One turntable with two arms, or two turntables with one each - which would you prefer?

One TT with one arm and one cart  . Why complicate life. Enjoy the MUSIC. Good sounding music is enough, you done need perfect sounding music as there is no sich thing

I must admit I have not heard the Panzerholz warps. Thinner thicknesses can bow but I've never seen it warp. 

We use it for professional motorsports and never had a part returned because it warp. We have been using densified wood for a few decades so have some experience. 

We have racks of this material from 3mm-100mm and have used it in many applications. 

Currently I'm building a three teir component rack with 40mm Panzerholz. 

@duramax747 You have a very long experience with Densified Wood and have potentially seen it evolve to the production methods used today.

When I first started to learn about Densified Wood and the applications it is selected for, one memorable info' is that the development has now about a100 years of history. 

I have no doubt, there is a noticeable value to be had from producing a Rack, I have seen owners with a 'stash', start using their Plinth Blanks as Sub Plinths after my introducing them to the positive effects of it combined with a P'holz Plinth.

As stated on previous occasions, it has really been an attractive addition with suspension footers under a few other TT's and Digital Source.  

There are Companies asking for up to a £1000 for a P'holz Sub Plinth, even more if a swirly rebate is milled into it. I am confident my Water-Stained Blanks are as good; the surface markings have a real impact on SQ 😎.

You are fortunate to have a ready access to the materials, in the UK, P'holz has almost stopped being imported, at present a source of importer of a full board is not known. I may have been the last person to import a full board.  

Have you any knowledge of Dynawood, as this is looking to be quite common in the US. 

In motorsports engineers do not like to try other things if what they have works. 

We create our own densified wood to our specs. We consolidate it at a higher psi and are hold times are longer. 

This makes it even more stiff and rigid. 

Who cares. Buy the one which is the best bargain

@syntax 

Why are you posting here - this is the thread for those who think a bit of floobydust and magic material will turn their Thorens 160, Garrard sp25, Teac into the best TT on the planet - bar none.

Some wag here thinks panzerholz is hard - on my CNC machine it is so soft it cuts like butter. Engineered quartz cuts like butter too - these materials are epoxy in reality. 

But what do I know - I've machined, drilled, cut, tapped,  CNC'd both.

Corian was trialled by a few TT guru's back in the 80's and never took off. Maybe this is for the baby boomers who want the 80's back along with their bell bottomed jeans and paisley Viyella shirts.

Now compare this to $16000 pounds for a phono cable from LFD that has a lovely electrostatic inducing plastic shroud, big chunky metal connectors so those micro wires know what a real man looks like and contains an assortment of different wires based on listening over 30 years, and of course they can voice them for you - you can have Freddy Mercury on helium, or Dolly Parton sound like Nat King Cole - now thats a real audio high end product.

Panzerholz is a material like any other. It has it's uses in places which require good rigidity and high damping, like tonearm wands for low compliance cartridges and turntable motor boards. No magic, just engineering.

One turntable with two arms, or two turntables with one each - which would you prefer?

An Inquiry of this type is able to suggest that a New Plith is a requirement.

One turntable with two arms: This as a method has seen many Bespoke Built Designs to suit an individual's specific needs or wanted aesthetic. 

or two turntables with one each: This can have various permutations, where one of them is for the use of Two TT's of the same design used with different Plinth Materials and the same Tonearm and Cart' used for both.

Either of the above, to suit one's specific needs, can require a Bespoke Plinth.

Plinth Materials are always going to surface when an Inquiry lends itself to potentially having to have Bespoke Equipment at hand to realise the method proposed.

@syntax Your statement is correct, My Granite Plinth which weighed in at 9 Stone, was produced as a design using professional services from a Stone Mason Company. There was no Middleman's mark-up, for the era it was produced, it was quite expensive, from recollection approaching £500, I'm sure another £500 was able to be added if Purchased through a Dealership.  

When P'holz was in regular supply, it was approx' £150-200 for a Plinth Blank from an individual supplying Blanks, and even cheaper if sourced as an off cut through another source.

I would have selected P'holz over the Granite, if I knew what I do now, through the experiences of both in use. 

Today I have selected P'holz for Plinth Purposes, over other owned Board Materials and other Structures available to me as a Plinth Material.

As said Sub Plinths in this material can be found selling at £1000, so sourcing and working with a Board of Densified Wood, if very cost effective. 

@dover

Perhaps you should learn to read before your stupidity and keyboard cowardice rise to the surface..

Panzerholz is a very hard surface resistant to impact quite significantly. How it machines is another story. This is what I said about it as far as working with it. Ive been working with it since the late seventies. However I think your density it would appear is far denser....

I find Panzerholz very easy to work with.

Sharp tools and lower Rpms. It machines

very well. Its not hard to work with but it is

hard on bits and blades due to the resins

When routing Panzerholz carbine tooling is necessary. Not carbine tipped. It machines incredible well but you will go through some tooling as it is tough on. tooling.

Yes slowing Rpm down and using a low flute tool, so it does not gum up, helps tremendously , but nonetheless to get a high quality part it takes a certain skill set for sure.

Try performing locking miter joints on 25mm for speaker cabinet.

I took some samples of 25mm Panzerholz locking miter joint compared to 25mm Finnish Birch (Baltic Birch void free) doing the same locking miter joint to an audio show this year.

Every speaker manufacturer I showed it to they were impressed at the difference between the two materials and the locking miter joint.

You would think that the $40,000 and up speakers would use this joint and material, at least for front baffle. It takes veneer and paints incredible well.

We've made numerous 100 mm plinths and you will find yourself in very deep water quickly if you are not careful. The plinths you see using the Panzerholz do not  machine from 100 mm. They instead use 25mm and cut four parts and glue them up. Glueing eliminates the structural integrity of the Panzerholz and yet this is how its done. 

Even Kaiser speakers, if you read carefully their marking description carefully, use Panzerholz in bracing and other key areas. The speaker is not made entirely from Panzerholz. 

Sorry if I got off topic from the point of this discussion. 

I have a 75mm Thick 'Permali' Densified Wood Board.

I am familiar with Panzerholz produced with 25mm and 32mm Thickness Boards.

The individual from Qualia Lab's who has caarried out the Testing on a large selection of materials chosen as a Structure to be used within HiFi, has made it known on regular exchanges that a 10mm Thickness Panzerholz or Permali are able to deliver the ideal Damping and Dissipation properties for HiFi related purposes, especially in relation to what more commonly selected material are able to offer.

A very good friend used a 25mm P'holz Plinth for many years, and then had been able to source a Thicker 32mm Board.

This allowed for the 25mm Plinth to be compared to a 32mm P'holz Plinth, their assessment was the Bass and Air from a presentation was an improvement when using the 32mm material, the 32mm remains in use today, and I hear this whenever I visit.

Another individual used a 25mm P'holz Plinth naked and another which had a Material called Newplast added, each were able to use the same TT > Tonearm > Cart'.

After a long period of trials, the Newplast was removed, as it was said to have created an overdamped sound which was not as attractive as the Naked Material only.

I have moved away from Mass Material Plinths, as the Perception of being overdamped was noticeable, and not dissimilar to the presence detected when certain designs of a Cabinet Speaker are used. Either of these being detected is an unattractive presence I am not comfortable with, when it is detected during a replay.  

There is only one method to discover if a Densified Wood is suitable to an individual as a Plinth or Sub Plinth, and that is to experience it in use.

Why do we seem to think “hardness” is the most important criterion for a material used to build a plinth? 

lewm,

It's not. Just stating the physical characteristic of Panzerholz. That characteristic produces very clean and crisp parts as oppossed to say plywood or MDF. 

I would imagine that the hardness would contribute to the speed at which mechanical vibration travels throught the material (velocity).

I am not in anyway meaning to denigrate Panzerholz, but the prior discussion centered in many cases on "hardness" not just of Panzerholz but of other materials mentioned. And I wondered why. Seems to me that hardness is concomitant with the necessary characteristics of a good plinth material but is not THE reason why a material is good or bad for a plinth. Yes, a plinth ought to be good at dissipating energy put into it by the turntable chassis. By the same token, granite ought to be good too, but many (not including Pindac) have found it to be less good than other choices. Until now, I did not realize that Pindac had a favorable opinion of granite. For that matter, slate might seem to be a good choice, and it is what I chose back when slate was all the rage and OMA were selling slate plinths for a wide variety of turntables. (Given my contrarian nature, I created my plinths for the DP80, SP10 MK3, and Lenco "from scratch" but using professionals to do it the way I wanted.  When I wrote about my slate adventure on line, OMA were not happy with me.) I am satisfied with the outcome, but I am not going to claim slate (Pennsylvania black variety) is the best choice. Around that time, Albert Porter was selling Panzerholz plinths for SP10s Mk2 and Mk3. I’m sure those are excellent too. It’s interesting to me that Panzerholz is good because it’s made by glue-ing together layers of material. Glue creates a boundary between layers. Energy arriving at the glue line would be partially reflected back and partially transferred across the boundary. I am guessing that because the whole is compressed under very high pressure, that potential issue is ameliorated.  Another choice is concrete; I have used large square pavers from Home Depot as audio shelving.  It works pretty well for that.  Would be hard to conceive of making a plinth of it but fun to try.

I have a table with 2 arms (feikert blackbird, Kuzma 4pt and schick 9,6.  Koetsu Onyx on the Kuzma arm, Ortofon SPU grand royal on the Schick.  I also have a Rega P8 with Hana Umami Red.  Phonostage is Manley steelhead so I can plug all 3 in at once. I really like them all.  If you have the room, I say the more the merrier.  I find a time and place for all of these sounds coming from these setups.  Yes the Kuzma/Koestsu is the best but I still have a lot of fun listening to the others and get a different sound and vibe from them.  I would have more turntables if space was no issue.  I think probably 2 turntables is more fun than one with 2 arms.  Get tables you can add an arm to and maybe you can end up with 4 arms!

As Stated within this Thread, I have no desire to return to a Mass Plinth Material as my regular used Plinth for the TT of choice.

It has been made known within this thread from the time (which is 20+ Years ago) that I chose Granite as a Plinth Material; I had been demonstrated around this time both Granite and Slate as a Plinth Material with a same TT model mounted.

Granite was preferred over Slate and that was the route I went down, I even made it known that the personalities demonstrating Granite, might also have been a factor in my decision being made. (It is all too distant and not able to be accurately recollected, the only realness is, I chose a Granite Plinth for a Garrard 401, and shortly after had a SME IV purchased to use with it, and possibly a High Output MC ??).

As stated within this Thread, I have a very heavy Slab of Slate, enough for Plinths for Two TT's or a Multi Arm Design, I have no desire to have a Mass Plinth in use for my chosen TT any longer, so this as an option is buried.

As stated within the Thread I own a Mass Plinth, being Corian, but the TT it is used with is superseded and is used for demonstration purposes only of an Idler Drive TT.

Along with the above I have also heard a few produced Polybentonite Resin structures formed to function as a Plinth Design on a few different TT's, this is a Mass Plinth and measures favourably to Panzerholz for Damping but dissipates quite differently. The Polybentonite Resin Plinths are similar to recollections of other Mass Materials used for a Plinth. To my sensitivities I detect a colouration present not dissimilar to a Cabinet Speaker Colouration, for myself this has become quite unattractive when detected, to the point of feeling something present is overbearing.

Panzerholz as a Plinth material is not an idea that comes from myself, I was introduced to it, and was impressed, on follow up encounters that impression grew, as my recognising the attractive properties on offer during a replay were being proportionally attributed to the P'holz. An extended period of experiencing it and having seen others 'deny it' and then 'adopt it' has affirmed to myself, there is a New Plinth Material I am needing to introduce.

For me it is the airiness and unconstrained flow, the ease the presentation takes on, and the clarity that is very attractive perceptions to be encountered. 

As stated within this Thread, I have a Plinth produced from P'holz, that is out on loan to those who owning a TT that suits the design and can mount their TT on to it.

If their Tonearm of choice is not able to be mounted the offer is available to assist with enabling the individual expressing an interest to hear their TT in a P'holz plinth.

There is not a penny for myself to make from such an offer, it is just an extension of the social activities I engage in with HiFi and other enthusiasts, either known or not known to myself. This is something I would not consider for any other Plinth Material, but for some reason the P'holz material is seemingly worthy.

The only reason I can see, why Plinth Materials are presented as a subject within this Thread, is because a design for Two Tonearms might require a New Plinth to be produced, so an individual contemplating this is to be aware of the options on materials. Indirectly a user of a Typical TT > Tonearm set up, might become curious as to how different materials as a support for a TT > Tonearm might impact on their set up. Plenty of us are from that background, so no need to discourage it.