we have flogged this to death, and has turned more into a blog than anything else. All have made valid points in regards to personal choices, based hopefully on real ownership and/or have actually heard thier recommendations in real world environments. I believe it is time to move on or at least get back to the solid substance of this thread, although I belive that Andrew by now has made his choice. Well done to all the respondents of this post. |
Shane,
Which CJ Art do you have? What do you like about the ART that the ACT lacks? Bob |
I recall FM Acoustics now...it's a swiss boutique manufacturer catering to the exclusive "money is no object/sound is second" club. Hardly. It's a pro equip manufacturer, it's not priced over all others, and the sound quality is superb. Nice quote however. Likewise, atma's pre is also superb sounding, and the latest CAT is also nice. Many nice products out there -- to little money. |
If price is not a major factor, you might want to try the new CAT legend. I have not heard it, but knowing Ken Stevens work, which I highly respect, I would be amazed if it wasn't a world beater. |
Hi Shane,
Yeah, I guess it has been awhile. I got tired of making all of the changes so I stopped posting my system a couple years ago. It seemed that my 'System' was always obsolete. 8-)
John
PS: I'll PM you with the latest boring details. |
Hi John
Been a while.
What do you have these days, besides a ref3 pre which by all accounts is a luvely pre amp and easily ARC's best.
have you heard the PH7, sounds wonderful. me i am just a little worried about the 57.5db gain but now I have the ART with quite a bit of gain I will try the PH7 again.
You should put your system on gon.
cheers Shane |
Hi Dave
I agree with you re the cj ACT2. I had it at home and it did not do it for me. Same with the CT5. hence me going back to the ART, which is musically wonderful. I guess that is why its s/h value is more than the ACT2.
I don't think having 3 versions of a pre amp in 10 years is excessive - do you??
ARC have gone thru triple that with the ref pre.
I have heard the PH7 and it is a honey.
That is the great thing about audio, they are so many different routes to personal music satisfaction. |
How about the TRON Syren?
Charlie |
Yeah, I have great respect for CJ..owned a bit and loved it! I just get the sense that the company is loosing it's focus. |
